The Star Citizen Thread v5

[Asp Explorer]

More accurately would be: "You just don't understand CryEngine"

You are right. But then, I don't need to

That leads to an interesting question though. Is a 25Gb full content delivery update seen as a patch in CryEngine?

Is it still CryEngine, or is it now fully recognised as CR's lovely WhateverEngine?

If I had to deliver 25Gb of content to thousands of customers as an unfinished, untested, unknown, unreliable, purposeless and infinitely repeatable traffic devourer - I'd have to sack myself.

 

[CMDR_Orlando]

You are right. But then, I don't need to

[big grin] Exactly!
[h=1]ChrisRoberts Interview Gamescom 2016 Star Citizen Italia[/h][video=youtube;xILkUz9QAJQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xILkUz9QAJQ[/video]

 

[Zetta]

Oh look, it's the man from Del Monte, he says Yes!

(to everything)

 

[Asp Explorer]

Very entertaining

The way that CR is absolutely convinced that VR can be implemented in a non-intrusive way is quite simply amazing.

The procedurally-generated stuff, well, it all comes back to artists at the end of the day apparently. Same gamepleay for the lovely 4 planets of the Stanton system. Except clothing stores.

Procedural Generation doesn't offer hight fidelity and is repeatable. Chris - what is the last digit of pi?

 

[Skizomeuh]

Procedural Generation doesn't offer hight fidelity and is repeatable. Chris - what is the last digit of pi?

You don't understand not understanding procedural generation. Chris and believers are much better at it you'll ever be.

With such a naive and primitive picture of PG in the head, sure Chris can argue sincerely he's revolutionizing the thing. If only it was the only technical domain where he shows the same outdated and dismissive point of view...

 

[Voivod]

I think I finally understand game development:

If you have so little to show 173million and 5 years later just make 9 billion videos of things you plan to make sometime in the future and make sure your fans spam them in every thread about SC.

When you've actually made something, make sure you refactor it a few times and tell people Fidelity made you do it.

It's really brilliant. o7 Croberts.

 

[ianw]

Ok, but they don't actually have 121 million kicking around, and they never have had that much. I'd be way more interested in their outgoings than their (alleged) income.

The other thing is, why do you guys applaud this? This is what's holding the game back, what keeps them stalling, the amount of money received in total has never, ever resulted in better gameplay or a better game from CIG, not once. They literally clap their hands because it gives CIG even more room to go slow and prolong ship sales.

All those stretch goals, all those extra promises and add ons, if they were a proper development company with a sense of honour or even loyalty to their customers they would have been implemented along the course of normal game life cycle evolution anyway, much like how they still add things to the game after the last stretch goal was met long ago (they mean nothing to CIG, its all honey and jam to attract the ants), but why bother giving the public what they paid for when you can stall, drag your feet and continue charging ridiculous prices for dlc for a game that hasn't been released? Because the public are complete and utter mugs and will throw vast amounts of money at molten lead if they thought they'd get something nice back out of it.

This is why the fans get laughed at, this is why they get a rep for being culty, everytime one of them congratulates the (apparently) not evil development company that hasn't developed anything yet, the dev company just laughs in their faces and stomps all over them with teasing vids, constant hints at things that will compensate for the wait (they won't), things that will live up to each and every one of their dreams (they won't, it's software so it's easy to understand there is no 'one that fits all' solution, completely impossible in practice due to people being different to each other) and the daft fans, with all their singing the praises and dancing around over 'what might be' can't see what's right there in front of them, the money counter is apparently directly linked to their imaginations. You're still going to get a $20 million game, no where near $120 million.

I feel they need shaking, violently, or dousing in ice cold water to get them to wake up, am I alone in this?

That's the thing - it's highly unlikely they have a giant pile of cash sitting around. The monthly outgoings with all these studios and 330 odd people must be exceeding their incomings by a decent amount. So any reserves are being constantly whittled away.

Then you have to factor in all the one-off expenses such as mocap and A-listers and then their because we're worth it attitude when it comes to spending in general (coffee machines idiot designer furniture etc.).

