The Star Citizen Thread v5

[Cabbage_Head]

How about not responding in kind and then complaining about how other people do the thing you're also doing? Again, very simple.

And no, it's not called defending one's self. It's called hypocrisy.

One does not come before the other.

Actually, it's an analogy.

"But they did it too!"

I'm assuming you're not five, so why do you think that's acceptable? How other people act doesn't justify your own behaviour, which you've fully admitted is tribal.

Perhaps the reason you get such a hostile reception is because of how you approach the conversation in the first place? (see above: "do you not know...").

You seem to assume the people posting criticism are doing it purely through spite, or jealously, or a desire to see "your team" fail. If CIG ultimately fails, it's not people posting about their problems that will have caused it... it's the actual problems. So stop trying to shoot the messenger, you keep missing and the gunfire keeps waking that cat.

How about people follow that advice. Because it seems tribal to me, especially if none of this matters. Why have a discussion on it? as far as i'm concerned none you guys are messengers and if it's a message then it's one that spawned from the echo chamber that created it.


Also "the enemy" again that was an example. I give to pin point what was said before hand. Has nothing to do with being "five'.

Thanks for the correction though otherwise.



Finale Note: Matter a fact i'm done with this farce at this point. After 2 years i see the same folks spewing the same stuff and i've come to the conclusion even if some were shown the progress that they believe they want and the "lies" were proven false through content, that their crusade has only been uphill mission with no apex. It wouldn't mean a cent.

 

[Asp Explorer]

I don't believe CR is deliberately lying. He is unsure of what exactly is going on, he doesn't know what has been developed. He has his vision, and has some issue correlating what he believes his game is like with what is on the screen in front of him.

It's obvious whenever he tries to play that he is unsure what is going on, needs prompting to head toward desired results, and sees things he honestly never expects to be there.

 

[Artemus]

If you dont mind me asking (and in a heated topic such as this I mean it sincerely!): what do/did you look for in SC that you find lacking in ED (as you say you hardly play it). Often people showing up here with an interest in SC (regardless of scepticism) mindlessly bash ED on general principle. As you dont seem to be a raving SC-fanboy, I am interested to hear what your vision of your desired spacegame is. It could be interesting to both ED and SC 'fans'.

I don't mind you asking! In fact I'm tickled pink you asked .

What I saw in SC/SQ42 was the come back of privateer and wing commander. Two games I've always loved(well up to wing commander 3, rest was rubbish). I never played the elite series as a wee lad, so I didn't know it existed until recently. I saw you gents were talking about a side project(Arena) that was free on steam. I downloaded it and thought it would be a classic dogfight in space, boy was I wrong! Try as I might I just couldn't get the hang of the controls, and I didn't like how my weapons locked onto my target, felt cheap or unsportsmanlike (Aimbotish?). I'll probably give it another shot at some point, when I get bored with everything I've got going on.

 

[tooterfish]

If someone comes here espousing Star Citizen's merits, then it's perfectly valid to say "well, the project isn't all roses..."

Especially when the project is still taking in money. It'd be ethically questionable not to bring up the warts IMO, I wouldn't be comfortable telling someone to buy it right now when they could just as easily wait.

 

[Soopyyy]

I don't mind you asking! In fact I'm tickled pink you asked .

What I saw in SC/SQ42 was the come back of privateer and wing commander. Two games I've always loved(well up to wing commander 3, rest was rubbish). I never played the elite series as a wee lad, so I didn't know it existed until recently. I saw you gents were talking about a side project(Arena) that was free on steam. I downloaded it and thought it would be a classic dogfight in space, boy was I wrong! Try as I might I just couldn't get the hang of the controls, and I didn't like how my weapons locked onto my target, felt cheap or unsportsmanlike like(Aimbotish?). I'll probably give it another shot at some point, when I get bored with everything I've got going on.

They're gimballed, they do a certain amount of auto aim. The full game has fixed weapons.

 

[Cmdr Cheese Wedge]

I don't believe CR is deliberately lying. He is unsure of what exactly is going on, he doesn't know what has been developed. He has his vision, and has some issue correlating what he believes his game is like with what is on the screen in front of him.

It's obvious whenever he tries to play that he is unsure what is going on, needs prompting to head toward desired results, and sees things he honestly never expects to be there.

