The Star Citizen Thread v5

[Ian Skippy]

I do believe that the initial pvp slider has gone away. I think they're more in favor of the EVE system where core systems will be safe and progressively get less safe the farther away you are. I'm sure there will be nullsec places peppered inside the core systems too.

But thats the problem: you 'believe' and 'think' they may have dropped this and favor something else. Why dont we know stuff like this for sure?The 'open development' thing is partly the core of SC, with people being bombarded with vids. But when it comes to core game mechanisms we're left guessing. And when the 'mvp' will include a handful of systems, how will such a system work?

Getting thousands of people in same instance is peanuts. It has been done and it can be done on server - issue is money. Update speed however is another topic completely, amount of traffic between server and client will reach unmanageable levels easily.

Well, I am assuming that they wont just 'be in the same instance', but will actually do stuff. The record is indeed PS2, and even in such a rather simplified setting there are many compromises being made to make that happen. It just doesn't match the 'best/deepest space sim' thing CR assures is will happen at some point.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Which is why current guiness world record is 1158 people in the same server instance (huge continent in PS2, easily 50-60 instances in normal understanding), if it were peanuts we'd be doing that in many games right now. Not even money helps, unless you pay for upgrading each client to 1gbit connection and have crazy NSA throughput

Unless CR really means "thousand people in a instance" in a meta instance sense, and then use instance joinging/spiltting as ED do. Which wouldn't surprise me at all - CR loves to twist words so it sounds more important and unique than it actually is. And as FD improves persistence between local combat instances - there are lot of things already fixed - it really will make very little difference.

 

[Toumal]

Videos showing the sights and general awesomeness of ED (or any game) are fine. Videos of someone standing in front of a camera saying stuff about "what this game means to me" are a bit... cringeworthy?

To be fair, if someone did a video like this about ED, I'd join in the laughter. Because if you can't laugh about your favorite game then something is wrong.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

But thats the problem: you 'believe' and 'think' they may have dropped this and favor something else. Why dont we know stuff like this for sure?The 'open development' thing is partly the core of SC, with people being bombarded with vids. But when it comes to core game mechanisms we're left guessing. And when the 'mvp' will include a handful of systems, how will such a system work?

Exactly this. Open development...it is very mixed bag. Long term gameplay design elements are very hidden at this point - mostly because CIG has never had proper specification down yet prior SC Alpha 3.0 - and even then it feels very much throwing everything we can have to the wall and what works and what not. I also "believe" that PvP slider has been neutered and never would really have worked. But yeah, there is zero official confirmation or anything. We know cargo will load instantly, but we don't know how basic PvE/PvP will work.

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To be fair, if someone did a video like this about ED, I'd join in the laughter. Because if you can't laugh about your favorite game then something is wrong.

So much this. We have seen both community and FD being able to make a giggle about themselves, when something cringeoworthy goes on. I am yet to see that from CIG and SC community really.

 

[briguy168]

If the MVP optimistically launches with 5 systems, it isn't going to offer much of a grade scale on where to hide :/ Lave, Zaonce, Tionisla, Leesti, Orerre...

That's assuming there will be 5 systems for the MVP. Conservative estimates are more like 15 - 20.

Assuming that 1 planet can be created within a few days (average planets is 3 per system) 3 * 110 = ~330 planets. That's about ~990 days for 110 systems; or about 2.71 years. Now for 15 systems they would need to do 45 planets which will take 135 days (.37 years). That is with one artist.

I'm sure it will take some time to put in most the points of interest, so lets say that requires about three weeks which equals 15 three-week intervals. That turns out to be roughly 11 months time....again with one artist.

 

[Backer42]

Anyone got any thoughts on how all this will play out?

Yes, 24 player universe shards on cloud servers with client-side NPCs pretending to be other players.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Unless CR really means "thousand people in a instance" in a meta instance sense, and then use instance joinging/spiltting as ED do. Which wouldn't surprise me at all - CR loves to twist words so it sounds more important and unique than it actually is. And as FD improves persistence between local combat instances - there are lot of things already fixed - it really will make very little difference.

Briguy/Orlando can probably link to it, but from what I remember he seemed to quite clearly say that it would be like PS2, not like ED. So really thousands of people in one instance. I mean, suppose a 'org' fights another org. Both have two idris and a bunch of support. You already need an 75+ instance limits just for that...

