The Star Citizen Thread v5

[Asp Explorer]

It's just so 'meh' we had things we could fly in crysis 1. faking aerodynamics via a bunch of properties varied per ship.... it's just not impressive to me I dunno about anyone else

But the immersion! The fidelity! The humungous bounding boxes! The repeating landscape! The completely useless rotating body that will melt it's own wings! The new clothes store! The new and improved Underpant model! trillion-poly hands that will wear ten-poly gloves! IN-GAME BANDS!!!!!!!

 

[Neo-ST]

It's just so 'meh' we had things we could fly in crysis 1. faking aerodynamics via a bunch of properties varied per ship.... it's just not impressive to me I dunno about anyone else

I don't know if it will feel impressive or not, however, it's completely irrelevant until they fix the base flight model, which is space flight model.

 

[Osmanthus]

I don't know if it will feel impressive or not, however, it's completely irrelevant until they fix the base flight model, which is space flight model.

More to the point, it's irrelevant till it's in the game.

 

[ZeeWolf]

In case you missed it ATMOSPHERE TURNED ON

Are you sure the fonts big enough guys?

 

[FuriousMeow]

Oh, okay. Atmospheric flight that because the ships that look more aerodynamic get fluffed up nonsense to make them manuever better in atmosphere based on a bunch of non-aerodynamic flight based "physics" but instead based around "well, it looks aerodynamic!"

None of these ships have airfoils, the ones with wings are oddly placed and, I mean no point in really going further these things are space craft with random things stuck on to make them look cool and some are smoother than others but they are not designed for flight.

Flight is more than looking aerodynamic looks, it's speed, lift and thrust fighting drag and gravity using either airfoil based wings with additional stabilizers - such as vertical and horizontal - or a lifting body design that is essentially one giant airfoil but not incredibly efficient which still uses airfoil based wings with protruding horizontal and vertical stabilizers. Also, in atmosphere maneuverability is dictated through a combination of things with are the above plus control surfaces which - tada! - these ships only have thrusters. So their atmospheric maneuvering should actually be solely based on thruster output - instead... more nonsense.

Sure, sounds good to those that don't know but these ships are basically going to perform the same in atmosphere or not - actually even better in atmosphere because there is more for the thrusters to thrust against such as the atmosphere.

The biggest factor for maneuverability, in or out of atmosphere, is going to be a combination of ship size/mass/weight, thrust output, thruster location, and the only element that will come into atmospheric flight is truly just how much drag these things put out but the majority of that penalty would simply be in straight away speed.

 

[Osmanthus]

So what they mean by "planets have atmosphere" is "we tune the ship's controls when we're close to a planet". Fair enough, but not exactly the super simulation CIG likes to portray its game as running. At least they (say they) use dynamically calculated drag coefficients.

Sure, sounds good to those that don't know but these ships are basically going to perform the same in atmosphere or not - actually even better in atmosphere because there is more for the thrusters to thrust against such as the atmosphere.

Eh, this isn't necessarily true, because thrusters don't produce thrust by "pushing against" things, they produce it by momentum flux. Yes, an ambient pressure will push against you... but that will reduce the thrust of the engine.

 

[FuriousMeow]

Eh, this isn't necessarily true, because thrusters don't produce thrust by "pushing against" things, they produce it by momentum flux. Yes, an ambient pressure will push against you... but that will reduce the thrust of the engine.

I understand that. There is nothing in space to "push against" but in atmosphere there is an additional boost to the thrust due to heating of the air around the jet - which also depends on the fuel type used so who knows, especially since they are making things up on the fly.

But also, let's take into account something like the Scythe - they have to go with fudged numbers for that thing to work properly in atmospherics or else it's going to be using a lot of additional power just to keep it straight.

 

[Osmanthus]

I understand that. There is nothing in space to "push against" but in atmosphere there is an additional boost to the thrust due to heating of the air around the jet - which also depends on the fuel type used so who knows, especially since they are making things up on the fly.

That's interesting, I've never heard that. Do you have a source?

 

[FuriousMeow]

The thing that really gets me is that they have $117 mil at last count, I'm sure its grown more and they could have actually done something truly revolutionary that would have set them apart from the rest by building models of their ships and putting them into wind tunnels to get the drag data for each model and done some atmospheric testing in some actual flight testing programs just to understand how they actually would react. Instead they are fudging it based on looks and guesstimates because they put a lot of that millions of dollars into making their offices super cool, Chris Roberts prancing about in silly costumes, investing money into awful shirts to resale for way more than they are worth, setting up everyone in staff with top of the line hardware - hardware they don't even know how to use or get setup as evidenced by last Christmas holiday shoot where the X52, and while not top of the line its still not a Xbox controller that they whipped out seconds later, that they didn't even know how to work and... it's just ridiculous that there's more to keep pointing out in how mismanaged this whole fiasco is.

Last year I was starting to wonder what the hell was really going on, after I kept re-downloading the full package and I kept having to redo my controls, and then TrackIr no longer works/is supported because this state of the art engine doesn't support it, and then the Arena Commander comes out and I put my control inputs back in, which is a mind boggingly pain in the ass with a HOTAS because they don't even have that working properly, just to do some testing and am completely dismayed by the year's progress and then the ultimate slap in the face is the mini Persistent Universe that is simply a backend database to keep track of money, what you bought, and state of things.

They keep showing off things to wow those that apparently don't play other games and haven't seen this stuff before, but none of it is new. No, it doesn't matter that at some point in the next decade it may eventually come together because, just like everything else they've said they've done to date and haven't but it will be here by end of last year.. end of this year... end of next year.. end of..., they will be passed by other developers because of gross mismanagement and incompetency.