CR doesn't even know the basic mechanics of how to play his own game that he and his team has been developing.
If that's not a massive red flag for ALL his backers then I don't know what is.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I don't mind you asking! In fact I'm tickled pink you asked .

What I saw in SC/SQ42 was the come back of privateer and wing commander. Two games I've always loved(well up to wing commander 3, rest was rubbish). I never played the elite series as a wee lad, so I didn't know it existed until recently. I saw you gents were talking about a side project(Arena) that was free on steam. I downloaded it and thought it would be a classic dogfight in space, boy was I wrong! Try as I might I just couldn't get the hang of the controls, and I didn't like how my weapons locked onto my target, felt cheap or unsportsmanlike (Aimbotish?). I'll probably give it another shot at some point, when I get bored with everything I've got going on.

Ha, so your experience with ED is ED:Arena? I am not sure if you frequent the general forums much, but thats a hot topic around here. One of the, admittedly somewhat many, complaints is indeed the aiming. In the 'real' game, aiming of weapons comes in three types:

1) Turrets. These have automated aiming, and can be set to fire at will. Think of being a commander of a huge Star Trek/Star Wars ship and saying 'FIRE AT WILL!'. In ED they have a major damage penalty.
2) Gimballed. These are the ones you see in Arena. They have a rather severe autoaim (though if I remember somewhat reduced in Arena). In the real game they have a medium damage penalty.
3) Fixed. These have virtually no auto-aim except for targeted module locking. These weapons offer the highest DPS/energy.

Some weapons come exclusively as fixed, such as railguns and dumbfire missiles. Being able to use these efficiently is very beneficial: railgunning an Eagle from 2.5km is quite the feat! It causes a balance between ships with different levels of agility: with equal pilot skill small ships often have fixed weapons (as they should be able to keep the ship center), ships with medium agility go for gimballed (to give them a chance of somewhat catching smaller crafts) and heavy lumbering ships primarily depend on turrets (as fixed are pointless against anything but another massive ship). In Arena you only get small ships (with modified flight models, the same ships behave differently in the real game) with a heavy dose of auto-aim. Presumably this is to level the playing field for those with gamepads instead of expensive joysticks. Unfortunately it does reduce the impact of skill.

A secondary problem with Arena as standalone game is that AFAIK you dont have the ability to fly against AI in training missions. Your basically being thrown in the pit with people having hundreds or thousands of flight hours while figuring out the basics of the controls. Its commonly adviced to new players of ED to spend at least an hour in the first tutorial mission just setting up controls, flying around and getting to understand the flight model/radar. In Arena you'll get killed every twenty seconds or so if you try that, and if you dont you also get killed every 20 seconds.

I'd suggest you keep an eye on steam, I'm pretty sure the core game will be in the Xmas sales for ten bucks or so, it was 15 in the last IIRC.

 

[Moonax IRL]

As a previous poster has pointed out CR seems to be constantly reacting to outside forces. He sees other games been developed with certain mechanics an example being P.G and then tries to shoehorn it into SC. He looks like a guy who is bereft of ideas and is looking over his shoulder at other games in the genre saying to himself "well if they have it, we have to have it in SC as well". There is no plan, everything is happening on the fly and changing hither and thither, the result is the game that will never be finished or if it is, it will be a patchwork mess of copied ideas and mechanics held together with sticky tape.
The game world is moving on with new games coming to the fore which will make SC look dated and irrelevant with its outdated engine that was first released in October of 2009, that's it folks this engine is seven years old next month and will likely be a decade old by the time SC is released. Now does that sound like a bad joke to anybody. I think he knows himself that whole thing is out of control and is a train wreck in slow motion but he`s like the rabbit in the headlights. The gravy train is still in motion and he'll ride till it hits the buffers but then he'll slip away into the sunset with the missus on an ocean of tears.

 

[Ian Skippy]

CR doesn't even know the basic mechanics of how to play his own game that he and his team has been developing.
If that's not a massive red flag for ALL his backers then I don't know what is.

To be fair, one could argue that thats not the job of a 'visionary'. His job is to present the destiny, then others build the road. He doesnt have to walk the road himself, he can just trust his team does an adequate job. Ofcourse, unrealistic goals combined with no oversight might be a problem.

