The Star Citizen Thread v5

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Often it is the presentation, not the message. When Rolan posts, people generally thank him for the news. I might be wrong but I don't recall many, if any sniping contests at Rolan?

Other posters who are pro-SC, you can tell from reading their posts that they craft them to try and provoke a response. The deliberate overlaying of lavish praise for miniscule events. The smarm, the damning with faint praise of other games, the asymmetric comparisons, the deliberate grand-standing.

Not to say some of the anti, or "post-pro" SC posters don't indulge too. There are sliding scales at both ends of the spectrum.

And then you get that guy recently that is out there like Pluto... to the point where Ben Parry had to tell him he was getting a bit too enthusiastic with his assertions about SC.

Edit: toned down hyperbole a tad

Yes Rolan seems okay, like a genuine poster. He figured out how to fit in and people seem to appreciate it.
 
ED on the other hand wasn't over-hyped

To be fair, there was a general expectation that a lot of systems were just placeholders when the alpha ended and the final released date was announced rather sudden. I was one of those people who were bewildered and didn't expect ED to launch the way it did.

and the angriest people with FDEV (other than gordo and the like) are those who thought they were buying EVE with a cockpit and found they were just a pilot who couldn't lord it over other players and a set of systems. This never really gained much traction as the game was never hyped as including it, the issue arose from wishful thinking by people who didn't research the game and who wanted certain game mechanics (that FD when asked had said no to).

But, and here's the thing, we can TALK about this. Nobody issues death threats over the possibility to operate an/or somehow "own" a station. I'm one of those people who say that we could have this without turning ED into EvE, and that things the devs previously said they'd never do are now in the game (remote controlled drones and fighters, etc.)
But I'm not gung-ho about this, and I'm also not claiming that Elite will definitely have this when at the moment there are no plans for it. I'm also not going around and claiming that ED's planets are "better" than those of other games when there's good factual evidence that other teams did indeed get further already.

What turns me off of SC is this constant notion that SC does everything better, when it turns out that no, it's already fallen behind on a lot of fronts and it fails to deliver on me on the main course: Space flight. When people say things like "CIG probably has a more sophisticated continuous integration process than anyone in the industry" I just cringe because it's such an incredibly ignorant statement. When people drone on about how amazing SC's graphics look and stuff they show is already looking 5 years behind the times, I shake my head. There's people cheering and gasping at SC's water surfaces on planets when a goddamn unity asset looks better. Yes I know SC's screenshots were a work in progress, but my point is not where they're at right now, but the reaction of the fanbase. And when you look at the quality and efficiency of what the demoscene puts out, with a 64k demo making look Star Citizen like a game from 1990, how can you keep on babbling about "fidelity" and "amazing scope"?

I'm going to say it:

The rabid SC fanboys just don't understand computer games. ;)

(Not all of them of course, and I can totally understand being enthusiastic about the idea of SC - I love these types of games and I would love nothing more than a high-fidelity version of Pulsar with proper space combat and good FPS. But the thing SC should excel at is gameplay, not graphics. And at the moment it hasn't caught up on gameplay, and it's losing at graphics with every month of delays)
 
I'm sorry but it absolutely 100% matters because it's either damning to his career/legacy or it's not. There is no room for interpretation when making an accusation that a major publisher/corporation kicked someone out of their position due to the other accusations you levy against him.
No, it's entirely irrelevant because it's not a matter of damning or accusation — it's a matter of establishing a pattern and demonstrating parallels between two projects. It is simply your opinon that comparing two ChrisR projects is somehow damning to his career. I mean, you're right in having that opinion, but it is not a factor in the comparison.

So, again, it is 100% irrelevant whether Chris got kicked off by the publisher or by himself. What matters is that while he was on the project, it did not move forward. What matters is that before he got kicked off, he made promise after promise; he talked about fidelity and grand scope and massive feature lists; he had all the control in the world, tons of money, and tons of time; and he blew through every deadline and release date set up. It wasn't until all of that was removed: the time, the control, the promise, the money, and ultimately Chris himself that the game could move towards a release. If you can't spot the parallels; if you think that time, money, and complete control is the solution; you are wilfully blind to history. And that is a fact.

