The Star Citizen Thread v5

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Well they are clearly doing that "something", you just have to follow their game development updates to see that.



I don't see anyone else in the industry doing something like this, for me that is the definition of amazing.



Like I said, nothing short of amazing, and it's not about what I believe, it's what WE believe.



A CIG dev post's here so that makes it interesting for anyone who follows the game as closely as I do. Might as well participate or else my posts wont show up before moderation allows it.

CIG have a habit of over-hyping things that they are planning, then completely forgetting to finish what it was they were hyping like the Star marine 'module'. Oh wait, weeks not months, wait, it's already in 2.0? Wait, it's coming in 2.7? If they can't give solid information regarding the status of game features then what is the point of all those dev videos? Oh wait yes, they're for marketing their next concept ship that costs hundreds of dollars but has no supporting game mechanics and won't see the light of day for at least two years after you've bought it, if at all (merchantman?).

Their development updates are completely worthless as a gauge of progress since they almost never relate to anything that people actually get to play with. It's all geared towards playing with peoples expectations and imaginations while hoovering up money, didn't they sell a mining/newsvan/merchant/ambulance ship a while ago? Still no mining/event/cargo/injury/bailout mechanics? That's odd. Money for nothing.
 
I don't think you know what a promise is or how you can apply that to a crowdfunded project. CIG is amazing, but they are not perfect, nobody is so maybe stop judging them based on unreal premises. Plenty of supporters are happily giving them money because they like what they see. That should count for something.

If you don't like don't give them your money, it's perfectly fine. Just don't judge others for liking it and happily showing their support. Besides, people should be happy that other's are willing to give them more money because the game quality and scope increase means you will get a better value for your money because if you have a basic package you will get everything else they keep adding for no additional cost. That is FPS component, Planetary Landings, More Professions, More and better quality Ships etc etc

They are amazing, you are right. THEIR MARKETING is amazing nothing else so far that i have seen.
Publishers must stand in awe, seeing people paying a subscription for a better newsletter,other REAL games have to deliver a entire MMO and crunch out updates nearly every 3 months to give people a reason to pay that money every month.

Its amazing how people talk about "Open development" but nothing about it is really open only the marketing is open. The most things you hear is marketing talk, their entire shows are build on "what if, cool to have, amazing if" they are dream talkers, absolutly out of reality, telling you what you want to hear, not what you should see next. And if they tell you "its close" or "around the corner and its amazing what we have here", its just to prep up a next big sale to ge t the money in.

"But you dont follow the entire development closely! Didnt you see their last show what they showed its absolutly amazing!" Let me tell you something, BECAUSE i am out of the marketing loop i am able to look at this mess objectively.

I am interested in hard facts, its nice to hype everything up in your own mind and look at the possiblitys or the "future"or being hyped up in that regards...but in the end what comes out of it is what matters.
What i actually see, and can actually "play" doesnt hype me in the slightest.
New ships being announced and sold as concept for the future "game" doesnt hype me in the slightest it shows me something is VERY wrong.
Seeing how subscribers now getting more and more benefits even INGAME or testing makes me wonder where the "no pay to win" is going.

We didnt get ANY value for our money so far, people DREAM the value for their money in.
For gods sake we are at 117 million! 117,000,000 and it grows, but interest outside the hardcore fans is diminishing. Their are no more "new" backers...only old ones that are heavly invested in it. The TOS tells you about their situations, the facts they dont say "Hey we have at this point enough to get the game to a good point, so we stop taking money" ITS the only former kickstarter that still takes money, and outright SELLS stuff that doesnt even exist yet, the worst part they still declare it as "donations" the first donations that require TAXING.

Its not about hating people loving SC and the game it could have become.
Its about disliking people for their blindness to step back and see the overall picture and be more "carefull" and logical rather then emotionell invested into this mess.
To be clear, its not the SC community that needs to prove me wrong, its for RSI/CIG or whatever company is now legally hold accountable to prove that i am wrong. The last years they didnt and i dont see this be any different.

FD proved me wrong when they pushed out a alpha version of ED in what? 6 months after kickstarter ended? with a nearly rock solid flight mechanic and solid progress into beta stage, to the point where i put money on the table for the Premium Beta. Never regreted it so far.
A week after that Arena Commader came out...5 minutes and i putted it away, deeming it unplayable, no fun, wait for them to flesh it out before i look again at it. Now i look at several streamers and youtubers...how "awesome" and "fun" it is...i can seriously only facepalm how enthusiastic they are restarting the game several times because it doesnt even load up. Having to patch always 20gbs for every minor patch they put in...after promising for YEARS getting a reall patching progress done without players downloading the entire game over and over again.