It's like they have a squillionare relative who - if they took the rose coloured specs off - could see that they've spent years making stuff to sell whilst being persistently unable to fix the fundamentals and would cut off the allowance to get them to get their stuff together.

That's where this take your time attitude comes from - but it seems to be incompatible with actually finishing the game.

So they really have no choice but to talk up the future and sell more jpegs because that's all that's keeping them going.

If 3.0 miracle patch drops on time and it all works then you might think that finally it's not just - so I'll guess we'll see.

It just seems a giant ask to go from the current mess - to 2.6 with Star Marine (even though it will presumably still be a separate module) to 3.0 - within the space of four months at least one/two of which will be spent polishing a extravaganza for Citizen con purposes.

 

[Shinimas]

That's the thing - it's highly unlikely they have a giant pile of cash sitting around. The monthly outgoings with all these studios and 330 odd people must be exceeding their incomings by a decent amount. So any reserves are being constantly whittled away.

Then you have to factor in all the one-off expenses such as mocap and A-listers and then their because we're worth it attitude when it comes to spending in general (coffee machines idiot designer furniture etc.).

It's like they have a squillionare relative who - if they took the rose coloured specs off - could see that they've spent years making stuff to sell whilst being persistently unable to fix the fundamentals and would cut off the allowance to get them to get their stuff together.

That's where this take your time attitude comes from - but it seems to be incompatible with actually finishing the game.

So they really have no choice but to talk up the future and sell more jpegs because that's all that's keeping them going.

If 3.0 miracle patch drops on time and it all works then you might think that finally it's not just - so I'll guess we'll see.

It just seems a giant ask to go from the current mess - to 2.6 with Star Marine (even though it will presumably still be a separate module) to 3.0 - within the space of four months at least one/two of which will be spent polishing a extravaganza for Citizen con purposes.

3.0 will just be a single scripted mission and some empty PG planets. It's not a lot. Releasing SQ42 would prove they are able to create a real game, but... well, we all know that won't happen any time soon.

 

[ianw]

3.0 will just be a single scripted mission and some empty PG planets. It's not a lot. Releasing SQ42 would prove they are able to create a real game, but... well, we all know that won't happen any time soon.

Well it would at least show that;

A - they did something they said they would do in the timeframe they said they would - a 1st.

and

2 - they could actually make what they've done work.

But I get where you're coming from.

Though I do wonder why if they think they can fix stuff for 3.0 they don't just fix it now and build on fixed stuff.

I can confirm at this point I genuinely don't understand game development - before anyone asks.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

How the hell do they even manage to have 25gb in that entire "game"? Much less a patch.

Billions and billions of polygons....and thats it,I bet that the rest of the script is about 300meg.......

 

[Soliluna]

This you are the ship stuff sounds so weird and defensive... mindlessly parroting some dated gibberish Chris Roberts said once to sneer at other games as if it even MEANS anything. In Elite, playing as a person piloting a ship in incredible VR where i'm free to look around the cockpit at will and experience everything with proper scale and depth is one of the most immersive experiences available in modern gaming. I look down and see my body and my hands on the HOTAS. In what universe am I roleplaying as a ship!? It's the purest possible vision of "Holy cow, I'm flying a spaceship!" that has yet been made by humans. To pretend SC's janky avatars clipping through geometry and then clunkily animating into a cockpit is somehow superior to ED as they are just doing dreadfully pedestrian, old timey you are the ship sniff sniff is quite funny to read considering the reality of the situation and how they are in fact pioneering immersion in space sims and leading the industry in VR... Not just talking about it, not just promising it to get some extra cash on the back of Oculus' early success and then changing the subject, DELIVERING IT FROM THE START.

Plus we all know "space legs" are planned and even the staunchest SC fan will PROBABLY admit to themselves (tho certainly not to us, mustn't show lack of faith!) that ED's season 3 (and probably 4!) will arrive well before SC launches, reaches beta, or even adds most of the gameplay systems needed.

