Discuss AI here (After Engineer mods removal)

[Baelydon]

From my understanding... the NPCs that were using bugged weaponry are in fact disabled/turned off, but what caused the bug has not yet been fixed... the "FIX" itself however is what will be coming in the next point release.

Zac said, "However, the valiant Mark Allen from the Development team has managed to terminate these NPCs in their tracks." Which suggests to me, they are no longer ~active~ in the game but the coding still exists.. just turned off atm.

I could be wrong, but I have not come across any more super-spamming-psychopaths since Zac made the announcement.

Also, It's still too early IMO to judge the AI regardless, and anyone taking this seriously... would most likely have not yet formed an opinion about the AI. It hasn't even been 24 hours since the announcement! I've been in the game quite a bit since then and have yet to fight enough NPCs to feel comfortable in forming an opinion on the state of the AI. I have encountered maybe just enough to know that by now I probably should have come across at least one of the instagib NPCs, (compared to the first 24 hours post 2.1 update), but not enough to feel comfortable forming opinions on them.

So... I am not voting yet, and I suggest others wait a while longer as well. Give it some time, a few days... see what happens. Keep track of your suspicious encounters and finances (for possible tickets), make notes if you have to. We ALL want to enjoy the game, isn't that worth the extra effort on our part? It isn't like we have to put some elbow grease into it... we just have to have the decency to be honest and patient.


Alrighty then... have fun, fly safe!

 

[Sunleader]

Well.
I do appreciate that they have Buffed Turrets a bit.
The new NPCs are Turning Circles Around me.
Its Impossible to Go after them like this if your not in a very Maneuverable Ship.

Their Ability to just Keep Flying Upward or Downward at Insane Speeds needs to be Fixed.
I tried quite a bit Including FA Off but they are still Faster.
Guess its an Offmap Buff they got there.

 

[Thetele]

I just got interdicted 3 times by npc pirate in Python (probably same). He had thermal shock on at least one of his laser weapons. I got voice message about thermal attack and thermal attack and heat increase, info message and icon. Laser that was used against me was also red like thermal shock.

 

[howardtay]

I for one was ready to leave this game and I may still go, but after reading some of the comments and suggestions on this forum I decided to try one of these suggestions, so, I parked up my faithfull 'A' rated Python that cost me an arm and a leg, or around 250M and purchased a Cobra Mark III as one player suggested i.e 'fast ship, knowone will catch you in that!', I 'A' rated the ship and put a hull Reinforcement Package which left 36T of cargo space, oh! and a chaff launcher and 1 shield booster, so if I get killed it's no great loss as it has a low rebuy cost, not like the 11+M when losing my Python, so I didn't load any cargo and just took data deliveries, I've completed 10 of these missions so far, and only been interdicted twice, each time I ran. So there suggestion was correct. That's how you survive now. So please tell me, why did I spend all that time trading backwards and forwards so that I could afford a better bigger ship with bigger weapons and lots of cargo space? I might as well not have bothered, and saved my self all that time. The only problem is the game in the Cobra is pretty boring, and it's just about survival if all I can do is data missions, I don't need cargo bays for that and I can always run away, so no combat, not much use for NPCs or AI then as they can never catch me, the Cobra wouldn't stand a chance against some of these new guys anyhow if they did catch me, and it wouldn't be expensive to rebuy. Elite Dangerous has become a really great game then since the 2.1/1.6 update??? So problems solved! (I think they call that sarcasm).

This is the opening paragraph form the Elite Dangerous Manual, viewable from the ED launcher, anyone spot the deliberate mistake?

Thank you for purchasing Elite: Dangerous! We hope you enjoy the many adventures that await
you in the game’s ever-evolving galaxy.
Whether you’re looking to engage in deadly ship-to-ship combat, discover majestic spacevistas,
make your fortune trading, or just experience life as a starship pilot, Elite: Dangerous
lets you blaze your own trail.
This quick reference guide will help you get started, but Elite: Dangerous is a big game, with
lots of interesting features and systems. To get the most out of your experience, we strongly
recommend that you take time to watch the tutorial videos.
You can access them by clicking on the “Training” button on the launcher, or by visiting:
www.elitedangerous.com
Your ship is fuelled and ready for launch.
Good luck, Commander!

Lets you blaze you own trail?????

 

[Mohenjo]

So, now I'm trapped on a planet. Landed in an unexplored system to poke around on a planet surface, as I've done many times. Return to my ship to find five ships circling overhead, scanning me. So, since I can't fight ONE ship, let along FIVE, I'm stuck, unable to take off.