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That's assuming there will be 5 systems for the MVP. Conservative estimates are more like 15 - 20.

Assuming that 1 planet can be created within a few days (average planets is 3 per system) 3 * 110 = ~330 planets. That's about ~990 days for 110 systems; or about 2.71 years. Now for 15 systems they would need to do 45 planets which will take 135 days (.37 years). That is with one artist.

I'm sure it will take a some time to put in most the points of interest, so lets say that requires about three weeks which equals 15 three-week intervals. That turns out to be roughly 11 months time....again with one artist.

I suggest we leave these statements till we have actual evidence that 1) it really does take one day, and 2) the planets are any good.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Briguy/Orlando can probably link to it, but from what I remember he seemed to quite clearly say that it would be like PS2, not like ED. So really thousands of people in one instance. I mean, suppose a 'org' fights another org. Both have two idris and a bunch of support. You already need an 75+ instance limits just for that...

They are both blocked, and to be fair I don't think it is one shard instance. Most likely split instances based on distance. Ergo, how ED is designed (instances are done by distance between players). For instance that big to be any useful you will have it to be actually split and data optimized and you will send only necessary stuff to client.

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I suggest we leave these statements till we have actual evidence that 1) it really does take one day, and 2) the planets are any good.

Push out PG planets are really not that hard. Making system work as whole however will take time. I really don't think SC will benefit for maxing out systems in any SC alphas at this point - if gameplay works in three of them, it will work in rest, so why bother.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Ironically, I found explanation how Planetside 2 actually works in CIG forums

Planetside 2 work with different distances of render for different units sizes, for example (all numbers are just invented numbers), you can see tanks and planes like 1k away or less, but soldiers only from 300m or less, with a number limit of 200 units at the same time, if that limit is reach, then the server reduce the distance of render dynamically to maintain the unit limit, for example, tanks and planes from 500m away or less, and soldiers from 100m away or less.

As I predicted, it is LOD system combined with dynamic instancing networking. Now add that you need this to be dynamic at meta level as well (Planetside 2 is one fixed instance/continent).

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Thanks to everyone who answered my question. It kind of confirms what i've been thinking (although based on a lot of assumptions). That while there are some cool gameplay elements that might exist in SC, perhaps the devs haven't really looked at how it will play out in reality once you get lots of players playing in the real game. Well, maybe they have thought about it, and like what they see.... but networking, its going to be tricky.

I do believe that the initial pvp slider has gone away. I think they're more in favor of the EVE system where core systems will be safe and progressively get less safe the farther away you are. I'm sure there will be nullsec places peppered inside the core systems too. So essentially the pvp slider turned into a logical slider in which the farther you go out the more likely you will encounter another player for open pvp.

So, what you are saying is all the EvE players currently playing ED are likely to switch to playing SC when its released?

You do not know how happy that makes me!

 

[briguy168]

But thats the problem: you 'believe' and 'think' they may have dropped this and favor something else. Why dont we know stuff like this for sure?The 'open development' thing is partly the core of SC, with people being bombarded with vids. But when it comes to core game mechanisms we're left guessing. And when the 'mvp' will include a handful of systems, how will such a system work?

Whelp, cannot argue with you there.

 

[Ian Skippy]

As I predicted, it is LOD system combined with dynamic instancing networking. Now add that you need this to be dynamic at meta level as well (Planetside 2 is one fixed instance/continent).

Well, not really. It gets weird when things get massive in PS. For example, when a soldier sees a ship at some distance, he can shoot at it. However, the ship wont see the soldier until he is closer, but will take damage. Its a trade-off that works in PS: its cool and dying every now and then because of it doesnt really matter. In ED/SC all hell would break lose if people lost ships...

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Well, not really. It gets weird when things get massive in PS. For example, when a soldier sees a ship at some distance, he can shoot at it. However, the ship wont see the soldier until he is closer, but will take damage. Its a trade-off that works in PS: its cool and dying every now and then because of it doesnt really matter. In ED/SC all hell would break lose if people lost ships...

Because you will respawn, and most likely approximation going on all objects in network space is massive (and I understand seeing ships in distance). Interesting note about random, unseen fire killing your ship...people already rage about "cheating" NPCs....It is completely another level of can of worms right there.

Anyway, such system is suitable for CZ style POIs. For regular gameplay it most likely can't be used that well.