Getting the better ship is the goal? Elite HAS a goal? Nonsense. For tedious min maxers, sure. I've been playing for ages and never bothered with Anacondas and the like. The game is just as fun in a Sidewinder, they don't cripple you like the Aurora or gate ships behind paywalls. Paying for seasons makes way more sense... if I saw a Frontier store with $500 ships on it, exit stage right!

You are the ship! Another one of CR's moronic constructions that need to be chucked in a dumpster along with his drop-in co-op, VR support, mod support, and 2014/2015/2016 release dates. Maybe that stuff made sense to spout in 2013, but it's time to retire the catchphrase. VR happened and CR missed the bus because a dog ate his engine.

With all that being said, I would love to see some of the variety of SC ships in Elite. A lot of them would not really be worthwhile as combat vessels at all but just the variation in cockpit location and shape adds some variety visually that separates the mono tonal ship shape that is throughout practically every design in ED. If someone had to ask me one word to describe the ships in Elite it would be "triangle".

Not to say that Elite ships are not beautiful, just that I would have named them after Triangles rather than Snakes.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

With all that being said, I would love to see some of the variety of SC ships in Elite. A lot of them would not really be worthwhile as combat vessels at all but just the variation in cockpit location and shape adds some variety visually that separates the mono tonal ship shape that is throughout practically every design in ED. If someone had to ask me one word to describe the ships in Elite it would be "triangle".

Not to say that Elite ships are not beautiful, just that I would have named them after Triangles rather than Snakes.

Well, Sidey, Cobra III, Viper III, Python, FDL and Anaconda are direct nods to the '84 Polygons. I'm sure I've forgotten one; beyond those you have T7 vs iClipper vs Eagle, vs Orca... They don't have the "rule of cool" going for them with sticky out bits and rotating cockpits, that is certainly true.

 

[Soopyyy]

Billions and billions of polygons....and thats it,I bet that the rest of the script is about 300meg.......

Perhaps they didn't get the memo about normal maps?.... in 2002.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

Perhaps they didn't get the memo about normal maps?.... in 2002.

Well at the end we can joke about it but in a way CIG with this kind of "work" justifying their ammount of development cost.....

 

[Soliluna]

Well, Sidey, Cobra III, Viper III, Python, FDL and Anaconda are direct nods to the '84 Polygons. I'm sure I've forgotten one; beyond those you have T7 vs iClipper vs Eagle, vs Orca... They don't have the "rule of cool" going for them with sticky out bits and rotating cockpits, that is certainly true.

Aye - my favourite ship design happens to be the Diamondback which looks like something you would find on a construction site in many ways. It's different and has a personality that really gels with me.

I understand what FD are going for I just hope they tear up the rule book when they come around to create some new ships. The Beluga for example, the cockpit looks cool but the outside is pretty boring. I was hoping for it to look a lot more like the concept art which isn't bad at all. I find the random orange light on the side really odd too. I doubt I would buy an Orca or Beluga anyway.

In SC I think the Hull E is cool - would love to see something like that in ED - kinda makes me think of the Diamondback in many ways. A very form follows function style ship, where design is almost like an afterthought to the ship manufacturer.

The Endeavour is pretty cool too, would love to have me a few greenhouses to grow some Onionhead for my long trips.

 

[Tippis]

That leads to an interesting question though. Is a 25Gb full content delivery update seen as a patch in CryEngine?

Is it still CryEngine, or is it now fully recognised as CR's lovely WhateverEngine?

Nah. This has nothing to do with CryEngine — it's all CIG.

CryEngine's pak files are basically just zip files with a couple of custom headers. Manipulating them is trivial. Hell, unless the developer does something spectacularly unnecessary, you can use any old tool to fiddle with them. If you really feel the need to write your own tools for some reason, any of about a bajillion existing free or licensable zip libraries will let you do that.

Updating zip files has been possible for decades; updating CE pak files has been possible since CE was invented. The engine tools include components to create patches. If you don't want to use those for whatever reason, there are multiple third-party solutions available to you.

