Elite Babysitter...

[JeffRyan]

Just as an interesting social experiment to BOTH sides of this discussion, can any of you admit to something the 'other side' have said that has made you pause or agreed with?

I'm sure there are others but Adept has made several comments along the lines that the NPCs should be a challenge unto themselves and dealing with them shouldn't be boring! Ala:

You are stuck in the adverserial EVE mentality. This is not that game, nor will it be. Those "hiding" will face NPC pirates, guite possibly much worse numbers of them than the people in instances with high numbers of other humans.

Not the only thing, but the first that came to mind as I was looking for an example.

 

[warbaby2]

When it comes to lobbying, that's pretty much what Jeff is doing here... Trying to gather a few more voices to his cause by bringing it to the general forums. The DDF itself is remarkably unpolitical, and the only time we get any politicking is when people open threads like this one.

Which is pretty much moot, since the general forums will not really be taken into consideration by FD... they will, however, be read by people that don't know much about the game yet.

 

[Saxxon]

When it comes to lobbying, that's pretty much what Jeff is doing here... Trying to gather a few more voices to his cause by bringing it to the general forums. The DDF itself is remarkably unpolitical, and the only time we get any politicking is when people open threads like this one.

Despite the majority voting in favour of the transponder option, I doubt there'd be much of a problem if the devs decided it didn't work well and they went with something else. Just a small number of outliers on either side of the fence who may stomp and moan about things not going their way.

Obviously he felt the trend was tilting to far in one direction there or it never would have come out here.

If it is so balanced in there and the devs make their own decisions it shouldn't be a problem and this just gives more discussion to a fairly important topic.

 

[Shepard]

So we're discussing how we handle cheating and bad behavior in the DDF and it's becoming clear to me that EVE Online is dominating the development of the social side of ED.

Step by step, each of the measures being taken (grouping mechanisms, ignore feature, the on/off PC-NPC transmitter and now the almost universal outcry for policing of bad behavior I'm seeing dominating the DDF discussion) is reasonable and logical. But as a whole it's taking the 'Dangerous' out of Elite Dangerous.

It seems the playerbase wants every possible contingency of having to deal with people they find disagreeable dealt with.

I think this might be a problem with our society in general, we try to protect ourselves and our children too much from hurtful situations that they end up far too sheltered.

Ironically I totally disagree with griefing, I'm a fervant anti-griefer on EVE and I believe that people should strive to be decent human beings all of the time and apologise for it when they fail.

But this continual step by step layer of protection after layer of protection surrounding Elite Dangerous's systems and playerbase just seems ridiculous

This DDF topic is far from over and if policing is instituted I don't necessarily disagree with it, but that isn't the point...

Each step in and of itself isn't necessarily wrong, people decry the British Nanny State, yet that seems to be what we're wanting from Elite 'Dangerous' and Frontier.

Protect us from the bad people out there!

PS. This /isn't/ an attack or a sideswipe at the current DDF proposal either, although I've argued against policing bad behavior I'm not actually that bothered, it's more a problem I have with the mindset I'm seeing dominate as a sociological reaction.

It's great that you have such a faith in humanity and it's decent, better part. Unfortunately the online gaming world is full of opportunistic, underage morons who's first priority is to spoil the game for everyone around them because that's what gives them giggles. Online gaming opens the door for EVERY kind of anti-social behavior and if there is no appropriate 'policing' the game will pretty much turn into the perfect world of griefing.

While in your eyes specific freedoms in game would be a the beginning of fun gameplay in their eyes it would be the reason of coming up with yet another little trick, deception, annoyance in other words anything that they are limited from doing in eras life by laws and law enforcement.

Every decent game IMHO has to have opposites like everything in real life. For every crime there should be some kind of punishment, either it's low or bounty hunting or etc. If there is only one side then it will quickly turn into chaos and nobody wants that.

 

[Saxxon]

Which is pretty much moot, since the general forums will not really be taken into consideration by FD... they will, however, be read by people that don't know much about the game yet.

Which in itself makes it be taken into consideration.