It's still opinion because you see a correlation and are attributing that as causation.
You're confusing your own assumptions with what is actually said. No, it is not opinion and it's not attributing anything as anything. It is simply a historical fact. Whatever correlations, causations, and accusations you personally want to draw from that is entirely up to you, and trying to dismiss it as “just opinion” because you're not comfortable with the images conjured up in your mind by this history does not change what the history actually is.

Just accept it: the parallels between SC and Freelancer are obvious, especially since SC isn't even out yet. Ultimately, time, money, and control are not a magic panacea that solves everything. The examples that prove this are abundant; Freelancer is part of that set of examples.

CR could have easily stepped down amicably because he didn't like the vision that Microsoft wanted or it could have gone down like you and Tippis describe
I didn't describe anything anything related to that. Stop projecting your fears and conclusions onto me.
 
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There's some fundamental misunderstandings about probabilities and predictions here.

We're not betting on an unloaded die. With any producer/publisher the die is loaded by skills/track record/experience and the thing you have to determine is HOW it is loaded.

As such you look how it's rolled before. Initially we assume it is unloaded, then we track each outcome to see what numbers come up most often - and it's not pretty
 
The weird thing is how it's by no means limited to Star Citizen fanatics, it seems to have absolutely exploded this year. NMS was an obvious example, with pre-release fanaticism followed by an almost equally brutal post-release backlash (take note, CIG), but reveal a delay to a game, or a yet-to-be-announced console, and a ridiculous number of people seem to think that the acceptable, reasonable response is abuse or threats of violence or death. Anonymously, of course. I'll give it to the fanatics that take it upon themselves to come here like Roberts' personal missionaries to convert the heretics, at least they tend to rely on more passive methods like circular arguments, pedantry and/or blissful ignorance.

Except the one difference NMS had only FANATICS that want their dream game to be the best in the world in SC we had that 2 but then we had very important role of the GREY market traders where many of them don´t play the game at all instead of that they are profiting from it and in return they will do all in their power to keep the hype and prices on HI scale.....many of them are in here 2 spreading the agenda......
 
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Musing on Content and such

1) In what I have watched, so far, the main enjoyment people have with SC is using the existing stuff as a way to create their own content, not just have a smorgasbord of content to choose from. The PTU is not chock full of content with the Comm Relay missions on and off, the ICC Missions, the Enemy of the State (or whatever the term is), the Shipping Hub and the Deputy at Kareah (or however it is spelt), but there is enough of a gameworld for people to RP and make their own fun given the limited constraints.

Much like ED Alpha 2 and 3

Batgirl does a narrative of RPing an investigator seeking out GrimHex
That kind of make your own story with the game world provided we ED players should appreciate in sprit

If that is where we set out expectations then, it has the level of content you'd expect.

Now are they ahead on target or behind on time frames should be a separate question debated to what is the game currently like.

Technical limitations, such as the Frame rate from the server, clipping and such, whilst warning critique, should be a separate consideration.

If we are going to critique the content then we should do so in good faith from the assumption of the content presented being an example of what they wish it to be and assume the technical issues were fixed.

Yes they all need to come together in the end for it to be an enjoyable and playable experience, but the content should be measured on its value as content and not the experience from bugs, which we assume will be fixed.

2) Tessa Banister is in league with Pirates and she perpetually sends any ship off to beacons which she knows resulted in a horrible and untimely death.... think about it.

3) Before it was hidden behind some account verification the ED thread in the RSI/CIG forums was a great place for information n ED during pre-release as it was all the good nuggets of info distilled down, as I try to avoid reddits and other such things. The same can be said for SC here, another shout out to Rolan in particular, as again the key info and videos are posted and we avoid the noise of the general discussions, more easily. In both cases one thread was easier to skim read for key info, vs numerous sub forums.

4) Remember "Hype" by definition, at least where I am from, is a deliberate exaggeration of a product in order to increase sales, find a better word, without the negative connotations.

5) If you wish to share you enthusiasm for the products, please temper it with what we can actually experience, or see regular joe consumer experience.
Until anything is in a public build, it cannot be the best or better than anything based on your hopes and dreams and promises.
Start Marine isn't anything until it makes it in game, but one it is feel free to demonstrate its strengths, demonstrate.
On that temper ones expectations as this isn't the first time Star Marine has been promised in the next patch and it didn't happen, so the same promise repeated doesn't make it a certainty.