I can't even tell what they are, as my targeting systems won't target them while I'm landed.

What fun.

 

[Bretzel]

Did a bit of testing today...first with my eagle (love its manoeuverability) : http://coriolis.io/outfit/eagle/02A3A3A1B2A2C2C24240p0n40012525.Iw1-EA==.IwBj4yg=?bn=Eagor , in LowRes , picked my targets , tried to stick to Security : went fine....never lost shields and made 500 k . You can really outmanoeuver basically everything and if not its presenting a pretty small target.

Then for more in my FDL : http://coriolis.io/outfit/fer_de_la...0020m4a5d2b2o66.Iw18aQ==.IwBj4zOGg===?bn=Fear <-forget the PA , used a class 4 MC. Went to HighRes , Little bit of FAOff , but only for very manoeuverable targets , went ok , some Deadly Python used Impulse weapon on me i got told the message and it said Speed reduced,didnt notice loss though and he got down eventually , no elite condas seen...lost shield twice over the course of 40 minutes or so , hull down to 82 % as i left but never was in danger as Security was fast.

So far i have no complaints with the hotfix , will do more testing tomorrow in my battleconda and my mining/pirate python to see if my feeling is right that MANOEUVREABILITY is king against AI atm...

 

[howardtay]

So, now I'm trapped on a planet. Landed in an unexplored system to poke around on a planet surface, as I've done many times. Return to my ship to find five ships circling overhead, scanning me. So, since I can't fight ONE ship, let along FIVE, I'm stuck, unable to take off.

I can't even tell what they are, as my targeting systems won't target them while I'm landed.

What fun.

Well at least your getting the chance to blaze your own trail.

 

[Cmdr Black]

Xbox Cmdr here. Whatever it is FD said they fixed, it's not true. Just had 1400 mj of shielding melted off my Corvette by an Asp Explorer firing magical shotgun beam lasers. I can live with the absurd manuevers of ships that for any human Cmdr would handle like a brick (a la the Type 7) and the new AI. Whatever, I can adapt to the cheesy AI, but     could you guys at FD deal with these magic weapons? Is that too much to ask? Because there is no amount of GIT GUD that can stop these shotgun beam cannon laser hybrids.

 

[Javert]

SJA has been quoted (although quite some time ago) as stating that NPCs never use FA-Off as such but they do use lateral thrusters and "(almost) anything you can do in FAoff you can also achieve with lateral thrust in FA-on" - I remember being a bit surprised to read that but I'm not a combat expert so I don't know, and also things might've changed since then.
(the "almost" is in brackets because I can't remember whether she even said almost or literally everything).

What would also interest me is whether NPCs use lateral thrust in a way that a player can only do if they have analogue controls linked to their lateral thrusters.

I'm willing to bet that the large majority of players only have digital control on their lateral thrusters.

Perhaps SJA would be prepared to do us a livestream and show us how all the stunts that NPC can do are fully achievable by players as well.
(just to be clear, I'm not being sarcastic I suspect she is entirely correct - just would be a nice demonstration to watch).

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Lets you blaze you own trail?????

ED doesn't allow me to own electric guitar or have rockband. So it doesn't let me blaze my own trail?

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Xbox Cmdr here. Whatever it is FD said they fixed, it's not true. Just had 1400 mj of shielding melted off my Corvette by an Asp Explorer firing magical shotgun beam lasers. I can live with the absurd manuevers of ships that for any human Cmdr would handle like a brick (a la the Type 7) and the new AI. Whatever, I can adapt to the cheesy AI, but could you guys at FD deal with these magic weapons? Is that too much to ask? Because there is no amount of GIT GUD that can stop these shotgun beam cannon laser hybrids.

They didn't say they fixed it. It will be fully fixed in upcoming release.

 

[WR3ND]

Yer man there has just totally the wrong end of the stick. It's sad.

Feel free to elaborate. I'm more of a bystander when it comes to PC vs. console vs. casual, at least in regards to the internet debate.

While I consider myself to be somewhat of a gamer, I have rather unique tastes when it comes to the kind of games I like playing, though there is a bit of overlap with pop gaming culture.

...

Based on what I've seen, I'm not really into any of the games that seem to be considered 'casual,' nor really arcade games excepts for a rare bit of fun now and then – not something I'd want to bother with frequently, and definitely not casino games.

I'm not saying there's a direct comparison here either. For example, being an Explorer in ED/H is pretty easy and low risk, though I wouldn't say it's necessarily a form of casual gaming.

 

[FX2K]

ED doesn't allow me to own electric guitar or have rockband. So it doesn't let me blaze my own trail?