Some people would say that sounds like an insult for them to consider their forums not important.

Unless your a community manager or represent FD in some capacity you might want to let them talk for themselves.

 

[Andrew Sayers]

Just as an interesting social experiment to BOTH sides of this discussion, can any of you admit to something the 'other side' have said that has made you pause or agreed with?

I wouldn't call myself a particularly strong proponent of any one position, but I must admit you made me realise I'd been assuming there will be more people drawn towards the "all" group than away from it. I stand by that assumption and can provide some circumstantial evidence, but I'm not sure I'd bet a game on it.

 

[Phaserlight]

I thought this thread was going to be about someone offering their services as a babysitter for parents wanting to play the next alpha/beta phase, or people looking for babysitters for the same.

 

[timbow]

For me all this argument is moot. The game should be a hybrid of PvP and solo exploration gaming. You shouldn't know who is human and who is a NPC, 90% of people you meet aren't going to go into a furball with you, and if they do, you're just going to have to win. It's space, it is supposed to be anarchic and frontier (pun kind of intended) in a wild west kind of way. If you want to explore space and not be disturbed then don't go online or download Space Engine

If done right, griefers are going to attract the attention of the police, and if it is the same as the original BBC Micro version, the police are going to be hard to beat because of numbers, ship capability and weapon strength. In this version IIRC the Coriolis Stations shoot back as well. That just leaves the out and out cheaters, that has to be dealt with quickly by the devs closing exploits when they're found, but they're generally going to be in a minority I think.

If you want to become Elite, you have to kill other characters, if you don't you don't.

Lastly this isn't a limited CoD map where the annoying kid can find and hound you, it'll be quite easy to go somewhere else and not be found again.

I don't want a game hobbled by layers of rules about what I can and can't do and have Frontier banning people, I would prefer a game where players (PC and NPC) who break the "law" get a criminal record and are dealt with by the in-game mechanics. They'll be forced to anarchic systems where they'll have to deal with pirates and the like, or they'll just quit...(hopefully)

I also don't think it is up to the user base to make demands on this kind of thing. I think it is up to Frontier who will have the stats at hand to make sensible decisions about how to adapt the game keeping it playable for all.

Too may rules kill games!

 

[JeffRyan]

When it comes to lobbying, that's pretty much what Jeff is doing here... Trying to gather a few more voices to his cause by bringing it to the general forums. The DDF itself is remarkably unpolitical, and the only time we get any politicking is when people open threads like this one.

That's fair actually and I admit it. The reasoning though is unlike a lot of the points I felt that this was a major major point in the game and I felt it was going the wrong way. A little in the wrong direction (in my opinion) and I wouldn't have said anything. I'm far from unreasonable. I've actually been reasonably quiet in the DDF, usually replying to a few things I disagreed with in principle (often with Andrew Sayers ).

However I felt things were going far too far in the direction of anti-griefing to the point where player vs player is being seriously compromised. And I think that the multiplayer aspect of the game is fundamental to its success.

So yes, I am lobbying and not to shape the game to my vision, but in the hopes of trying to arrest and perhaps return the balance to somewhere in the middle. I honestly think some of the current proposals if implemented will harm the game, particularly in the long term.

I hope if you ever saw something you felt was SERIOUSLY wrong and not just not something you disagreed with, you'd shout it from the rooftops to try and fix it.

I'd tried the reasonable approach and argued myself hoarse in the original transponder thread (which is where the proverbial straw that broke my back was laid down). So I've taken to other methods, this being only one of them.

It's hard to believe but this isn't about ego or about trying to make ED the game I want, but about what I honestly believe to be in the best interests of everyone, Frontier and players (old and new) alike.

PS. Ironically a lot of people allegedly in 'my camp' actually disagree with me on a few things, the transponder being one of them.

 

[timbow]

I thought this thread was going to be about someone offering their services as a babysitter for parents wanting to play the next alpha/beta phase, or people looking for babysitters for the same.

