The Star Citizen Thread v5

[Discourse]

nope*, they said, and I quote from memory "our tech is better than anything you have seen anywhere today" (quoted from memory).

No excuses, please deliver or stop with these ridiculous claims!

* it was developed in 2 years

I'm not debating that CIG said their procedural tech was better than anything out today, I remember them saying the same thing. It's a brave thing to claim, but we haven't seen it so maybe they are right. I'm just pointing out the video you linked to is a flight simulator that uses scenery packs, not procedural generation to create their worlds. You can see how to create a new map here, it is a very manual task - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M41bBEw7_OM. When CIG claim to have the best procedural tech when it comes to creating worlds I believe they are comparing themselves to similar products such as ED, NMS, etc.

* Only the REX Sky Force 3D add-in was developed in two years, not the underlying game that it is plugged into. It even says in the description of the video you linked to that it is a plugin for "FSX, FSX Steam and Prepar3D" (MS Flight Simulator and Lockheed Martin respectively)

 

[eminus]

reality check

 

[ripptide]

You know what will be next eminus....

"But they have Exploration...." - fly out to point in space, recover data from space wreck, fly back. Rinse, repeat...

"But they have Salvage...." - fly out to point in space, recover box o' noodles, fly back. Rinse, repeat....

But they have Bounty Hunting...." - fly out to one of carbon copy stations, find outlaw, shoot them, fly back. Rinse, repeat...

 

[Artemus]

*Mod hat off



You mean this one?

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/257642/can-anyone-find-the-pledge

One year after, I basically gave up.

It is, to all effects, a completely isolated webpage with no direct link from the RSI site main menus and that no one cant get to unless he/she knows the direct link. It is almost as if CIG didnt want to hear about it anymore or didnt want any newcomers to know about it at all.

That was a really depressing read Viajero.

 

[Ozram]

You know what will be next eminus....

"But they have Exploration...." - fly out to point in space, recover data from space wreck, fly back. Rinse, repeat...

"But they have Salvage...." - fly out to point in space, recover box o' noodles, fly back. Rinse, repeat....

But they have Bounty Hunting...." - fly out to one of carbon copy stations, find outlaw, shoot them, fly back. Rinse, repeat...

    MVP!

 

[eminus]

You know what will be next eminus....

"But they have Exploration...." - fly out to point in space, recover data from space wreck, fly back. Rinse, repeat...

"But they have Salvage...." - fly out to point in space, recover box o' noodles, fly back. Rinse, repeat....

But they have Bounty Hunting...." - fly out to one of carbon copy stations, find outlaw, shoot them, fly back. Rinse, repeat...

yeah the power of sunk cost fallacy

dont forget about

"But we got persistence now...." - truly amazing because you get to save the state of what you wore before you logout and yeah the awesome wanted level wherein you get a bounty because someone rammed your ship lol

 

[Tanker4444]

My discomfort with it all is why do people still feel the need to financially support SC with pledges/donation when it was fully funded at $65,000,000

.......

If Pledging is solely about raising the money to develop the game, that goal was achieved long ago.
Why the need to have a stretch goal for the Caterpillar to be in game, then after that stretch goal is reached a concept sale for the caterpillar later after all goals have been reached.

It is never enumerated what all this additional donation sums are needed for.

After all they are pledge drives, asking for donations.
You don't ask for donations if you don't have a need.

Actually, I can answer that I think.

The truth is that the game was not funded at $65 million. What I mean by this is that as long as the money keeps coming in CR can keep spending it to make the game better. In theory. The idea is that as money comes in, more can be spent on improving the game. This is what we were told all along. While at first this sounds great after a few minutes of thought you realize that its a budgeting and planning nightmare to do any project under such conditions, so they likely planned for a much larger amount and used that as the projected budget. That explains why they are so aggressive with the sales, they need to get to that projected budget asap no matter what.