I guess you missed out then...

I picked up a canister of rare earth relics...it had an electric guitar inside and a few acoustics. No luck with rockband yet though.
But, I'm stuck in my ship atm, waiting for a vehicle to be implemented to get back to my apartment to check it out because.. who wants to walk that far.

Spoiler

 

[Cmdr Black]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=257892

In here they say "There are a very few select upgrades that will remain for coding reasons but they will be low level and not combat specific upgrades." Just today I've been hit by "impulse attack" and "thermal attack" and witnessed a Cobra Mk III hitting my wingmate with a red modded beam laser. So they state here, that they have removed the combat upgrades. Except that is not true. I won't go to the point of calling it a lie because that implies malice, but it's still not fixed.

 

[howardtay]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=257892

In here they say "There are a very few select upgrades that will remain for coding reasons but they will be low level and not combat specific upgrades." Just today I've been hit by "impulse attack" and "thermal attack" and witnessed a Cobra Mk III hitting my wingmate with a red modded beam laser. So they state here, that they have removed the combat upgrades. Except that is not true. I won't go to the point of calling it a lie because that implies malice, but it's still not fixed.

Not according to FD this was on the forum quite few pages back.

NPC AI update

Hey guys,

We wanted to share a quick update with you to let you know how the investigation into the NPC AI has been progressing after the removal of the Engineers weapons for the NPCs and what the next steps are.

The development team have been hard at work investigating these bugs. To give you a little more information, it appears that the unusual weapons attacks were caused by some form of networking issue which allowed the NPC AI to merge weapon stats and abilities. Meaning that all new and never before seen (sometimes devastating) weapons were created, such as a rail gun with the fire rate of a pulse laser. These appear to have been compounded by the additional stats and abilities of the engineers weaponry. (We don’t think the AI became sentient in a Skynet-style uprising! ). However, the valiant Mark Allen from the Development team has managed to terminate these NPCs in their tracks.

The bug fix is expected to go live in our next point release which is planned for the end of this week/early next week but we’ll have more news on the exact time in the normal patch notes forum.

I would just like to take this opportunity to clarify a few misconceptions. The AI has in no way been reduced, it remains the glorious, improved version from the update. The only action that we’ve taken so far has been to remove the engineer weapons to allow us to investigate the issue and address a key bug. Once this bug fix goes live we’ll be able to see how the AI is performing and then, over time, should we feel that the balancing is right to introduce a very select few high end engineers weapons to the highest ranked NPCs we will investigate that option. However, that won’t be immediately as we want to ensure that the balance is just right.

Edit: Please note this point update will be PC specific and the Xbox One update will need to follow after. We'll let you know as soon as we have more information.​

 

[Lheim]

What would also interest me is whether NPCs use lateral thrust in a way that a player can only do if they have analogue controls linked to their lateral thrusters.

That is my assumption, actually. If the NPCs can pull turns like they do, FA-on, they've almost certainly got very fine control of their laterals.

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

That is my assumption, actually. If the NPCs can pull turns like they do, FA-on, they've almost certainly got very fine control of their laterals.

i have my right stick set to yaw left right and thrusters up down and its analog. not sure how to use thrusters to pull those tight turns though i like to roll and pull up on the nose to turn.

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https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=257892

In here they say "There are a very few select upgrades that will remain for coding reasons but they will be low level and not combat specific upgrades." Just today I've been hit by "impulse attack" and "thermal attack" and witnessed a Cobra Mk III hitting my wingmate with a red modded beam laser. So they state here, that they have removed the combat upgrades. Except that is not true. I won't go to the point of calling it a lie because that implies malice, but it's still not fixed.

i can confirm that made a bug report just literally 20 minutes ago got a thermal attack.

Encountered Dangerous NPC in imperial clipper or courier which interdicted me. boosted behind after the usual exchange of witticisms and wait for cargo to be dropped (i didnt drop any). immediately computer says 'Thermal Attack: gaining heat'. shields took approx 8 - 10 seconds to go down. managed to escape to next system in my journey with some damage.

ive been getting a lot of imperial ships all with pilots above my combat rank this session. one wouldnt even open fire just kept trying to get close or ram. i wasnt ready for boarders so i killed it. had chaff and used it but that one had no weapons seemingly.