Dont get me started on the patches they throw out..."fixing a fishtank, orientation of npc"... while people becoming hentai tentacle monsters in the game females characters coming next, or die because of NO reason...
Run through walls and horrendous others bugs.

Yes CIG/RSI or whatever is amazing...
 
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JohnMice

Banned
Well fortunately it IS amazing to me and many other's! That's why it continuous to receive so much support in the first place I guess.

I have no problems with delays, Star Marine, or any of the issues mentioned above because I understand that's part of the trade. Meanwhile watching the game accused of being "a scam" , "ponzi-squeme" , "farce" is showing disrespect not just to current backers but fellow staff members that actually take the trouble of answering questions here and elevate the thread for the people that are truly interested in the game.

It's just my opinion and my opinion alone, and I think I'm free to say that Ben Parry is the only one posting info pertinent to me because I follow the project very closely and only people inside CIG can explain more and better than what I know already.
 
I don't think you know what a promise is or how you can apply that to a crowdfunded project. CIG is amazing, but they are not perfect, nobody is so maybe stop judging them based on unreal premises. Plenty of supporters are happily giving them money because they like what they see. That should count for something.

If you don't like don't give them your money, it's perfectly fine. Just don't judge others for liking it and happily showing their support. Besides, people should be happy that other's are willing to give them more money because the game quality and scope increase means you will get a better value for your money because if you have a basic package you will get everything else they keep adding for no additional cost. That is FPS component, Planetary Landings, More Professions, More and better quality Ships etc etc

The issue is star citizen is now number 4 in most expensive games list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_video_games_to_develop (order by development cost)
If it fails space games and kickstarter will suffer heavy repercussions. Nobody wants this game to fail, but everyone is seeing issues that need to be addressed fast, and then theres ppl who have heavily invested in star citizen (investing 50k on star citizen) and frankly the disappointment will be huger deal for them.

The hype bubble needs to burst.
The issues need to be addressed.
It should be games development instead of JPEG concept art development and cosmetic shop development ...
Cig needs to be more open
 
For gods sake we are at 117 million! 117,000,000 and it grows

Don't forget you should expect value equal to 4x of that money.
Which is $468M. Just...yeah. It takes time to fully accept that fact.

cbs3aHj.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZWaBnpSvUk#t=1080s

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...tizen-Thread-v5/page185?p=4099630#post4099630
 
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I don't understand why people care, or pretend to care for that matter, about what random people do with their money, it's not like it's any of their business anyway.

Because I'm one of those people that gave them money. A fair bit of money. Based on the original statements they made about wanting to be different than the "big producers" (Want a good laugh? Go and read the "Pledge" they originally gave to us). I don't give a sweet patootie what you do with your money. But after three years of increasingly deceptive behavior on their part, and outright lying on the part of some backers about the current state of the game ("hours of stable play" "dozens of people in a single instance" "procedural planets are in!"), I don't feel the slightest bit sorry about telling potential backers to either hold off until CIG actually releases something even close to what they promised, or at the very least wait until they offer another free fly period and make their own decision. The last thing they should be doing is taking the word of any of the history revisionists currently shilling for CIG, or taking anything on the CIG website at face value.
 
Well fortunately it IS amazing to me and many other's! That's why it continuous to receive so much support in the first place I guess.

I have no problems with delays, Star Marine, or any of the issues mentioned above because I understand that's part of the trade. Meanwhile watching the game accused of being "a scam" , "ponzi-squeme" , "farce" is showing disrespect not just to current backers but fellow staff members that actually take the trouble of answering questions here and elevate the thread for the people that are truly interested in the game.

It's just my opinion and my opinion alone, and I think I'm free to say that Ben Parry is the only one posting info pertinent to me because I follow the project very closely and only people inside CIG can explain more and better than what I know already.

I don't mean any disrespect, so just take it as words from someone who actually was with this project from the start or almost from the start 2013.

CIG has missed every single milestone, announced by CIG, not one did they manage to reach? sure that is amazing, its actually an outstanding performance.
Outside the CIG / SC bubble people would call it mismanagement or plain incompetence. Maybe even say that those who say this, just don't understand game development. They are right, I don't understand game development at all. Budgets are just a word, time lines and pesky gates/milestones are just something evil publishers use. The master(s) must have peace to work in infinite amount of time, because reasons.

I would like to be a game developer in my next life, or something similar. Because they clearly don't live by the same rules like the rest of the population on this planet.

Sorry but I'm not impressed, I'm far from impressed, actually I'm shocked, but then again, if you are give a pile of free money and there is no end to it, who cares
about timelines and keeping your promises.

Its a farce, plain and simple.
 