Beyond that, and I´m just going to come out and say it, CR doesn´t strike me as a particularly efficient guy when it comes to developing. Every game he´s made has gone over budget, some to an alarming extent. Lets not get into the movies. Based on that I think that internally, CIG is aiming to get somewhere between 200 and 250 million as the budget for SC. I agree that´s not what we´ve been told but I think its closer to the reality of what is going on inside CIG. In CIG´s place I can´t say I´d do differently and would keep that to myself as well, as it´d definitely scare off potential backers.

 

[ripptide]

Actually, I can answer that I think.

The truth is that the game was not funded at $65 million. What I mean by this is that as long as the money keeps coming in CR can keep spending it to make the game better. In theory. The idea is that as money comes in, more can be spent on improving the game. This is what we were told all along. While at first this sounds great after a few minutes of thought you realize that its a budgeting and planning nightmare to do any project under such conditions, so they likely planned for a much larger amount and used that as the projected budget. That explains why they are so aggressive with the sales, they need to get to that projected budget asap no matter what.

Beyond that, and I´m just going to come out and say it, CR doesn´t strike me as a particularly efficient guy when it comes to developing. Every game he´s made has gone over budget, some to an alarming extent. Lets not get into the movies. Based on that I think that internally, CIG is aiming to get somewhere between 200 and 250 million as the budget for SC. I agree that´s not what we´ve been told but I think its closer to the reality of what is going on inside CIG. In CIG´s place I can´t say I´d do differently and would keep that to myself as well, as it´d definitely scare off potential backers.

I'd agree with your analysis Tanker; unfortunately the specific problem you've identified of "more money, more dev" just means that even at 200-250 M they'd just keep re-factoring. Honestly, I think they missed the boat completely with not building a good, stable base game, including all the core elements and then expanding from there as long as the money continues. Heck, they could even have reduced down to some lower number of systems then applied the proc gen down the road. It might have given them a bit more credibility and some additional time to look at switching engines or developing their own. But they've pretty well locked themselves into a death spiral and are hemorrhaging credibility. Only so long they can count on the existing backer base to keep piling money in, they've already lost many large backers, and I don't believe they're getting near enough new backers to make up the difference.

 

[eminus]

Actually, I can answer that I think.

The truth is that the game was not funded at $65 million. What I mean by this is that as long as the money keeps coming in CR can keep spending it to make the game better. In theory. The idea is that as money comes in, more can be spent on improving the game. This is what we were told all along. While at first this sounds great after a few minutes of thought you realize that its a budgeting and planning nightmare to do any project under such conditions, so they likely planned for a much larger amount and used that as the projected budget. That explains why they are so aggressive with the sales, they need to get to that projected budget asap no matter what.

Beyond that, and I´m just going to come out and say it, CR doesn´t strike me as a particularly efficient guy when it comes to developing. Every game he´s made has gone over budget, some to an alarming extent. Lets not get into the movies. Based on that I think that internally, CIG is aiming to get somewhere between 200 and 250 million as the budget for SC. I agree that´s not what we´ve been told but I think its closer to the reality of what is going on inside CIG. In CIG´s place I can´t say I´d do differently and would keep that to myself as well, as it´d definitely scare off potential backers.

NO, what we were told was that the additional stretch goals should not be called scope creep because of "reasons". CR specifically stated that the additional stretch goals(in it comes the money too) will not I repeat will not affect the delivery of the game.

 

[FuriousMeow]

Haha, yes, budget. By the by, nice to see brand new forum members showing up to rabidly defend such a bunk product. Hi! None of you are pulling the wool over, as it were.

So, budget... since Chris Roberts can afford to make some silly ridiculously asinine costumes to make himself look like the Pillsbury Doughboy from the future - all on the backer's/founder's/customer's/rube's, which I'm one of - money, they don't need more money. They, if it was properly managed and not run by an incompetent charlatan with money diverted to give a pointless marketing position to a person that has no clue on the product while only focusing on how to make more sales and a community manager that fumbles with the most basic of sentences a front seat so they can both get IMDB entries when they deserve nothing more than jobs in a Comcast call center, have had more than enough money to make at least Squawking42 which is never what I was even interested in because originally that was a lesser part of the project and Star Citizen was the core focus way back when before amnesia hit.

