The Star Citizen Thread v5

[szopin]

Theoretically, people can use r/starcitizen_leaks if they want to post stuff without getting the usual players up in a tizzy. It was about the only productive thing to come out of the whole kerfuffle last night. Now, whether or not anyone actually *does* use it, remains to be seen.

I hope they will, between suggesting to call the police and 'you can't handle open development', logic has left the building long ago, adding that rule sadly increases chances of the fundies spreading

 

[Jon93]

They've still got some way to go before they catch up with games like Uncharted 4:

The tier 0:s and 1:s are clearly above the fidelity of Uncharted 4* in all aspects; both animation, texture, and mesh detail IMO: https://youtu.be/vQsgKBaYKoo?t=3m45s , https://youtu.be/vQsgKBaYKoo?t=2m14s

And unlike for PS4 the graphics won't get dumbed down on PC just before release.

* https://youtu.be/IOMWfoH-KiM?t=21m45s

 

[Soliluna]

Theoretically, people can use r/starcitizen_leaks if they want to post stuff without getting the usual players up in a tizzy. It was about the only productive thing to come out of the whole kerfuffle last night. Now, whether or not anyone actually *does* use it, remains to be seen.

I hope they will, between suggesting to call the police and 'you can't handle open development', logic has left the building long ago, adding that rule sadly increases chances of the fundies spreading

There was a kerfuffle last night?

 

[iNihlus]

Yeah, that was a mistake on my part. I meant to say each patch results in having to download the entire game again, but there's nothing from CIG/RSI that speaks to why they don't have a proper patching client.

Yeah, that's definitely a problem. Considering that using their launcher hogs all my bandwith and I can't do anything else online while the patches are downloading.

 

[Dementropy]

I hope they will, between suggesting to call the police and 'you can't handle open development', logic has left the building long ago, adding that rule sadly increases chances of the fundies spreading

Yeah, but at least they had the foresight to make it a private group - as in, you have to contact the mods to register/see leaked Star Citizen Evocati content, so I don't think it will be as flooded as people expect.

 

[szopin]

There was a kerfuffle last night?

Board sliding works I guess, yeah their closed(but really really open) testing group with open development NDAs leaked info about delay, citizens considered calling police on the open leakers

 

[Asp Explorer]

Police? What was the criminal offense?

 

[Monk]

Police? What was the criminal offense?

Lends to the belief that some of these backers truly have no grasp on reality.

Legally culpable? Yes Criminal? No.

 

[FuriousMeow]

Board sliding works I guess, yeah their closed(but really really open) testing group with open development NDAs leaked info about delay, citizens considered calling police on the open leakers

Call the police? Really?

RagingEvangelicalNerd: "Yes, hello, I would like to report someone posting information they shouldn't be on the reddit message board."

Dispatch: "What? Are you having a medical emergency?"

RagingEvangelicalNerd: <wheezing and screetching> "THEY ARE BREAKING THEIR NDA! ARREST THEM NOW!"

Dispatch: "We are dispatching an ambulance to your location as you appear to be suffering a medical emergency."

 

[ianw]

It seems remarkable that each time a couple of bans get handed out names that haven't appeared in the thread for ages suddenly appear.

Must be a coincidence.

Obviously the po po won't get involved 're an NDA and I really can't see CIG/RSI suing one of their backers so unless they shut the Avocados down the leaks aren't stopping anytime soon.

 

[Soliluna]

Board sliding works I guess, yeah their closed(but really really open) testing group with open development NDAs leaked info about delay, citizens considered calling police on the open leakers

That is actually amazing.

"Hello dispatch, I'd like to report a crime in progress. Several users of the internet website "Reddit" whose location remains unknown to me are breaking the terms of an NDA. This is an emergency, they are armed with information and are not afraid to use it; please send all available units.

 

[dsmart]

It's common sense, a secret source that isn't kept secret stops being secret then stops being a source. No tinfoil required.

Another thing to take into account if it's all invented why did CiG's customer support (Lol) accuse beer4thebeergod of being involved in corporate espionage during his e-mail exchange with Sandi about the potato re-branding kerfuffle.

It's a ticklish situation.

Yeah, it's...waaaaiiitaminute! I see what you did - right there.

 

[ianw]

That is actually amazing.