We can agree to say it is aimed for 2.6 but each side can refrain from saying it will or wont be in in a certainty.

6) BTW use referral code #123WTFBBQ to get a free LTI on an E-Rated Falcoun Delacy Sidewinder Mk.I Scout Ship
 
and heres 64kb demo looking better than star citizen 3.0
[video=youtube;JZ6ZzJeWgpY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ6ZzJeWgpY[/video]
and heres a 64k demo blowing ED away in its style
[video=youtube;mjzeP7hYyNo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjzeP7hYyNo[/video]

its impressive what you can do with simple math and direct-x libraries
(and in background the most impressive thing is finding the most optimum packing algorithm)
 
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Seriously.. people saying there's nothing to do in Elite then post videos like that of things to "do" in SC?

Is this joking/trolling or something?
A bit of the latter, with a whole lot of general ignorance mixed in. We have a kind of a Hanlon's razor:y situation here, with a choice between malice or incompetence (or, if you like, outright lying and more or less wilful ignorance), but it's hard to figure out which is which.

You'll notice that, when talking about SC, the phrase “has never been done before” comes up frightfully often, and always in relation to some feature that has been done lots of times before. The fundamental issues is that, just like Chris, many of these people simply haven't kept up with the PC gaming industry since the turn of the millennium. They've missed out on the whole rise and refinement of sandbox gaming; of persistent multiplayer; of MMOs; of faux-sim shooters; they've been out of the loop or on the resurgence of indie development; of niche games; and of high-concept experimental games. Hell, we've even seen Chris try to tout as new and exciting features that were in Duke 3D, 20 years ago(!). So in practice, what has really happened is that their particular niche hasn't been well catered for, and consequently, they haven't had anything to grab their attention and use as a grounding to keep up to date — only now, when niche gaming is back with a vengeance, are they being sucked back in.

So there is a pretty strong trend among these people to… well… not be that observant, let's say, of what has happened outside their tiny bubble. They have also been fed a very peculiar narrative to fill in the gaps in their knowledge — one where nasty ebil publishers have kept development from happening (and, even more ridiculously, that they are afraid of new developments), where PCs have been marginalised and held back, and where nothing new ever comes out. All of it pretty much contrary to reality, and yet a very easy foundation to use for filling in the gaps about the state of the industry and for imagining what goes on outside that bubble. Basically, if you don't know about something, it must be because it's a case of publisher consolification and retreaded old concepts, and thus inherently of lesser quality and beneath you to care about. And it certainly can't be new and innovative — only the thing inside the bubble is capable of that.

Now add in an aspect that they're very much a part of, because it was around even back in the day: game tribalism. Everything outside of the bubble is bad because it is; anything else inside the bubble is bad because it's not part of the tribe… and in fact, it's probably bad because it's just like those horrible things outside the bubble. Hence why “only the thing” — singular — is capable of anything new or interesting.

Thus we arrive at the razor. Sure, there are some that do indeed understand that things have developed a lot; that the bubble does not exist in a vacuum and that what they're rooting for is perhaps not quite as impressive, comparatively speaking, but they have to say so anyway because of the tribalism. These are your trolls. There are others who simply don't know any better because they haven't had any reason to keep themselves informed, and they rely on in-group sources of information instead — sources that say that there is a vacuum outside the bubble, possibly with dragons in it, either because they're the aforementioned trolls or because they too don't know any better. These are your ignoramuses. You can't actually look outside and verify for yourself, because that would be a betrayal of the tribe, and after all you already know that you don't like what's out there so why even bother?
 
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(and in background the most impressive thing is finding the most optimum packing algorithm)

It's not actually packing but procedural generation down to every texture, sound and shape. If you wanna play with this yourself, I suggest you download "Werkzeug" by Farbrausch. Warning, contains math :)

Well, just combine that with 96kb first person shooter and you have your dream game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NBG-sKFaB0
160kb should be enough for everybodyx4

Oh yeah, kkrieger by Farbrausch was an amazing accomplishment, especially back when it was released. It sucks as a game though. There's a lot of great engines that are incredibly sophisticated like Sauerbraten but it's not just the engine, but about making a fun to play game.