AAA game companies have made more with less money, the same AAA game companies CR and etc were going to save us from. Except now they need more, and MORE and MORE and MORE monies. Because... well there are a plethora of excuses but they all amount to a group of Dung Beetles' navigating the desert with their cargo of various excrement by the light of the Milky Way Galaxy where they actually have millions of stars to navigate by while STAR Citizen has at least 100 st... oh... that's right...

 

[Tanker4444]

I'd agree with your analysis Tanker; unfortunately the specific problem you've identified of "more money, more dev" just means that even at 200-250 M they'd just keep re-factoring. Honestly, I think they missed the boat completely with not building a good, stable base game, including all the core elements and then expanding from there as long as the money continues.

Would they try to push the scope past $250 M? I supposse they could but hopefully by then they would be locked to something to the point that they could not just scope creep some more.

NO, what we were told was that the additional stretch goals should not be called scope creep because of "reasons". CR specifically stated that the additional stretch goals(in it comes the money too) will not I repeat will not affect the delivery of the game.

I understand that what you say is what CIG claimed. I am telling you that my own analysis points me to think they lied ("fudged") and were misrepresenting the situation so as to not scare off backers.

Haha, yes, budget. By the by, nice to see brand new forum members showing up to rabidly defend such a bunk product. Hi! None of you are pulling the wool over, as it were.

..........
AAA game companies have made more with less money.........

First off, I don´t think I´d consider myself as a SC defender. I remain hopeful about it but have seen too many obvious red flags for too many years to defend it blindly. I advise existing backers on how to lessen their SC financial footprint and suggest to new backers to stick to the cheapest main package until they´re aware of all the facts, both good and bad.

And yes, AAA companies can and have done more than what we have now with less. Going in we all knew that CR was incredibly inefficient with projects, if anything I´d expect SC to cost at least 50% more than if it was made by a publisher. The problem was, no publisher was going to do it. So you got a simple supply and demand problem here, CR was offering at a 50+% extra cost while the publishers were not offering anything. We wanted it so we threw in our lot with the only offer in town.

 

[FuriousMeow]

First off, I don´t think I´d consider myself as a SC defender. I remain hopeful about it but have seen too many obvious red flags for too many years to defend it blindly. I advise existing backers on how to lessen their SC financial footprint and suggest to new backers to stick to the cheapest main package until they´re aware of all the facts, both good and bad.

And yes, AAA companies can and have done more than what we have now with less. Going in we all knew that CR was incredibly inefficient with projects, if anything I´d expect SC to cost at least 50% more than if it was made by a publisher. The problem was, no publisher was going to do it. So you got a simple supply and demand problem here, CR was offering at a 50+% extra cost while the publishers were not offering anything. We wanted it so we threw in our lot with the only offer in town.

That defender thing wasn't actually directed at you. They know who they are. I was just shooting off into the wild, because at least some of those who organized this catastrophe are listening or have eyes/ears here.

However, I don't expect SC to cost 50% more if a publisher did it. I expect it would be reigned into what could be done with less money because they wouldn't let a budget of $65mil, or $116, or... yikes.. even more fly because they'd want a proof of concept to even put $1. So publishers are out of the question as to "what if" but it may have happened if it had someone competent holding the reins and making sure it stayed on track.

Instead, well... we've got an out of shape "I'm gonna be a movie director" prancing about on stage in a costume, or two, funded by the funds that are so supposed to make the BDSSE instead of the Biggest Disappointment Spaceholder Shazbot Ever which is exactly what this is fated to be.

 

[ripptide]

Would they try to push the scope past $250 M? I supposse they could but hopefully by then they would be locked to something to the point that they could not just scope creep some more.