"Hello dispatch, I'd like to report a crime in progress. Several users of the internet website "Reddit" whose location remains unknown to me are breaking the terms of an NDA. This is an emergency, they are armed with information and are not afraid to use it; please send all available units.

These are the same sort of people that call the emergency services because there's a queue at the supermarket - or the drunken aholes that show up bleeding at A&E - and then start on the hospital staff - after they started on someone in town and got a royal kicking.

It is impossible to express sufficient contempt for these oxygen thieves on this forum without incurring an enforced forum holiday.

In other news it seems there's trouble at mill over an old SC stretch goal re facial capture. I saw a thread on Reddit earlier which got the usual treatment but the D man has just tweeted about it.

 

[Stigbob]

The citizens are such good sports, no matter how often CiG blatantly fail to give them what they've paid for they just keep on coming back for more.

 

[Marcus]

This video has all the new footage from the latest 10ftc video. All compiled and together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQsgKBaYKoo

Wow, some of those heads were pretty damn good!

I still think the stuff out out by Naughty Dog in Uncharted 4 pips it, especially as they are "in-game" whereas the ones shown off for Star Citizen here are in an editor. But its still pretty good, and a lot better than what they showed off in the first version of the "Morrow Tour" previously.

Its a good proof-of-concept for sure, but again I would much prefer to see it in game to see how it performs and looks then.

I cant help recalling Watchdogs, Aliens Colonial Marines and The Division videos that looked impressive but turned out to be smoke and mirrors in the end.

Thanks for sharing though Mr Nowak, really cool

 

[CMDR_Orlando]

New ATV is up, this time from the Frankfurt, where the magic happens.

[video=youtube;_7GG0y8Jmcs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7GG0y8Jmcs[/video]

Wow, some of those heads were pretty damn good!
I still think the stuff out out by Naughty Dog in Uncharted 4 pips it, especially as they are "in-game" whereas the ones shown off for Star Citizen here are in an editor. But its still pretty good, and a lot better than what they showed off in the first version of the "Morrow Tour" previously.

Its a good proof-of-concept for sure, but again I would much prefer to see it in game to see how it performs and looks then.

I cant help recalling Watchdogs, Aliens Colonial Marines and The Division videos that looked impressive but turned out to be smoke and mirrors in the end.

Uncharted doesn't even go for a realistic approach to characters, it goes for a painted art style, similar to a Disney movie. And not only Drake doesn't look better than Star Citizen Tier 0 model's (Hamill, Davos, Oldman, and most of the rest of the Hollywood heavyweights) but it doesn't look better than the Tier 1, 2, 3 model's.

Being only focused on PC means that Star Citizen is not hindered by outdated hardware from consoles, what happened with Watchdogs, Division and ACM was that they had to run across 2 generations of consoles and the last one "next-gen" was made weaker than they thought it would be. So yes Star Citizen will look miles better than anything console games can achieve until maybe Scorpio arrives.

PS - Contrary to what was spread by some through here, 2.6 patch testing is not delayed as it was allways planned to be in late early October for the Evocati. 3.0 is and was allways schedule for end of the Year since the announcement in Gamescom. As usual Citizencon should bring more news about that and Squadron 42 release date.

 

[dsmart]

OK I'll bite; since you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. Let me try and break this down into the simplest possible forms for the layman.

When we - as devs - talk about "animations", we're not just talking about one type or sub-set. Here is a list of the more common ones:

1. weapons (reload, holstering, firing kickback etc)
2. character poses (run, walk, jump, pickup, idle etc)
3. items (e.g. drone deployment & pickup etc)

As far as weapons go, some of them tend to ALWAYS be 1st person only. e.g. if you have an ammo reload animation in 1st person and third person; what you see in 1st person, is totally different from what you see in 3rd person (either from a 3rd person camera, or in multiplayer, what another player sees you doing. However, things like firing kickback may only be in 1st person because it has no relevance in a 3rd person view unless you want another player to see the weapon kickback/shuddering for "fidelity" reasons.

Character poses do not tend to have a 1st person component. Why? well, it's simple. If you are crawling along the ground, how exactly are you going to depict that? You're not. So if you are prone and crawling, the 1st person view is a camera (e.g. lowered pov height) change, while the 3rd person animation is of the character crawling along the ground. If the game does not have a 3rd person camera, or multiplayer, then there is no need to have a prone crawl animation, as nobody is going to see it.