There is exactly one instance where you would not be able to do proper updates and just send entire pak files: if, for some reason, you don't trust the client-side patcher to actually manipulate the files. There is no instance where this should be a problem. Arguably, if you want to encrypt the files so people can't just open, and you're so paranoid about someone getting into them that you don't want to leave the encryption keys in the patcher because then they could be diked out, you might want to keep all that server-side. But zip encryption is trivial to beat so being precious about the encryption is pointless — if someone wants to get to your assets they will and trying to break into the patcher is the last solution they'll use. Anything more fancy makes it very bad for real-time content access, and the assets will still sit unencrypted in memory where they're freely available for anyone who wants to get their hands on them. And CIG's files aren't encrypted anyway (they're signed). So really, none of it applies in this case anyway.

…and of course, the main question is why on earth you'd use pak files for an in-development version to begin with. You use them to make it neat for the final commercial release — before that, it is far easier for everyone involved to just have the assets sit free in a regular directory structure. Packaging them up just creates pointless problems with the constant updating you do during development.

 

[CMDR_Orlando]

3.0 will just be a single scripted mission and some empty PG planets. It's not a lot. Releasing SQ42 would prove they are able to create a real game, but... well, we all know that won't happen any time soon.

It will have a little bit more content that that, 40 locations between the Stanton System 4 planets (Hurston, Crusader, ArcCorp, microTech + Delamar), space stations, asteroids fields, derelict ships etc.

Spoiler

Well it would at least show that;

A - they did something they said they would do in the time-frame they said they would - a 1st.

They already delivered 2.0 when they said it would. End of 2015 so it's not like that is accurate statement.

With all that being said, I would love to see some of the variety of SC ships in Elite. A lot of them would not really be worthwhile as combat vessels at all but just the variation in cockpit location and shape adds some variety visually that separates the mono tonal ship shape that is throughout practically every design in ED. If someone had to ask me one word to describe the ships in Elite it would be "triangle".

Not to say that Elite ships are not beautiful, just that I would have named them after Triangles rather than Snakes.

Ship variety is always a plus because you have different ships for different tastes, the biggest ship yet ingame is the StarFarer that could be considered a medium-small ship in the grand scheme of things:

Spoiler

 

[VidarSnipes]

It will have a little bit more content that that, 40 locations between the Stanton System 4 planets (Hurston, Crusader, ArcCorp, microTech + Delamar), space stations, asteroids fields, derelict ships etc.
http://i.imgur.com/Ia2irlg.jpg

Source on that? Until it's released, it's all just speculation. SC 2.0 didn't even have everything that was shown in the Gamescom video, why should it be any different for 3.0?

 

[Glock_N_Load]

Where do you go for help on control setup. I have a Logiteck G710 keyboard and Extreme 3D Pro joystick. Nothing I do seems to change anything. Pull back on the stick/nose goes down, push stick forward/nose goes up, yaw left it rolls left, yaw right/it rolls right....etc. If I could learn to change these, it might turn on a light (if I still had one)

 

[CMDR_Orlando]

Source on that? Until it's released, it's all just speculation. SC 2.0 didn't even have everything that was shown in the Gamescom video, why should it be any different for 3.0?

It was said for the first time in the article by the german magazine PC Games: http://epaper.pcgames.de/de/profiles/5c3b36d592b7/editions/42b1bd34f4d4b28462c1

Information from article

Spoiler

Scope of what PC Games played resp. what was demonstrated:

• They were able to play the latest build that feat. procedural generated planets, they claim to have flown to the moon-sized planet Delamar part of the Nyx-system. The landing zone that they aimed for on the surface, was the abandoned mining station Levski. They approached from space, went into orbit than entered the athmosphere before landing on the surface. They got out of the cockpit and moved around freely on the planet surface.
• They were shown a gameplay stage of the latest Star Marine module.

2.6 will launch Star Marine as separate module just like Arena Commander, this was also played a gameplay stage was demonstrated by staff to PC Games and they are saying it's much more polished on the FPS side and feels a lot better than current rudimentary FPS in the PU. - Interesting side-note: they talked about map->s in plural.

