The Star Citizen Thread v5

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Tosh.

That is a blatant lie. Chris Roberts didn't "choose" to leave the helm of Freelancer. After almost 3 years of ever increasing difficulties with the production and a ballooning budget, Micro$oft came in to ask what was going on and found that things weren't going well at Digital Anvil.... and also that Roberts appeared to be diverting funds for making Freelancer into making that terri-bad Wing Commander movie.

Chris was thus removed from heading the project by Micro$oft, moved out from any sort of actual influence in making the game, into a "special consultancy" role. A more polite way of getting booted out on his rear.

Micro$oft then had to struggle for another 2-3 years to get the game out in a form that would make a return on their investment.

Stop trying to re-write history so dishonestly.

You do realize that the only time Microsoft was involved at Digital Anvil was after they bought out Erin & Chris Roberts right? You make it sound like Microsoft was already giving them tons of cash and owned the studio. Before the buyout, they had no involvement with the studio. Digital Anvil did not have the funds to continue developing the game due to the needed push back in game delivery, that is when Microsoft came in and offered a buy out and a fat wad of cash to work on the game, the Robert's brothers took it and CR was retained as a consultant, and he departed 6 months later. Then 3 years later game was delivered with a reduced feature set.

I backed SC in 2012 and backed Elite to the "Premium" level, I can say I am pretty satisfied with both games. I am enjoying playing Elite right now while SC is being developed. I just don't seem to see all the hate that CIG is getting, but maybe because they have raised $125 million and still have yet to deliver the game. But what I am wondering is, what did people expect? CIG was only a team of 11 people at end of 2012 when they got $6 million. Do you realize what that means? They had no studio and no workforce, they had to build everything from the ground up. That takes a lot of time, especially the hiring process. Here we are now, almost 4 yrs later and they are sitting at 350 CIG people and I believe 150 contractors. They lost a ton of development time, something you can't just catch up on by throwing money into. Not to mention they are developing a brand new IP from the ground up, when you do this, it takes even longer than building your standard game, because you have no assets/universe/etc. to use in the new game. On top of that, they are spreading their resources between two games, a single player game and an MMO. I think looking back, even a much smaller game, would probably take a longer period of time to finish for them, not because of complexity, or other factors, but simply because they were not even a studio.

Although they have had plenty of hiccups along the way: They are pretty bad about communication, setting expectations, delivering on time and sometimes game design decisions. They built ships before they had a solid flight model down, they built ships before they nailed down console work, cargo and many other items. It could very well be they did not have the people at the time to work on it.

But in general, I think at the end of the day, as long as CIG is able to deliver a fun game, it will be fine. If they fail, there are going to be some big consequences for the crowd funding industry. Right now, at least in my opinion it is still way too early to tell which way the game will end up, its basically in its early stages for the MMO part and that can change a lot between now and release.

Personally, I think too many people here get hanged up on "But they are missing their promised delivery schedule" and do not look at the bigger picture. It's two games being worked on at the same time, by a brand new studio which did not even exist 4 years ago, oh and they started with 11 people. I think people are expecting miracles to happen here.

I think if CIG/CR is guilty of anything is that their initial pitch time line was extremely unrealistic, even with a much smaller game, when we had <$10 million, they would of not been able to push the game out in the timeline they promised, they had no studio and they had no developers. That takes a long time to build and find the talent. Just look at what Frontier managed to push out with the initial release of Elite and that was with 90 developers working on it from the get go and some unknown number of years of prototyping by a small team. I think that speaks volumes to development time.
 
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Source please. An actual verifiable source, stating the amount of refunds paid.

I don't think you will ever see those, much like how people want to see CIG's books, they are a private company and basically is up to CIG if they want to release that or not. Speaking of finances, I remember a long time ago people wanting cameras in CIG offices to see that people are working on the game.
 
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Ok, lets take 5 years as the number you choose. Now tell me for each of the years how many people they actually had working on the game, compared to when an already established studio is working on a franchise, let alone a new one. Now break it down by a monthly basis for me, because CIG started with 11 people at end of 2012.
 
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You do realize that the only time Microsoft was involved at Digital Anvil was after they bought out Erin & Chris Roberts right? You make it sound like Microsoft was already giving them tons of cash and owned the studio. Before the buyout, they had no involvement with the studio. Digital Anvil did not have the funds to continue developing the game due to the needed push back in game delivery, that is when Microsoft came in and offered a buy out and a fat wad of cash to work on the game, the Robert's brothers took it and CR was retained as a consultant, and he departed 6 months later. Then 3 years later game was delivered with a reduced feature set.