 

[Zazzilas Arden]

Two ships gone in an hour, Interdicted by a Python first time, submit, try and boost and jump away. Two shots, thrusters and FSD disabled, sitting duck. Federal Agents message comes onscreen they are responding. Nothing happens. Reboot ship, FSD starts charging, immediately cancelled with a missile hit. Offline again. More Federal Agent messages , coming to help. Nothing. Reboot again, one missile everything offline again. Finally destroyed. 1.5m lost.
Then interdicted by an Asp. Same again , two or three hits, Thrusters disabled. FSD charging, canopy breached. Finally jump away only to be interdicted again, I am now at 16%, Federal Agents arrive, 3 of them., I think OK now I'll be ok. They leave. Destroyed again, I am allied with the Federation and the local faction. No bounty. Another 1.5m lost, never had a chance to defend myself. Doesn't seem to me that Engineered weapons have gone. Lost 3m in an hour with no chance to survive

I'm guessing you're in a slow, fragile trading ship?

Or maybe a small ship without much hull?

 

[Cmdr Black]

The problem isn't that the AI is too hard. It's that the AI is too cheesy. Combat in big ships used to be engaging and fun. Now it's just flipping around and letting the turrets do all the work. Which isn't really engaging, nor is it fun. And to all the people chiding the the traders in "slow fragile trading ships", I guess you are all combateers who don't give a damn that EVERY pure trade vessel is both slow and fragile with the exception of the Type 6 which actually can boost halfway decently. I love combat. All I do is combat. But seriously there are other people besides us combateers in the galaxy. And if they somehow (I don't know how, I would blow my brains out all over the DRADIS but that's just me) find hauling stuff from one place to another enjoyable and relaxing, and can no longer do that now, that's an issue that we should take seriously. Yeah A rating your trader Python and slapping armor on it would do fine. But then it's not a trader anymore. At this point the most viable and defendable trade vessel is either a Cutter or a Corvette. Great if you already have one. Not so great if you don't. A lot of the people saying GIT GUD are people who are like me, with the money and the ships to pretty much do whatever we want. 30mil rebuy? LOL no probs. But remember not everyone has those resources. And they are going to be hurting.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Well, after today's antics, i wish i could change my vote to: AI is too hard.

In fact, i'm beginning to think its insane.

Yes, i know some people are saying how they can take down anacondas in sidewinders with one hand tied behind their backs, and kudos to you. I've not been too bothered by the AI until now (minus the bugs about super rapid fire weapons, which were annoying), but then, i jumped in my CM4 to do some piracy. Lovely ship, but it has some weaknesses... erm... quite a few. But anyway. Headed out to go pew-pew myself some traders. Unfortunately, just as i was locking onto a trader, i got interdicted.

No worries eh? Oh... Vulture +1 other... not sure, didn't even get a look at him.

No way was i taking a vulture on in a CM4, decided to run.

But, sorry, low wake not possible. Mass locked and got a pounding. Damn... i need to high wake! Nope, not enough time, i was dead before my poor synapses could react. Even if i had hit high wake straight away, i don't think i would have made it.

After my last deaths in CZ, i had sworn off combat... but this wasn't me seeking out a challenging fight... the fight found me, and i lost it.

I'm now in the position where the only way I dare exit the station without worry is to get in my A grade Vulture, and even that is risky. Anything else, its a death sentence. I can understand git gud if i'm seeking out dedicated combat. But from what i see so far, i can't even go out in anything that isn't a combat ship.

I have offered advice to those flying trade ships, i've read the guides people have posted post 2.1... I thought it wasn't people adapting... but now, i understand i was wrong. As far as I can tell (and manbe its my own lack of skill), the new AI are brutal, and this is coming from an expereinced player. I shudder to think how new players will fare.

I thought the new AI, until the new patch, would limit my combat activities. Now, after being destroyed near a station (earlier today) and after interdiction, i now realize i can't actually do anything, unless i'm in a full combat fitted ship.

Git gud? Sorry, i'm as good as i can be. I've played long enough. I'm at my personal skill cap. I might get marginally better, but that's it. Fine, i'll stay away from combat... but as things stand, i need to stay away from everything. I can't travel in a non-combat ship, and if the AI remains at its current level, it means i'm locked out of flying anything not combat related.

I can only hope at this point, that SJA either tones things down (which will annoy those looking for harder AI) or makes adaptive AI which matches itself to the skill level of the pilot.... or at least stops sending killing machines against people flying weaker ships, no matter their combat rank.

As of this point, the game simply isn't any fun any more.

To anyone I said they needed to adapt to the new AI, my apologies. I had underestimated it.

 

[Robert Maynard]

As I understand it AA, you're pledged to a Power - which may be a significant part of your problem.

However, if being pledged to a Power means that even leaving a station is risky, I wouldn't like to think what will happen to Powerplay in general - especially with the Dangerous Games coming up....