When you reload a weapon in 1st person, you see what the weapon is doing. If you are playing a game that has you picking up or deploying items, you also need animations for those. Again, if the game doesn't have a 3rd person camera, or remote viewing (multiplayer), then you don't need a 3rd person animation.

The disparity and problem these systems present can be broken down into:

1. animations which are only needed seen/required in 1st person, don't - and shouldn't have - 3rd person versions

2. if you use the same set of animations for both 1st and 3rd person, the number of problems increase exponentially depending on the type of game. e.g. a weapon reload animation which looks great in 3rd person, may look completely incorrect in 1st person, even if you put the camera in a bone tethered to the head of the character model.

3. similar to the above, a character holding a weapon in 3rd person, will look great there; but in 1st person - even with camera manipulation - will look completely wrong. in fact, even if you don't mess with the camera attached to the bone, the pov alone will ensure that you see anomalies such as the camera intersecting the model, the weapon is off screen, the weapon is too low etc. you can get around some of these with cheats e.g. instead of leaving the camera attached to a bone in the head (where it should be), you can move that camera dynamically (or at load time) forward etc, until the pov looks better.

Here is an example. This is a series of shots from the test (I don't quite like it btw, but it's useful as a POC) 3D cockpit in LOD. When the character model is in the 3D cockpit, the camera tethered to the bone in the head (where it should be) gives a horrid pov of the cockpit. This was even after that camera was setup in the editor prior to export. And the fact that we have 8 unique character models, doesn't help. So we had to dynamically move the camera (attached to the bone) when the character is in the cockpit, in order to have a better pov that shows the cockpit elements (e.g. the MFDs contain live data). If we didn't have the character in the 3D cockpit model, it won't make any difference since we can put the camera wherever we like. Except that the character hands need to be holding the joystick.

I don't know how they are doing it in Star Citizen, but going back to what I know about CryEngine, if SC is using the same animation for 1st and 3rd person view, the fact that the weapon view looks perfect now, indicates to me that they are in fact manipulating the pov camera as there is no other way for them to achieve that unrealistic 1st person pov. What do I mean by this? Well I have firearms training; and I can tell you with absolute certainty that when you are holding a pistol in real life, your pov is NOT what you see depicted in a game. Especially given the fact that factors such as weapon type, human arm, human height etc, all play a roll in that pov.

And again - if they are using the same set for 1st and 3rd, that would explain why they couldn't remove the head bobbing all this time; because if it's part of the character animation (walk, run etc), there is NO way to change it without redoing the animation, removing those frames, and re-exporting the model etc. And they may not have done that all this time because they were looking to move to mocap data anyway. As for mocap data, again, it has no relevance to 1st person, since it's just movement animations.

Why do most games which require 1st and 3rd person have different sets of animations? Read everything I posted above. But here are some other reasons:

In the 1st person view, the player's pov is so close that a low quality model and texture, will appear pixelated. So the solution is to have things like hands and the weapon at the highest quality possible. That high quality is NOT required in the base animation (used in 3rd person camera and remote viewing) because it becomes a performance issue. Imagine creating a 100K polygon character just because you want to use it in both 1st and 3rd person due to the arms (which will be seen in 1st person) needing to be high quality. Well guess what happens in a multiplayer game when you have 16 people, all with 100K polygon models, weapons etc jammed into an already high detail scene. Chug (which btw is one of the primary reasons that Star Citizen performance sucks. Somewhere along the line they completely forgot about any of this - or didn't care).

Even things like weapons can be a problem; which is why back in the day, the 1st person weapon had a higher visual quality than the one used/seen in 3rd person. Nowadays, the performance loss is immaterial, so you can easily use the same HQ weapon for both 1st and 3rd cameras. Even so, a level of detail setting (if available) can control the quality of the one used in 3rd person for some performance gains.

Which brings me to your pointless jab (I love those because they allow me to show some people how ignorant of facts/issues they are) above....

When I designed LOD and started developing it in 2010, I already knew that the size of the game, and the sheer number of assets would result in a performance issue. That was even before we completed the engine. The content creation had to be started early. Then in 2011, I decided to ditch the home grown engine in the interest of time (and not reinventing the wheel), and license a slew of middleware to build a custom engine.

I wrote a series of blogs about this.

http://lodgame.com/15-10-27-state-of-play/
http://lodgame.com/15-09-04-state-of-play/
http://lodgame.com/15-07-31-state-of-play/

By the time the engine was at a point where performance could be gauged, analyzed etc, the game was already 100% content complete (that was back in 2013 btw).