I understand that what you say is what CIG claimed. I am telling you that my own analysis points me to think they lied ("fudged") and were misrepresenting the situation so as to not scare off backers.





First off, I don´t think I´d consider myself as a SC defender. I remain hopeful about it but have seen too many obvious red flags for too many years to defend it blindly. I advise existing backers on how to lessen their SC financial footprint and suggest to new backers to stick to the cheapest main package until they´re aware of all the facts, both good and bad.

And yes, AAA companies can and have done more than what we have now with less. Going in we all knew that CR was incredibly inefficient with projects, if anything I´d expect SC to cost at least 50% more than if it was made by a publisher. The problem was, no publisher was going to do it. So you got a simple supply and demand problem here, CR was offering at a 50+% extra cost while the publishers were not offering anything. We wanted it so we threw in our lot with the only offer in town.

Do I think they could even make it to 200M? Doubtful, because they'd need to actually produce something meaningful to pry a lot of wallets open at this point. CIG pretty well had their pants pulled down in the playground and their backside smacked at E3, and I think they're so far behind the competition at this point they won't be able to recover. ED is steadily eroding all the aspects that brought a lot of the old backers into SC, and they can see tangible progress.

Don't know how old you are, but the whole thing reminds me far to much of the movie Sunset Boulevard, with someone continuously acting in a delusional fantasy world, unwilling to accept reality, spurred on by a group of sycophants unwilling to break the illusion. Seriously, Mark (what have I got myself into) Hamel going back for even more mocap, and they haven't shown they can integrate the current stuff yet? And I'm sure he's not doing it at base SAG rates. Not to mention the fact the whole mocap thing was supposed to be an internal development, with dev money already spent on equipment, only for them to go to the most expensive mocap facility around.

 

[Osmanthus]

I think the scope is currently somewhere between "you guys want specifics lol" and "I could really do with a fifth yacht"

 

[Osmanthus]

Do I think they could even make it to 200M? Doubtful, because they'd need to actually produce something meaningful to pry a lot of wallets open at this point. CIG pretty well had their pants pulled down in the playground and their backside smacked at E3, and I think they're so far behind the competition at this point they won't be able to recover. ED is steadily eroding all the aspects that brought a lot of the old backers into SC, and they can see tangible progress.

Don't know how old you are, but the whole thing reminds me far to much of the movie Sunset Boulevard, with someone continuously acting in a delusional fantasy world, unwilling to accept reality, spurred on by a group of sycophants unwilling to break the illusion. Seriously, Mark (what have I got myself into) Hamel going back for even more mocap, and they haven't shown they can integrate the current stuff yet? And I'm sure he's not doing it at base SAG rates. Not to mention the fact the whole mocap thing was supposed to be an internal development, with dev money already spent on equipment, only for them to go to the most expensive mocap facility around.

Seems to me like Roberts is about ready for his close up

Or will be soon, at any rate

 

[Calebe]