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That's interesting, I've never heard that. Do you have a source?

There was the hot and cold rocket motors for the Me-163 and the hot motor performed better in atmosphere as I recall due to high temps.

I may have also misinterpreted this: "Combustion is most frequently used for practical rockets, as high temperatures and pressures are desirable for the best performance, permitting a longer nozzle, giving higher exhaust speeds and better thermodynamic efficiency." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_engine

 

[Osmanthus]

There was the hot and cold rocket motors for the Me-163 and the hot motor performed better in atmosphere as I recall due to high temps.

I may have also misinterpreted this: "Combustion is most frequently used for practical rockets, as high temperatures and pressures are desirable for the best performance, permitting a longer nozzle, giving higher exhaust speeds and better thermodynamic efficiency." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_engine

Not to get too off-topic, but that refers to the temperatures of the gases in the nozzle, since high temperatures lead to higher sound speeds so a given Mach number exhaust implies higher exhaust velocity -> higher momentum flux -> higher thrust.
e: this temperature is a function of the combustion process (in chemical rockets), but presumably fusion engines or whatever tech they have in SC also have a hot propellant. (Obviously not all rockets need hot propellants, but that's beside the point) In-atmosphere, ambient pressure is likely to work against the engine.

They keep showing off things to wow those that apparently don't play other games and haven't seen this stuff before, but none of it is new. No, it doesn't matter that at some point in the next decade it may eventually come together because, just like everything else they've said they've done to date and haven't but it will be here by end of last year.. end of this year... end of next year.. end of..., they will be passed by other developers because of gross mismanagement and incompetency.

Chris Roberts still seems to think it's the early 90's, as others have said

 

[briguy168]

Don't be daft. I don't understand how you can pretend that simulating a galaxy one-to-one, complete with celestial mechanics by the way, is not distinct from a play area with a few tens of systems.

Which Evochron is being discussed Mercenary (the newer one) or Legends? If it's the former, I do believe that game is PG, if it's the latter than you are right.

 

[Osmanthus]

Which Evochron is being discussed Mercenary (the newer one) or Legends? If it's the former, I do believe that game is PG, if it's the latter than you are right.

PG? Are you quoting the right person?

 

[Cmdr Cheese Wedge]

I imagine SC's chariots will perform in atmosphere as much as they do now.

Badly.

But then I don't understand flight modelling, but as FuriousMeow pointed out with 117 million plus, a 3d printer for the models and a wind tunnel for testing they'd be able to nail down a solid FM for atmospheric flight, you know for the fidelity.

 

[Osmanthus]

a 3d printer for the models and a wind tunnel for testing they'd be able to nail down a solid FM for atmospheric flight, you know for the fidelity.

Wait, is this for real?

 

[frostypaw]

Wait, is this for real?

It might be? Dunno - is another game doing it? Maybe we should?

 

[Cmdr Cheese Wedge]

Wait, is this for real?

No, no idea but common sense would dictate that's what you would do.
At least that's what I would do with all that cash.

But then I don't understand flight modelling.

 

[briguy168]

That just teaches me they have no spine. Their entire purpose in employment in that position is to manage the relationship between those above and below them - if their solution to that is to just dump it on you then they're a total waste of space and money.

We used to have someone excellent at that in my first big-solo company role and they canned her role. Couple of years later the entire cross-multimedia nationally live platform was a spiderweb mess without the guiding hand to stop management screwing with it - was part of what slowly broke the company. They were just upset she said no when they wanted to mess it up

Judging by what you said, seems that the sensible thing to do, if you want to have a career, is do what your higher-ups want you to do. Doesn't matter if your boss doesn't have a spine or not, they wont have a job if they rock the boat too much while also disregarding what the execs want. That is the hard truth because I'm going through that right now. My CIO just got canned because he wasn't a yes man. He rocked the boat and always challenged the current president of our organization.

In the nicest possible way (always a bad sign when someone starts like that) that method of discussion is known as being an ass. Let's treat each other as friends and colleagues here and assume we don't speak with forked tongue.

Suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here because I look at as a way to have a true intellectual conversation. Generally speaking the whole point of a debate or argument is to exchange opinions about topics. Everyone evaluates those opinions and sees if they align with their preconceived opinions. On the internet this doesn't happen; people tend to have a "you are wrong and I am right" mentality when it shouldn't be like that. The purpose of having a debate is to exchange point of views with facts. Debates and arguments should never be about trying to change the mind of the other person or persons. However, this is starting to get off topic so yes I agree that we shouldn't be hostile.

 

[briguy168]

If someone refuses to even believe that they're wrong, then replying with anything other than a straightforward point-by-point response will not be any more effective. It just makes you look like a .

I'm mostly wrong half the time. I do try to be as accurate as possible though

 

[Osmanthus]

I'm most wrong half the time. I do try to be as accurate as possible though

You mean you're wrong all the time, and I'm right all the time, but at least you're aware of it half the time

^this was a joke

 

[Artemus]

I imagine SC's chariots will perform in atmosphere as much as they do now.

Badly.

But then I don't understand flight modelling, but as FuriousMeow pointed out with 117 million plus, a 3d printer for the models and a wind tunnel for testing they'd be able to nail down a solid FM for atmospheric flight, you know for the fidelity.

And then the turbulence will be so real! You'll be able to see your wings flex and then snap as you plummet towards the ground.

^ actual SC model*





*Nope!