Because I'm one of those people that gave them money. A fair bit of money. Based on the original statements they made about wanting to be different than the "big producers" (Want a good laugh? Go and read the "Pledge" they originally gave to us). I don't give a sweet patootie what you do with your money. But after three years of increasingly deceptive behavior on their part, and outright lying on the part of some backers about the current state of the game ("hours of stable play" "dozens of people in a single instance" "procedural planets are in!"), I don't feel the slightest bit sorry about telling potential backers to either hold off until CIG actually releases something even close to what they promised, or at the very least wait until they offer another free fly period and make their own decision. The last thing they should be doing is taking the word of any of the history revisionists currently shilling for CIG, or taking anything on the CIG website at face value.

Don't forget the LTI scam.
 
not just to current backers but fellow staff members that actually take the trouble of answering questions here and elevate the thread for the people that are truly interested in the game.

Ben Parry is the only one posting info pertinent to me because I follow the project very closely and only people inside CIG can explain more and better than what I know already.

We're all "truly interested" in the game, that's not the exclusive domain of blindly optimistic fans. A lot of us would probably even like to see the game succeed. A lot of us are "current backers", because that includes those of us who pledged for the kickstarter back in 2012, not just the ones who continue to buy some arbitrary quota of jpegs every week. But some of us consider the current state of the game - its playable state, not as it exists in the minds of the fans - to be a long way short of "amazing", given the time and money that's been spent on it, and in the face of increasingly impressive and high-profile competition.
You don't think it's at all odd that you're coming to another game's forum to get pertinent information from CIG staff members?
 
Don't forget the LTI scam.

Oh, I didn't forget it Neo, just didn't want to see yet another revisionist post about "they never promised that" (show quotes), "as long as they keep making money for the game" (show sliding door etc), "well things change" on the litany of broken promises they've made. Or the way they've essentially ensured anything on their website gets scrubbed or deleted when it gets found out to be patently false. I mean, seriously, just delete stuff from the site and then pretend it never existed? For an internet gaming company, that's truly "amazing"
 
The issue is star citizen is now number 4 in most expensive games list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_video_games_to_develop (order by development cost)
If it fails space games and kickstarter will suffer heavy repercussions.
Nobody wants this game to fail, but everyone is seeing issues that need to be addressed fast, and then theres ppl who have heavily invested in star citizen (investing 50k on star citizen) and frankly the disappointment will be huger deal for them.

The hype bubble needs to burst.
The issues need to be addressed.
It should be games development instead of JPEG concept art development and cosmetic shop development ...
Cig needs to be more open

Call me a nihilist...but I kinda want the space genre to contract a bit. While I like the revenue mass appeal brings...I don't appreciate the simplification (to put it nicely) of future space games so as to grasp at the wallets of every last drooling button mashing idiot.

KS will leave us eventually, anyway. It will be replaced by something that isn't so prone to fraud (this is not a criticism/accusation of SC).
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
*Mod hat off

Want a good laugh? Go and read the "Pledge" they originally gave to us

You mean this one?

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/257642/can-anyone-find-the-pledge

One year after, I basically gave up.

It is, to all effects, a completely isolated webpage with no direct link from the RSI site main menus and that no one cant get to unless he/she knows the direct link. It is almost as if CIG didnt want to hear about it anymore or didnt want any newcomers to know about it at all.
 
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I'm sure it is Viajero, but I still refuse to accept the new TOS so don't go anywhere near the CIG website anymore. I'm sure that clause would never hold up in court, but honestly, considering what an echo chamber it's become, I don't miss it a bit.
 
I'm sure it is Viajero, but I still refuse to accept the new TOS so don't go anywhere near the CIG website anymore. I'm sure that clause would never hold up in court, but honestly, considering what an echo chamber it's become, I don't miss it a bit.

I haven't quite understood this stance.

Do you intend to get a refund?

CIG is not going to relax its TOS

Are you waiting for CIG to make a more complete game, and then you will agree to the TOS you find unacceptable?

I don't mean to be an agitator, but why not just get your refund now rather than play this game with the TOS...or just play the game, knowing your money is already lost.
 
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I haven't quite understood this stance.

Do you intend to get a refund?

CIG is not going to relax its TOS

Are you waiting for CIG to make a more complete game, and then you will agree to the TOS you find unacceptable?

I don't mean to be an agitator, but why not just get your refund now rather than play this game with the TOS...or just play the game, knowing your money is already lost.

I'm putting together a refund request, I had been waiting to see if maybe they would wake up on the TOS, but have given up on that. I don't expect the refund request to go anywhere honestly, based on the responses from people that have submitted them recently, but the CIG response opens up some interesting aspects.