And as for Star Citizen: I'm GLAD they are embracing procedural generation, even though their efforts are still... very early, to put it nicely. Just don't make outrageous claims about them being on the forefront of PG etc. and we're golden.

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You'll notice that, when talking about SC, the phrase “has never been done before” comes up frightfully often, and always in relation to some feature that has been done lots of times before. The fundamental issues is that, just like Chris, many of these people simply haven't kept up with the PC gaming industry since the turn of the millennium. ?

Another reason is that some of these extreme fans are very young and just weren't around when we played those games that did things they think SC invented.
But sadly, a lot of it is ignorance and a near religious belief.
 
Packing is also part of it. If you want to even fit the code for that much of a demo into 64k, you start having to get pretty creative in how to encode it.
Yeah, that segment has pretty consistently been where you've seen the most insanely clever solutions being rolled out just to fit within the size allotment. Back in the day, with no external libraries or hard-coded solutions to call, it was all about figuring out how to put together compact, self-uncompressing code and assets on top of making the assets themselves tiny or procedurally generated. Oh, and figuring out how to draw the thing on screen at proper speed to begin with. :D

These days, you certainly still have to do some of that, but having the processing power to make more stuff on the fly definitely helps a lot as far as packing even more in there.
 
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Yeah, that segment has pretty consistently been where you've seen the most insanely clever solutions being rolled out just to fit within the size allotment. Back in the day, with no external libraries or hard-coded solutions to call, it was all about figuring out how to put together compact, self-uncompressing code and assets on top of making the assets themselves tiny or procedurally generated. Oh, and figuring out how to draw the thing on screen at proper speed to begin with. :D

These days, you certainly still have to do some of that, but having the processing power to make more stuff on the fly definitely helps a lot as far as packing even more in there.

I'm still impressed that ED isn't 35Gb yet, well one day it will be, they can't keep this size forever.
 
He has to squeeze all that expensive Hollywood talent (and wife actress) in somewhere eh. Show everybody what a great mo cap director he is
 
What turns me off of SC is this constant notion that SC does everything better, when it turns out that no, it's already fallen behind on a lot of fronts and it fails to deliver on me on the main course: Space flight.

This is behavior you can see of any fanboy and isn't something limited to SC, if CR or a dev of CIG states something as being an achievement you either have the perspective of seeing it as an achievement in the development of SC specifically or you apply it to different things it wasn't ment to be directed at, e.g. while "persistence" is a fundamental part of every MMO it is also an achievement/milestone having it implemented in the course of development of a MMO. If SC ever gets released and one of the devs or CR state something fundamental as being "groundbreaking" or an achievement in games development in general i will be the first to retract my statements.

When people say things like "CIG probably has a more sophisticated continuous integration process than anyone in the industry" I just cringe because it's such an incredibly ignorant statement.

Do you have an actual quote/source for that statement? Again sounds like something a fanboy would say...

When people drone on about how amazing SC's graphics look and stuff they show is already looking 5 years behind the times, I shake my head.

Now you're being ungenuine, SC's graphics are top notch, stating anything else makes me question your perception of reality.

There's people cheering and gasping at SC's water surfaces on planets when a goddamn unity asset looks better. Yes I know SC's screenshots were a work in progress, but my point is not where they're at right now, but the reaction of the fanbase. And when you look at the quality and efficiency of what the demoscene puts out, with a 64k demo making look Star Citizen like a game from 1990, how can you keep on babbling about "fidelity" and "amazing scope"?

Did we really come to a point to where we need to compare things that aren't comparable? 64k is a completely different subject, it's like comparing ingame cinematics to modern CGI movies or comparing ingame footage to prerendered footage (not related to SC). It's just grasping for straws to have an argument.
 
It seems to be related to be related to excessive hype either allowed to get out of hand or encouraged to get out of hand. NMS was bad but SC is a lot more hyped and the explosion if it fails will match that.

The difference with Hello Games and CIG is that CIG hasn't had a problem to correct expectations (even if a little late), while Hello Games kept the expectations high and wouldn't even retract on its statements after release of the game.
 
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