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As a previous poster has pointed out CR seems to be constantly reacting to outside forces. He sees other games been developed with certain mechanics an example being P.G and then tries to shoehorn it into SC. He looks like a guy who is bereft of ideas and is looking over his shoulder at other games in the genre saying to himself "well if they have it, we have to have it in SC as well". There is no plan everything is happening on the fly and changing hither and thither, the result is the game that will never be finished or if it is, it will be a patchwork mess of copied ideas and mechanics held together with sticky tape.
The game world is moving on with new games coming to the fore which will make SC look dated and irrelevant with its outdated engine that was first released in October of 2009, that's it folks this engine is seven years old next month and will likely be a decade old by the time SC is released. Now does that sound like a bad joke to anybody.I think he knows himself that whole thing is out of control and is a train wreck in slow motion but he`s like the rabbit in the headlights. The gravy train is still in motion and he'll ride til it hits the buffers but then he'll slip away into the sunset with the missus on an ocean of tears.

"SC should be everything any other game offers" actually is an idea in and of itself. The real question is whether its feasible. Or in another way, whether its really possible for a new team without support of a publisher to massively push the limits beyond what established studios can do based primarily on sheer determination and community support. To me, SC is essentially the Into The Wild of games.

 

[Cmdr Cheese Wedge]

To be fair, one could argue that thats not the job of a 'visionary'. His job is to present the destiny, then others build the road. He doesnt have to walk the road himself, he can just trust his team does an adequate job. Ofcourse, unrealistic goals combined with no oversight might be a problem.

All valid points, but I would argue even a 'visionary' should be able to plug in a basic hotas have all keys already bound to that hotas ready for him for instant flight.
Also a 'visionary' should know what a chat window in a MMO game is, it doesn't instill a level of confidence in the 'visionary' or the viewer.

 

[Artemus]

Ha, so your experience with ED is ED:Arena? I am not sure if you frequent the general forums much, but thats a hot topic around here. One of the, admittedly somewhat many, complaints is indeed the aiming. In the 'real' game, aiming of weapons comes in three types:

1) Turrets. These have automated aiming, and can be set to fire at will. Think of being a commander of a huge Star Trek/Star Wars ship and saying 'FIRE AT WILL!'. In ED they have a major damage penalty.
2) Gimballed. These are the ones you see in Arena. They have a rather severe autoaim (though if I remember somewhat reduced in Arena). In the real game they have a medium damage penalty.
3) Fixed. These have virtually no auto-aim except for targeted module locking. These weapons offer the highest DPS/energy.

Some weapons come exclusively as fixed, such as railguns and dumbfire missiles. Being able to use these efficiently is very beneficial: railgunning an Eagle from 2.5km is quite the feat! It causes a balance between ships with different levels of agility: with equal pilot skill small ships often have fixed weapons (as they should be able to keep the ship center), ships with medium agility go for gimballed (to give them a chance of somewhat catching smaller crafts) and heavy lumbering ships primarily depend on turrets (as fixed are pointless against anything but another massive ship). In Arena you only get small ships (with modified flight models, the same ships behave differently in the real game) with a heavy dose of auto-aim. Presumably this is to level the playing field for those with gamepads instead of expensive joysticks. Unfortunately it does reduce the impact of skill.

A secondary problem with Arena as standalone game is that AFAIK you dont have the ability to fly against AI in training missions. Your basically being thrown in the pit with people having hundreds or thousands of flight hours while figuring out the basics of the controls. Its commonly adviced to new players of ED to spend at least an hour in the first tutorial mission just setting up controls, flying around and getting to understand the flight model/radar. In Arena you'll get killed every twenty seconds or so if you try that, and if you dont you also get killed every 20 seconds.

I'd suggest you keep an eye on steam, I'm pretty sure the core game will be in the Xmas sales for ten bucks or so, it was 15 in the last IIRC.

ah, thanks for the heads up. It was rather frustrating trying to fly. And I'll put it on the old list of stuff to download when on sale.

 

[Soopyyy]

ah, thanks for the heads up. It was rather frustrating trying to fly. And I'll put it on the old list of stuff to download when on sale.

The full game is absolutely nothing like Arena.

 

[frostypaw]

re-planned the whole thing from the ground up to provide a game with the quality and scope allowed by said funding.

ah so that's why they never have to rework the core code - all that detailed planning to start with to provide a suitable fully modular engine that could support a changing feature set as development changed with extra funding

very clever that.