I backed SC in 2012 and backed Elite to the "Premium" level, I can say I am pretty satisfied with both games. I am enjoying playing Elite right now while SC is being developed. I just don't seem to see all the hate that CIG is getting, but maybe because they have raised $125 million and still have yet to deliver the game. But what I am wondering is, what did people expect? CIG was only a team of 11 people at end of 2012 when they got $6 million. Do you realize what that means? They had no studio and no workforce, they had to build everything from the ground up. That takes a lot of time, especially the hiring process. Here we are now, almost 4 yrs later and they are sitting at 350 CIG people and I believe 150 contractors. They lost a ton of development time, something you can't just catch up on by throwing money into. Not to mention they are developing a brand new IP from the ground up, when you do this, it takes even longer than building your standard game, because you have no assets/universe/etc. to use in the new game. On top of that, they are spreading their resources between two games, a single player game and an MMO. I think looking back, even a much smaller game, would probably take a longer period of time to finish for them, not because of complexity, or other factors, but simply because they were not even a studio.

Although they have had plenty of hiccups along the way: They are pretty bad about communication, setting expectations, delivering on time and sometimes game design decisions. They built ships before they had a solid flight model down, they built ships before they nailed down console work, cargo and many other items. It could very well be they did not have the people at the time to work on it.

But in general, I think at the end of the day, as long as CIG is able to deliver a fun game, it will be fine. If they fail, there are going to be some big consequences for the crowd funding industry. Right now, at least in my opinion it is still way too early to tell which way the game will end up, its basically in its early stages for the MMO part and that can change a lot between now and release.

Personally, I think too many people here get hanged up on "But they are missing their promised delivery schedule" and do not look at the bigger picture. It's two games being worked on at the same time, by a brand new studio which did not even exist 4 years ago, oh and they started with 11 people. I think people are expecting miracles to happen here.

I think if CIG/CR is guilty of anything is that their initial pitch time line was extremely unrealistic, even with a much smaller game, when we had <$10 million, they would of not been able to push the game out in the timeline they promised, they had no studio and they had no developers. That takes a long time to build and find the talent. Just look at what Frontier managed to push out with the initial release of Elite and that was with 90 developers working on it from the get go and some unknown number of years of prototyping by a small team. I think that speaks volumes to development time.

^ This Right Here ^ +42 [up]

See the forest for the trees!

Game development takes time. Studios are built and growing. Money still coming in. It's just a matter of time.

Does this seem like a company that is decreasing in productivity or increasing?

kotaku_map_4-1024x577.png


15 Days Left! Bring on Citizencon!
 
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Ok, lets take 5 years as the number you choose. Now tell me for each of the years how many people they actually had working on the game, compared to when an already established studio is working on a franchise, let alone a new one. Now break it down by a monthly basis for me, because started with 11 people at end of 2012.

I don't need to explain anything the games been in development for 5 years.
 
You do realize that the only time Microsoft was involved at Digital Anvil was after they bought out Erin & Chris Roberts right? You make it sound like Microsoft was already giving them tons of cash and owned the studio. Before the buyout, they had no involvement with the studio. Digital Anvil did not have the funds to continue developing the game due to the needed push back in game delivery, that is when Microsoft came in and offered a buy out and a fat wad of cash to work on the game, the Robert's brothers took it and CR was retained as a consultant, and he departed 6 months later. Then 3 years later game was delivered with a reduced feature set.

I have seen it mentioned that Microsoft were the publishers for the game right from the start. If that was the case they probably had some involvement throughout development.

In fact looking at the Best Of The Show awards for 1999 one can see that Digital Anvil/Microsoft scooped the prize
http://www.gamecriticsawards.com/1999winners.html
 
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Now you know they've not just been concealing dumb self inflicted problems for two years but have deliberately given an unrealistic picture of progress to backers whilst blaming Derek and threatening the escapist do you think you've been wasting your time ?.

Nope because I really don't care about those things. Every company has the right to privacy and airing out those problems they were having at the time would have been very unprofessional. I look at those problems as growing pains with a little bit of, for lack of a better term, faulty strategizing sprinkled within.

I don't look at it as time wasted because I got to see how a studio created and develop their game; how not to interact with a community; see an alternative principle of game development. All of that has gotten me to start thinking about a few games I want to create (90's survival horror clone, a metroid/castlevania-esque game or something more ambitious like an open world SW action/adventure game).

Show me a studio that were both developing a game and building up their studio at the same time, and did it flawlessly.
 
You do realize that the only time Microsoft was involved at Digital Anvil was after they bought out Erin & Chris Roberts right? You make it sound like Microsoft was already giving them tons of cash and owned the studio. Before the buyout, they had no involvement with the studio. Digital Anvil did not have the funds to continue developing the game due to the needed push back in game delivery, that is when Microsoft came in and offered a buy out and a fat wad of cash to work on the game, the Robert's brothers took it and CR was retained as a consultant, and he departed 6 months later. Then 3 years later game was delivered with a reduced feature set.