Since they claim that they refuse the refund based on the fact the "pledge" has been used, I'm pretty sure that would require them to demonstrate 1) where the money has been spent, which could only be done by releasing their financials, and 2) if the game is fully funded (their own claim) and they are still bringing in money, then why are they unable to do the refund. The claims in the form response they use, about the game being "substantively delivered" are easily enough disproved. Have to wait and see what happens, but I'm sure they'll make it as difficult as possible, especially given how they've tried to divest themselves with the CIG/RSI nonsense, or completely abdicating themselves of any accountability.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
*Mod hat off

I'm sure it is Viajero, but I still refuse to accept the new TOS so don't go anywhere near the CIG website anymore...

You can still click safely on my link above, as long as you dont log in I think. :p

If you have the patience to follow the thread you ll find the story it tells interesting, trust me.
 
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While I have some sympathy for many (but not all) your suspicions/accusations, you would have more credibility if you gave a date when you expect this to happen. To be reasonable, let's say a date RANGE. It would help focus minds & give you some credibility. (But I'm not actually sure you're worried about looking credible, or just enjoy spreading Fear Uncertainty & Doubt to justify your earlier posts.)

It's a little like predicting the next stock market crash. I can't tell you the day or month even, but I can tell you that based on fundamentals and historical timelines it will be in the next 18 - 24 months. Hence why I pull out all our money and put into cash last fall. Major corrections happen every 10 years or so and frankly I started to see some of the same craziness with home prices, etc. that I saw in 2006 - 2007. (Which I also cashed out in 2007). Now I cashed out at about 16,800. You'd say I cashed out too early if you looked at the market today. Let's see where we are in two years from now. (And if you have a financial advisor worth a damn they're telling people the same thing to cash out now and be willing to hold onto that cash for the next 24 months especially if you may need that money for something).

Oddly enough I came to the same conclusions as Smart did about the same time last year. I thought his numbers were off a bit. Myself and a few other people independently did what is called a competitive analysis where you try to figure out your competition's costs as though we were competing with CIG. There were was a range of reasonable estimation that they will have spent between $45M - $60M by the end of 2015 sans Squadron 42 production costs. That was the big X factor was how much did the hollywood actors cost. I mean we can go to the SAG guidelines for interactive capture rates, what Rockstar paid it's lead actor for GTA IV, etc. to get some idea. But usually hiring a name people will recognize costs far more than the SAG minimums. I've seen estimates of that cost range from $5M to $20M. My own numbers was that by the end of 2015 they would have spent $50M + SQ42 production costs last year so I put my final number at about $60M - $65M with burn rate of around $3M per month. Some people like to use $2M a month, other $2.5M, but I'll stand by my numbers of around $2.8M - $3M per month. That's how much cash is leaving the building as it were. So to see the burn it would be $3M - $X collected that month. And this is assuming that the numbers on the website are accurate and all that jazz. Until conclusively proven otherwise I will assume those numbers are valid. Given those numbers my estimation is they had enough funds at the end of last year, so long as they continued to collect revenue at a rate of about $1.2M per month, to continue on until about this time next year.

Now the big question is when do reach that point in the product life cycle where the numbers start to fall off a cliff? That is harder for me to pin down like the stock market. There is going to come a point where there are fewer and fewer people willing to back the project in its current state (we've already reached that point). So all the people who are willing to back will have done so. Next comes the point where those who have backed have reached their spending limit and are unwilling to contribute more. (We are reaching that point). Now there has been a predictable $10M - $15M funding bump in Q4 every year coinciding with the anniversary sales. If it was one issue I had with Smart's numbers last year it was that it seemed to fail to take that into account.

Now I believe that this year is mission critical. If things get delayed again it may be the death nail because that market crash is coming. And when it does a lot of people are going to find themselves out of work again without a lot of savings and those who still have jobs aren't going to be spending as heavily especially on a speculative gamble. Already I've known several people who have or are selling accounts at 60% of the retail value of their ships. They spent $3,000 on the game, but due to life changes are seeking to try and get $2000 back from it.

I look back. In 2012 when I backed I was single, I had just sold a company for millions of dollars and my only job was rehabbing a condo I bought. I'd work 4 - 5 hours in the morning, then spend the rest of the day playing video games or going to movies or out with friends because...damn I just spent 5 years of my life working 80 hours a week with basically no vacation. Today I'm married, with a house, and more than likely young kids by the time Star Citizen comes out. (Edit: and also a day job now, but I work basically 9AM - 3PM most days) Now I reached my spending limit back in 2013. $500 to me doesn't matter much one way or the other. I'll likely spend more this year on a PS4.5 & Playstation VR than I have on Star Citizen. Hell I spent more last year on FSX & X-Plane just last year than I have Star Citizen.
 
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