 

[FuriousMeow]

Yeah, the NPCs were finally a challenge and suddenly they were cheating... it couldn't possibly be that those players just weren't as good as they thought they were... So disappointing when the NPCs were actually a challenge and then had to be nerfed because of "I should be able to kill anything because I have an A rated Anaconda!" whiners.

 

[Toumal]

Gamestar article on the recent Kotaku coverage:

http://www.gamestar.de/specials/reports/3303349/star_citizen_p3.html

The anonymous sources, who claimed that Roberts' design goals would be impossible to realize, are proven wrong by the current Alpha version. For example, CIG implemented a multilayered inventory and clothing system, and the team succeeded in synchronizing the first and third person perspectives.

Oh good! Too bad that neither of those things were ever among the items listed as "impossible to realize".
But it's smart to aim low I guess. And good to know that Gamestar sees matching first and third person animations as something groundbreaking, even though they should know better, having reviewed Arma3 themselves...

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Yeah, the NPCs were finally a challenge and suddenly they were cheating... it couldn't possibly be that those players just weren't as good as they thought they were... So disappointing when the NPCs were actually a challenge and then had to be nerfed because of "I should be able to kill anything because I have an A rated Anaconda!" whiners.

To be fair NPCs had fair share of bugs which made them more deadly than devs intended. They are still formidable opponents and they still get called out on cheating...I am getting massively downvoted every time I mention they don't cheat in combat. SJA have chosen not to bother to explain it anymore. So overall yeah, people already feel game threats them unfairly...add such random fire in combat which you really can't see or avoid....sea of tears.

That doesn't say PS2 instancing isn't cool. Heck, it is. But application matters. SC is planned to be a way more complex game than PS2. And PS2 took some time to get there.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Gamestar article on the recent Kotaku coverage:

http://www.gamestar.de/specials/reports/3303349/star_citizen_p3.html



Oh good! Too bad that neither of those things were ever among the items listed as "impossible to realize".
But it's smart to aim low I guess. And good to know that Gamestar sees matching first and third person animations as something groundbreaking, even though they should know better, having reviewed Arma3 themselves...

Wasn't Gamestar practically CR cheerleader's band at this point?

Also     is "synchronizing the first and third person perspectives"? How that's even achievement?

 

[Backer42]

Oh good! Too bad that neither of those things were ever among the items listed as "impossible to realize".
But it's smart to aim low I guess. And good to know that Gamestar sees matching first and third person animations as something groundbreaking, even though they should know better, having reviewed Arma3 themselves...

Gamestar is more or less a Crytek PR front. They will defend anything that comes out of Frankfurt, even past its death.

 

[Stigbob]

After all the crowded instances talk, I've been thinking about people getting their expensive in game ships destroyed. I really can't see people just shrugging off the loss of hundreds of dollars worth of ship to suicide rammers or bugs or even perfectly normal game-play losses. CiG will have to replace lost ships that have been bought by backers, there's no other way they can approach it. People have actually paid real money for them they have to be allowed access to the product they bought.

So whats the point of LTI ?.

 

[dsmart]

Serious question time, something that has been on my mind.

Anyone got any thoughts on how all this will play out?

Yes. It's never coming out. Meanwhile Ben et al get to pull a paycheck until they either quit or CIG/RSI can no longer afford to fund the dream.

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Getting thousands of people in same instance is peanuts. It has been done and it can be done on server - issue is money. Update speed however is another topic completely, amount of traffic between server and client will reach unmanageable levels easily.

LMAO!! uhm, no.

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Gamestar article on the recent Kotaku coverage:

http://www.gamestar.de/specials/reports/3303349/star_citizen_p3.html



Oh good! Too bad that neither of those things were ever among the items listed as "impossible to realize".
But it's smart to aim low I guess. And good to know that Gamestar sees matching first and third person animations as something groundbreaking, even though they should know better, having reviewed Arma3 themselves...

Nobody outside some guys in Germany, pay attention to those shills anymore. It's a foregone conclusion that they're in CIG/RSI pocket. Move along.

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Gamestar is more or less a Crytek PR front. They will defend anything that comes out of Frankfurt, even past its death.

Yes. And a source already gave me the relationship rundown from this past Summer, around the time they went after LOD and tried to company it to SC. Yes - they actually did that. Seriously.