2.7 (now 3.0) will bring procedural planets and you will be able to travel the whole Stanton system and all planets and moons can be directly approached down to the surface.

• They say the new lighting system as part of the procedural planets build looks much more natural.
• They say that approaching the planet looks and technically feels better than with Elite Dangerous.
• You can land anywhere manually, automatic landing gets you to fixed positions i.e. landing zones.
• Microtech and Hurston come in follow-up patches after 2.7
• They aim to have Stanton fully playable i.e. with all stations and landing zones (according to CR about 40 locations) by end of 2016
  
• There will be more jobs and missions as well.
• Trading will be in by then, specifically purchase and sale of goods should play a more important role
• Chris describing that missions accepted up in space stations could lead you eventually down to planet surfaces, not clear if this is going to be in with 2.7 but seemingly something SQ42 will benefit from.
• Planets and moons are revolving around suns, with naturally simulated day and night cycles.
• When flying over the ocean they were noticing that the horizon had a correctly simulated curve.
• Trees and Animals seemingly are planned (edit: doesn't seem to be in with 2.7, sorry) - they have them seemingly setup in pre-made templates they call eco-systems - these can be brushed over the planet surface, some magic blends the transitions to make it look naturally and consistent.
• Planetary surface and topograhy details are controlled by a dynamic LOD system.
• Some pop-up was visible during the planetary approach but they described it as impressive regardless.
• They were also impressed with the cloud system, which wasn't just a simple texture layer but seemingly is described what I assume would be volumetric, i.e. they have deepth and height and impact visibility, leading to mountain crests piercing through clouds and valleys being covered.
• They are writing that there isn't any artificially restricted view range, visibility is rather a result from the volumetric calculation of the athmosphere.
• Parallax-Occlusion maps with dynamic tessellation is used for the surface details.
• GTX 980 was used with 100 fps on the planetary surface, so performance seems to be pretty good already, sorry, that was just editor performance - in-game performance was 45fps
  
• They mention that subsumption AI is going to allow NPC to form independent decisions based on environment and situational context. They then write that subsumption AI is also being used in real life for programming robots with human like behaviour. (they don't really clarify what exactly they mean)
• Some stuff about the subsumption-AI saying NPCs might have hobbies and possess their own virtual mind, allowing them to remember and be influenced in their opinions by the player. To avoid performance issues, they seemingly control the update cycles for NPC AI based on player proximitiy i.e. update cycles go to 1hz instead of 60hz if no one is around.
• There was also a part about server architecture, how they intend to improve upon it in order to sustain more concurrent players in the same server zone. target is to reduce the numbers of instances.
• They intend to mesh servers together in order to form a huge cluster, the necessary optimisations are already being coded into star citizen, accordingly they also should yield some marginal performance improvements on the client side.
• One of the journalists wrote in his opinion piece that the gamescom presentation is going to drop some jaws to the floor. (just a mild disclaimer: it isn't clearly written if he has actually seen it or just speculates)
• The acticle has a small footnote saying that Brian Chambers pointed out repeatenly that all pictures still represent WIP.

They also wrote that they were positively surprised that all employees at Foundry 42 Frankfurt that they had a chance to talk with seemed to be truthfully grateful to be able to work on the project due to the challenge it represents. They specifically point out, that the enthusiasm didn't feel faked.

And it was also reiterated by Chris Roberts in their Gamescom presentation.

2.0 actually not only it was released with everything showed at their 2015 gamescom/citizencon demo's (except the Idris ofc) but also new stuff like the Covalex private investigation quest in the abandoned space station for example.

Where do you go for help on control setup. I have a Logiteck G710 keyboard and Extreme 3D Pro joystick. Nothing I do seems to change anything. Pull back on the stick/nose goes down, push stick forward/nose goes up, yaw left it rolls left, yaw right/it rolls right....etc. If I could learn to change these, it might turn on a light (if I still had one)

Go to Options - Controls (Not keybinds) and you should have the option to reverse the axis direction. Feel free to PM if you have more questions.