 

[Osmanthus]

ah, thanks for the heads up. It was rather frustrating trying to fly. And I'll put it on the old list of stuff to download when on sale.

Echoing Soopyyy, there are hardly any points of comparison between Elite proper and Arena, since even the combat plays out differently.

 

[Moonax IRL]

"SC should be everything any other game offers" actually is an idea in and of itself. The real question is whether its feasible. Or in another way, whether its really possible for a new team without support of a publisher to massively push the limits beyond what established studios can do based primarily on sheer determination and community support. To me, SC is essentially the Into The Wild of games.

SC will be in game engine terms a dinosaur when and if it's released. The greatest mistake that was made with SC was that it was strangled at birth by CR when he picked an off the shelf game engine instead of developing his own from the ground up. Why was this choice made you may ask, well the only answer can be that it was meant as a time saving exercise. How has that worked out for CR, I think it's been a cluster F from day one and instead of saving time it has gobbled up years of development time. The engine was never suited to the task, is now horribly outdated and a Frankenstein creation that's as stable as a bowl of jelly. So now he knows he has made a fatal error but he still has to keep the charade going and the money flowing but I think anyone who looks objectively at the dev process to date knows that the whole thing is going to be a greek tragedy of epic proportions.

 

[Ian Skippy]

All valid points, but I would argue even a 'visionary' should be able to plug in a basic hotas have all keys already bound to that hotas ready for him for instant flight.
Also a 'visionary' should know what a chat window in a MMO game is, it doesn't instill a level of confidence in the 'visionary' or the viewer.

Oh, that was a disaster, no doubt. But its not even about him being able to plug in a HOTAS, there is no reason why the CEO of a 120 million dollar company presents anything at all to backers without dryrunning it first. The specific incompetency isnt the big issue, the fact they let that actually happen live is what is really bizarre. My current job is designing and executing bio-psychological experiments, and when I bring a participant into the lab everything works, not because I am brilliant but because I bother to test everything a dozen times before I waste the time of even one single person. And I'll have you know I am the pinnacle of idleness, so surely Mighty CIG can get an unpaid intern somewhere to try the demo for a bit in their studio before they make a fool of themselves.

 

[McGlashan]

Well do you think that the Gamescom judges opinion matters more than the general world-wide gaming media and the gamers that post there?
All you have to do is read the comments both on youtube or the gaming site articles to notice a trend of admiration for what they showed.

You know what was the most awarded game in Gamescom 2015?

Best Gamescom Game
Best Playstation Game
Best PC Game
Best Multiplayer Game

Star Wars Battlefront

Nuffsaid? [rolleyes]

You'd be the first person to shout it from the rooftops if SC had won any awards, though, wouldn't you?

And you'll find those same gaming sites, which you're ever so keen to link to when they're posting supportive stories, are fair weather friends, and they won't hold back when either Roberts finally puts his seal of approval on a MVP and the reality falls massively short of expectations, or the development collapses. At which point I expect you'll dismiss their opinion as meaningless.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Well if it doesn't really matter the question is moot. Battlefront was the most awarded game in 2015 and Star Citizen didn't get any award in 2016 so what?



Because the project was planned for X amount of funding and they got XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX and instead of keeping the money and going with the small scope plan, re-planned the whole thing from the ground up to provide a game with the quality and scope allowed by said funding.

You shouldn't need to rebuild lots of ships if your designs are correct the first time, regardless of how much more money you have.

 

[milligna]

and they won't hold back when either Roberts finally puts his seal of approval on a MVP and the reality falls massively short of expectations, or the development collapses. At which point I expect you'll dismiss their opinion as meaningless.

"It's all clickbait trying to attract attention on the back of the greatest game ever made! Also the big publishers are paying them to badmouth Star Citizen! Also Derek Smart! They just can't stand the fact that 600 employees, 12 studios, and $820 million have made a game better than every other game also released in 2054! The scope changed once $450 million was hit and the fidelity of the existing 'verse wasn't to CR's standards so they have to refactor, that's why there aren't 100 systems at launch."

"But there's still only one."

"You don't understand game development!"

"What about Star Marine?"

"It's coming! But what about LOD? When will that come?"

"Derek Smart has been dead for years. Let it go."

"Yeah but the goons cloned him! Literally ALL the critics are Derek Smart now! LITERALLY!"