Also, this ^

 

[Phaedra]

Just as an interesting social experiment to BOTH sides of this discussion, can any of you admit to something the 'other side' have said that has made you pause or agreed with?

I hope I've been fairly consistently arguing in favour of not making major changes to the systems set out in the DDA until they've been tested on a scale large enough to be a guide to how the final game might play. I've therefore chosen comments from either side of the fence that I can agree with.

Seriousy though: ED is no PvP game, it never was meant to be. It's a decentralised multiplayer game where the players have to adhere to all the same rules the rest of it's (simulated) universe has... they are only part of the simulation, not the focus of it.

I have been excited for this title for a while now and was watching with keen interest and seeing the concerns Jeff had with this post and knowing how some other games have been basically destroyed by devs being pressured by certain groups lobbying for certain game mechanics. I feel ED is important enough for me to put the effort into making sure that there was a counter argument to balance what I see as an important topic that will be vital to the success of ED.

 

[Phaedra]

I wouldn't call myself a particularly strong proponent of any one position, but I must admit you made me realise I'd been assuming there will be more people drawn towards the "all" group than away from it. I stand by that assumption and can provide some circumstantial evidence, but I'm not sure I'd bet a game on it.

I think the last time someone ran a poll related to this issue, the majority of people said they were content to play in the all group.

 

[Slawkenbergius]

Which is pretty much moot, since the general forums will not really be taken into consideration by FD... they will, however, be read by people that don't know much about the game yet.

I don't think that's true at all. The devs read and digest the general forums, but just don't promise to read every post. What's said here does matter.

I hope if you ever saw something you felt was SERIOUSLY wrong and not just not something you disagreed with, you'd shout it from the rooftops to try and fix it.

Did you not see the hissy fit I threw over microtransactions?

 

[JeffRyan]

[Redacted].

We've been warned before and this has on the whole (considering the size, the topic and the provocative title...) been a well-behaved thread...

 

[Andrew Sayers]

Did you not see the hissy fit I threw over microtransactions?

Or what happens whenever I get a whiff of Witchspace?

I've actually been reasonably quiet in the DDF, usually replying to a few things I disagreed with in principle (often with Andrew Sayers ).

<shakes fist>

I'll get you one day, Ryan!

Seriously though, there's a good reason I'm particularly sanguine about the transponder thing:

No decision has been made yet!. I'm kind of hoping we get to try a few different models, but no promises.

Given how contentious the issue is and how easy it seems to test, I'd be very surprised if we didn't get at least one build with it always on, one always off and one with some kind of toggle. If any option turns out to be completely unworkable, the evidence will be clear soon enough.

 

[Saxxon]

We've been warned before and this has on the whole (considering the size, the topic and the provocative title...) been a well-behaved thread...

It has been quite an excellent discussion. These personal attacks don't bother me. I will let the mods handle it.

Out of understanding to the one gentlemen/lady I walked back my statements as his/her post was clearly a reply based on strong feelings of emotion instead of fact so maybe we can continue the debate in an intellectual manner as opposed to other options.

 

[Adept]

Just as an interesting social experiment to BOTH sides of this discussion, can any of you admit to something the 'other side' have said that has made you pause or agreed with?

I'm sure there are others but Adept has made several comments along the lines that the NPCs should be a challenge unto themselves and dealing with them shouldn't be boring! Ala:



Not the only thing, but the first that came to mind as I was looking for an example.

I wish I was on the DDF, I really do, but I didn't have that kind of money to throw in the pot

 

[JeffRyan]

I wish I was on the DDF, I really do, but I didn't have that kind of money to throw in the pot

The big benefit is having at least a voice in the crowd.

 

[Adept]

The big benefit is having at least a voice in the crowd.

I'm a game dev, a Sci-Fi nut and I played Elite first time when I was... 11 I think. Just imagine how much I wanted to be there on the inside track

 

[JeffRyan]

I'm a game dev, a Sci-Fi nut and I played Elite first time when I was... 11 I think. Just imagine how much I wanted to be there on the inside track

Though sometimes you have to leave the inner house and return to the steps as a demagogue...