Thanks, I made an error in describing the issues at Digital Anvil. I had forgotten that Micro$oft had moved in to acquire Digital Anvil.
However, MS *did* end up buying them out, mostly because Digital Anvil was running out of money and the production of the game was stalling seriously after nearly 3 years. In effect, Chris Roberts got bailed out and Micro$oft made sure that part of the takeover deal involved him stepping down from his lead role to become a "consultant" on a project he had started... that is a humiliating climb down in anyone's book, especially the tiny mention of Chris Roberts in the Freelancer game credits when it was released.
 
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I don't need to explain anything the games been in development for 5 years.

Yeah except its not black and white like you are trying to make it or for that matter, a lot of people here. I do know that at end of 2012, they had no studios and 11 people working on the project and I do know that now in 2016, they have 350+ people and 4 studios. Hey I would totally be sympathetic with you on this, if they actually had the 350 people working on this thing from day one, but they did not. How big of an impact it took on development is probably huge, they had to hire for every single position.

Careful Stigbob. I think Chris just pressed the "Release the hounds" button.

Yeah because somebody who backed both games from Alpha and tries to have a civil discussion is a CR hound. Man, since I left this thread 1-2 years ago it's become an echo chamber of negativity, at least back then there were actual two sides on the argument.

Thanks, I made an error in describing the issues at Digital Anvil. I had forgotten that Micro$oft had moved in to acquire Digital Anvil.
However, MS *did* end up buying them out, mostly because Digital Anvil was running out of money and the production of the game was stalling seriously after nearly 3 years. In effect, Chris Roberts got bailed out and Micro$oft made sure that part of the takeover deal involved him stepping down from his lead role to become a "consultant" on a project he had started... that is a humiliating climb down in anyone's book, especially the tiny mention of Chris Roberts in the Freelancer game credits when it was released.

Well yes, they bought them out because MS was getting into the gaming world and Digital Anvil was a good studio was some decent games under their belt. Well, I am not going to speculate on what the buyout deal entailed, it could also mean that CR was not interested in staying after the buyout or he wanted to do something else, he has been directing since the early 90's and enjoyed it a lot, he did go into the movie industry after that buy out. It's not something that is humiliating, a lot of the times when companies buy others out there will be some leadership changes.
 
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Nope because I really don't care about those things. Every company has the right to privacy and airing out those problems they were having at the time would have been very unprofessional. I look at those problems as growing pains with a little bit of, for lack of a better term, faulty strategizing sprinkled within.

I don't look at it as time wasted because I got to see how a studio created and develop their game; how not to interact with a community; see an alternative principle of game development. All of that has gotten me to start thinking about a few games I want to create (90's survival horror clone, a metroid/castlevania-esque game or something more ambitious like an open world SW action/adventure game).

Show me a studio that were both developing a game and building up their studio at the same time, and did it flawlessly.

How does their right to privacy mesh with the rambling 8 pages of dishonest drivel scapegoating Derek Smart that Chris Roberts sent to the Escapist and posted on his companies website.
 
Also:

BEST GAME, PC
BEST SIMULATION
OUTSTANDING ACHIEVEMENT IN GRAPHICS

Well, this was 1999 when they were showing off their tech demo rather than an actual game so personally I wouldn't use that as a claim to greatness. We saw the same thing happen recently with NMS.
 
Multiple studios does not necessarily help the "it takes time" side of things. Time, unless things stretch out for the next dearth of space games, is something Chris does not have. The niche is being filled. Even if Cod:IW, ME:A, Angels Fall First, and a host of others do not offer players "everything," the way CR has promised, they appeal to those select features that players want. When you offer fps/mining/piracy/farming/ambulatory services/news vans/shopping/boarding/etc., very few are going to be doing it all. They will only be playing some of those roles. Heck, there may be people who want none of those. It's very possible no one wants to homestead on different planets, or that there's one news reporter in his space actions news ship trying to record people...hand loading their cargo ships, or playing Farm Simulator in a biodome. Give people a few things, and expand from there. If we go MVP, it's viable, but we don't even know exactly what's going to be in that, or when it's going to be delivered (and I'll settle for a given year* that we can look forward to these things). Right now, we can go on CR's word, and take things to task/make skeptical posts when those dates are missed. The devs and designers work very hard at these studios, but the biggest albatross around this project's neck is the one person who has repeatedly made promises and saddled the team with things that eventually have to get moved down the line to "someday," and consequently has to keep walking things back to an elusive MVP.
 
Yep. Mirroring the state of SC :)


Not going to dent you on that. It's an accurate statement of the main forums, especially if you are trying to give some good critical feedback, but the reddit section for the game is much better regarding that. It kind of reminds me of these main forums as well compared to the elite reddit section :)
 
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