"I guess it's poetic justice considering The First Church of Chris and the Lesnickian Brotherhood introduced ritualized body modification to make everyone pudgy men with dyed orange hair and rubbery wavey fingers."

"We have to preserve His Vision until the prophecies come true! Lo, and the coming of the Beta shall finally be upon us after four score and six suffering cycles of Pre-Pre-Alpha, Pre-Alpha, and Alpha. And the heavens shall open, and VR support still won't be there, but the fidelity shall be mighty and all of us will be one with Chris once the netcode is updated to allow it by descendants of the original CryTek engineers. Book of Lando, chapter 5. Verses 3-4."

"Speaking of Chris, nobody has seen him for a very long time. Years in fact. What's that about?"

"He's conducting further research into immersion but had to ascend to a higher level of consciousness."

"I heard he was a brain in a jar."

"That story from Escapist Polyshotgun was ALL LIES based on disgruntled employees and anonymous posts on Glassdoor! But hey, check out this WIP footage of the remodeled Freelancer...."

[Posts ATV Episode #9679]

 

[Soliluna]

The Gamescom Demo wasn't shown at Gamescom premises. It was a showcase in a private party for the backers, not for "Gamescom Judges" lol

Besides it received praises from the gaming media across the world:

http://www.pcgamer.com/star-citizen-30s-planetary-landing-blows-no-mans-sky-away/
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/08/22/star-citizen-3-0-gameplay-planetary-landing/
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/how-star-citizen-plans-to-do-much-of-what-no-mans-/1100-6442819/
http://www.polygon.com/2016/8/19/12559536/star-citizen-version-30
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2016/08/heres-your-regular-reminder-about-how-huge-star-citizen-is/
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-08-20-landing-on-a-planet-in-star-citizen-looks-spectacular
https://www.engadget.com/2016/08/21/star-citizen-gamescom-demo/
http://www.ausgamers.com/news/read/...ndings-of-star-citizens-gamescom-presentation
http://www.inquisitr.com/3440389/st...com-showcases-brute-force-power-of-pc-gaming/
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/star-citizen-planet-landing
http://twinfinite.net/2016/08/star-citizen-is-free-this-weekend-gamescom-2016/
http://www.thebitbag.com/star-citiz...ay-reveals-expect-cloud-imperium-games/172554
http://www.gamestar.de/spiele/star-citizen/news/star_citizen,48820,3301474.html
http://www.3dnews.ru/938171
http://www.gamersnexus.net/news/2569-star-citizen-3-0-at-gamescom-detailed-4k-screenshots
http://www.gamereactor.eu/news/446783/You+can+play+Star+Citizens+free+over+the+weekend/
http://www.alfabetajuega.com/notici...e-con-una-nueva-demo-de-casi-una-hora-n-72420
http://www.eurogamer.it/articles/20...-citizen-1-ora-gameplay-inedito-gamescom-2016
http://www.zougla.gr/technology/gam...-sto-diastima-meso-tou-eksomioti-star-citizen

1. They had a presentation, at Gamescom. People buy tickets to Gamescom to see that demo or get invited as press. It is first and foremost, an advertising platform for developers to show off their games. Whether you're in the business area, or the public area, it doesn't matter. You have a demo, trailer or whatever to show. Over 300k people come, they vote on what is the best thing they see in certain categories.

2. None of these articles say "best demo ever", not close or even in the same ballpark.

Most of them say words to the effect of "Star Citizen is finally starting to show off what may be in it's future - but it still has a long way to go".

Gamescom awards are a way for the press and players attending the event to say "Watch this game, it looks good". It's also something the devs get to take away and smile about.


As I keep saying, your head is in the clouds. If you think it is the best game ever and everything it shows is the best ever, that's fine.

But if you're going to discuss it and try to show why objectively - using sources, industry comparisons and their technology, then your sources and the tech better agree with you. So far none of them have. At best the media offers cautious optimism, your industry comparisons are laughably silly and the tech is still unproven, very buggy and strewn across lots of demo's and pictures rather than being part of the main client.

As always I say, I have every hope for it, it sounds like the type of game I want to play - but when discussing it I'd prefer to read and respond to accurate information and logical expectation rather than marketing hype.

Sometimes, reading your responses, is like having a discussion with an advert. Very unnerving and peculiar.