I saw someone saying that CIG should release some ships only purchasable in game with earned in game money. I doubt it will happen they want, actually I think they need the money. Contrary to the game is fully funded statements, I doubt if all cash stops flowing in they could finish anything. Also can you imagine the outcry. Wait you mean there are ships I can't buy I have to earn them, and horrors of horrors they may be as good as ships you bought. Not only that but imagine if you could earn the money in game in just a couple months of casual game play. Now I see people screaming if that happened, I also see others screaming if the price is so high no one playing casually will ever be able to afford the ships (unless you use real cash, buy in game credits and use that). Oh in case some are new you can actually buy game money with real money (but no that is not pay to win, no way, no how, not possible. Why because it is magic money it can't buy power only ships and weapons and clothing of course). Nope that isn't buying power, it isn't pay to win as I said, nope it is just having fun without playing the game you just buy your way to the best, but do NOT say pay to win. It can't be because they said so and that is all you need to know, now stop thinking about it.
.
Why am I so cynical? I bought a Constellation, and a 300I remember when jump drives were not going to be on all ships? I do, but a few would. Now I already owned the Connie so bought the 300I exploration version why? Because it comes with a jump drive. We are talking very early days and that was one of the very very VERY last LTI ships ever to be sold. Wondering how long I was involved in Star Citizen? Remember the Gold Ticket holders? The fuss over them and the 'extra' they get? Well no one knows what the extras are, and I wonder who remembers the Gold Ticket holders. Well I know I have a Gold Ticket. Talk early backer well I am one of the originals, and I am frustrated at the slow pace, bug ridden mess the game is so far. I was in the hanger and never played a single minute of anything else. I am to disappointed in what I have seen, all the bugs and the lies. Star Marine due in weeks not months then told it is already in game, and now told it is being worked on. Which is it? I saw it defended to hell and back in these threads saying how Star Marine is in game, but if it is, why is it being worked on and we all know it isn't as advertised and was a huge lie, saying it already is in. Not only that but people bought it hook line and sinker. People need to take off the blinders, see what is release, analyze it and be honest does it work or have so many issues they need to fix before making another jpeg to sell. Fix the game, make it work no more warping through walls, walking in space without a space suite.
.
Calebe

 

[nosscar]

Haven't you guys figured this out yet, the game is just a front, there will be no game, all the funds have really gone into making the next Wing Commander movie, that was the real plan all along. lol (now don't take me too seriously, will you)

 

[Atreiden]

So 5 years and $117mil in funding, 300+ employees and they have yet to deliver one star system, have no cargo or trade mechanics, no mining and only barebones fps and flight combat. I have seen more impressive mods, made for free in people's free time, in less time than this janky crysis mod.
They don't even have a patching system yet, you just download the entire game every time there is a new version and it resets their much touted persistence (the most barebones save feature and nothing more).
I have no idea how people still have confidence in this project.

 

[claymore2408]

So 5 years and $117mil in funding, 300+ employees and they have yet to deliver one star system, have no cargo or trade mechanics, no mining and only barebones fps and flight combat. I have seen more impressive mods, made for free in people's free time, in less time than this janky crysis mod.
They don't even have a patching system yet, you just download the entire game every time there is a new version and it resets their much touted persistence (the most barebones save feature and nothing more).
I have no idea how people still have confidence in this project.

That's not the only shady thing here, one of the mods linked a URL to a thread on the RSI forum.

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/257642/can-anyone-find-the-pledge/p7

Initially; the topic was about "the pledge" not shown via the main webpage or whatever. It then expands into more and more horrible stuff.

Apparently, there's a paywall for subscribers and backers, if you're a subscriber you get to "know" more than people who aren't.

"In contrast, what makes you think you are SO valuable that your precious subscriber money entitles only you to it's benefits instead of it being shared with the rest of the community, the way backer money is? My $x000 contribution doesn't just benefit myself, it benefits the community, which includes yourself and your paper boy who just spent his month's fee. And I'm ok with that. Yet, at the same time, you feel your $10/month subscriber money is so exceedingly valuable that it should only benefit you and not that poor paper boy? Indeed, please enlighten."

I've only pledged about £25 the minimum to get the game etc, I have no animosity towards Chris or RSI as a whole, nor affection for the project itself -- meaning it really doesn't bother me if they are taking donkey years to produce "some content". But the way they are treating their backers...who backed a HUGE SUM is very, very shady.

 

[nosscar]

I have a genuine question now though, out of curiosity, not saying i will do it, but....

I pledged to star Citizen back in 2014 i think it was, with a starter package around 35-45$, afterwards i bought a AMD gpu, i got a free package with that, so i now have 2 game packs, both with sqd 42, and a promised star Citizen download, i could probably have 2 characters in game if it ever launched.

I have not even installed the game for months, not seen or signed the new TOS, so could i request a refund for the paid for package, and yet still keep and play the free package. Just curious if this would be possible, just your opinions please.