The result is that we ended up with a powerful space and planetary engine, complete with infantry, air, ground, sea, space dynamics - but lower quality 3D assets which either didn't look all that great for a genre game, or didn't push the limits of the engine. NOTE that for all my previous games, I had built the engines (graphics, AI, animations etc) from scratch.

Earlier this year, we started evaluating which assets needed to be improved upon or completely redone. It's all right there in the game's roadmap (LOL!! yeah, we have that) btw.

So we started with the character arms, weapons, aircraft, vehicles - assets which needed improvement. Later the content creators will move to scene elements (buildings etc) and get those improved upon as well.

Since we use different animations for 1st person and 3rd person, the arms used in the 1st person animations (weapons etc), needed to be redone at a higher quality; as did the weapons.

aircraft:

Spoiler

http://lodgame.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Aurora_Revised_V1_01.jpg

weapon + arm:

Spoiler

http://lodgame.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/FG45_ready_starguard.png

Spoiler

http://images.akamai.steamuserconte...135/430F36C9220E8DEF52C2BC5634A9A343A6BEDC91/

weapon (older):

Spoiler

http://lodgame.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2015-02-24-11.jpg

3rd person crouch and swim animations; not present in 1st person

Spoiler

http://images.akamai.steamuserconte...017/90D4AFFD67E9C9D628CF1F054AB9ED6FBF0A1B06/

Spoiler

http://images.akamai.steamuserconte...657/F5B520047D8EE34509F0B3415CB487D77642550B/

Spoiler

http://images.akamai.steamuserconte...158/995C06CE28EA648EC7BA0FD6007AC50F986F8BC5/

Spoiler

http://images.akamai.steamuserconte...883/B26759E066554F84610B93E8D37554197C07DAEB/

While you don't get to see the arm in all instances, due to the type of weapon and/or character, they are in fact of much higher quality than the actual arms on the character model used in the 3rd person camera. Again, this was done for performance reasons due to the sheer number of players who could be in the same place at the same time.

The game's media page actually has shots going all the way to 2011.

That also goes for the game's art style. As I mentioned in the blogs above, I opted for a more colorful art style (in contrast to all the Greys in Star Citizen), and while some assets at low quality don't look good up front, with on-going revisions, they can be made to look better (we don't yet have the benefit of PBR in the engine) while still retaining the game's art style and performance. When you look at games with a colorful art style like Overwatch, Battleborn, Atlas Reactor, Team Fortress etc, the quality is in the models because the art assets don't benefit from much detail.

So yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Hopefully, instead of arguing and debating things you are clueless about, while engaging in attacks, that you take the time to actually learn something - even if it's coming from someone you don't like. There is no shame in that; only knowledge.

BOOM!! Confirmed (12:26). Told ya!

[video=youtube_share;_7GG0y8Jmcs]https://youtu.be/_7GG0y8Jmcs?t=689[/video]

 

[ianw]

New ATV is up, this time from the Frankfurt, where the magic happens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7GG0y8Jmcs

PS- Contrary to what was spread by some through here, 2.6 patch testing is not delayed as it was allways planned to be in late early October for the Evocati. 3.0 is and was allways schedule for end of the Year since the announcement in Gamescom. As usual Citizencon should bring more news about that and Squadron 42 release date.

Can you please point to a time stamp where they say a date for 2.6 being released to the baby PU and they confirm 3.0 being released to the baby PU before the end of the year?

It's 25 mins of CIG/RSI waffle - aint nobody got time fo dat!

 

[CMDR_Orlando]

Can you please point to a time stamp where they say a date for 2.6 being released to the baby PU and they confirm 3.0 being released to the baby PU before the end of the year?

It's 25 mins of CIG/RSI waffle - aint nobody got time fo dat!

That was said in the Gamescom event by Chris Roberts, he talked about their roadmap there and it was already discussed here multiple times.

 

[Tippis]

Uncharted doesn't even go for a realistic approach to characters, it goes for a painted art style, similar to a Disney movie.

You have never seen even a single frame of that game, have you?

Being only focused on PC means that Star Citizen is not hindered by outdated hardware from consoles

…and yet, it's character models look outright abysmal compared to what's currently available on console platforms.