Why is any of this relevant? If there were visible progress nobody would care.
Say if half of the promised scope would be in game now. But imo we are below 1% atm.
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The Star Citizen Thread v5
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Why is any of this relevant? If there were visible progress nobody would care.
Say if half of the promised scope would be in game now. But imo we are below 1% atm.
I don't think SC is a scam. Outright scam anyway.
Do I think CR is a megalomaniac and is the largest single impediment to this project?
Yes.
Do I think that CR has bitten off more than he can deliver and doing it badly to boot?
Hell yes.
As you say Brian and I agree:
I do believe it will release "given time" .... a lot of time though and.....
" in some form or other"... TOTALLY believe this. The form it will take will be very interesting indeed and I'm happy to bet that it won't resemble much of CR's twaddle. Just like Freelancer all over again.
Do I think CR is a megalomaniac and is the largest single impediment to this project?
Yes.
Do I think that CR has bitten off more than he can deliver and doing it badly to boot?
Hell yes.
As you say Brian and I agree:
I do believe it will release "given time" .... a lot of time though and.....
" in some form or other"... TOTALLY believe this. The form it will take will be very interesting indeed and I'm happy to bet that it won't resemble much of CR's twaddle. Just like Freelancer all over again.
So we can all agree that we are five years into development (entering 6th year in 2 weeks) and they still haven't reached alpha release.
Man they're doomed.
No all that evidence is circumstantial at best and petty at worst. Nothing that has been put forth indicates any kind of malfeasance and is only grasping at straws. Sure there have been hiccups but nothing that is so egregious that it's breaking any laws that I've read.
The question most here are asking is this:"Given how hopeless the development of SC has been for so many years, can it really be that CR is that incompetent, or is there some other explanation?"
Some here believe that CR is really that incompetent, despite meaning well. Others believe noone can be that stupid, so there has to be some kind of intentional scamming involved. Others seem to be completely oblivious of any kind of issue in any way, and seem puzzled by what everyone else is talking about. While the first two have some common ground to discuss, the third has such a wildly different perspective that its very hard to have any kind of meaningful debate. Anyway, just got the weekly CIG email about citizencon, so buckle up and lets see whats what.
That's all find and dandy but the moment those grievances start being touted as fact is when I start calling bull . Leave the conspiracies out of the overall discussion.
I never made that connection at all, I only said that it's the same construct that racist use to justify their opinions. My intent was never to equate that someone who is critical or has descenting opinions are racist. Please don't put words in my mouth
Nope, see the status quo is that they aren't scamming people. To make a claim that they are scamming, you have to provide evidence to the contrary. Since there is no evidence, all it is is subjective conjecture which adds nothing to a debate or discussion except furthering an unsubstantiated opinion.
So if you truly believe that CIG is scamming people, put up your undeniable evidence.
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Why is anything else on this thread relevant? Oh, mysteries of the universe...
Your basic argument was that because other companies have scammed people, CIG has the potential to scam people which means that I have carte blanche to accuse them of scamming people. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
So tell me again how mismanaging things is equivalent to scamming people. I really want to know the mental gymnastics required to make that claim viable.
So you are basically calling...sorry alluding to...them being a scam because they have the right to not disclose how they have spent their money. Sound logic that is! I mean it's perfectly fine to not trust CIG because you got burned before but to equate them as a scam because you don't like what they're doing is something completely different.
Something about that $60M number: it really depends on how they are doing their accounting for the project. Last year when I did cost calculations and figured they would have spent about $60M by the end of 2015 that was figuring in around $15M in one time production costs for SQ42 with that number conceivably being as high as $20M depending on exactly how much the actors cost. With the reshoots that have gone on I could see that number reaching $25M - $30M easier than you might think.
So what about the other $30M? Well that's accounting tricks with staff salaries of the animators over the life of the project. If you look at SC as being one project, might assign employee and related contractor costs to general staff overhead. But on a large project it is not uncommon to assign costs to specific areas. Networking got 100 man hours costing $X, database team got 200 man hours costing $Y, etc.. So if you assign those salaries for 4 years, because animation has been going on longer than hiring out mo cap, look at the old commercials, and then lump in all those man hours and associated costs into that area of the project you might be able to come up with $60M.
But even to me that sounds a bit high.
So what about the other $30M? Well that's accounting tricks with staff salaries of the animators over the life of the project. If you look at SC as being one project, might assign employee and related contractor costs to general staff overhead. But on a large project it is not uncommon to assign costs to specific areas. Networking got 100 man hours costing $X, database team got 200 man hours costing $Y, etc.. So if you assign those salaries for 4 years, because animation has been going on longer than hiring out mo cap, look at the old commercials, and then lump in all those man hours and associated costs into that area of the project you might be able to come up with $60M.
But even to me that sounds a bit high.
Its a mild form of the Epicurus argument against God. In this, considering the extend of the mismanagement, there are two options:
1) CR is incompetent.
2) CR is 'evil'.
Personally, if I were to guess, I'd say its in between the two. Due to his incompetence, the development is constantly in trouble, which puts pressure on him, which makes him say stuff he really should not be saying (lets call it the Sean Murray syndrome
), which forces him to cover his back. But again, I think the intuitive idea that CR is a fraud comes initially from a complete lack of understanding how someone able to get so much support and money, and in that way being quite brilliant at PR, can at the same time be so incredibly stupid when it comes to his actual job.Whether it is a scam/fraud or not is something neither you nor I can say for sure. DS claims he has evidence, and the way he is going either CR (fraud) or DS (defamation/slander/whatever) will be in trouble in court soon.
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Its a mild form of the Epicurus argument against God. In this, considering the extend of the mismanagement, there are two options:
1) CR is incompetent.
2) CR is 'evil'.
Personally, if I were to guess, I'd say its in between the two. Due to his incompetence, the development is constantly in trouble, which puts pressure on him, which makes him say stuff he really should not be saying (lets call it the Sean Murray syndrome
Whether it is a scam/fraud or not is something neither you nor I can say for sure. DS claims he has evidence, and the way he is going either CR (fraud) or DS (defamation/slander/whatever) will be in trouble in court soon.
There is no proof of any kind of mismanagement or incompetency, aside from the load of conspiracy theories from this thread and the anti-chris-roberts blog. Which again have no proof. So all the recurrent "mismanagement/incompetency/fraud/scam" debate on this thread is pretty much baseless and useless. A great exercise in imagination for sure, but such skills would be far more profitable by writing novels instead of posting fictional theories on a forum.
The only proof of mismanagement or incompetency needed is what is delivered as the work product, and any deviations from the product description on the basis on which it was sold.
Genuine Roberts has promised X,Y and Z. The game, if it is ever released, has to include X,Y and Z. His problem is that he's made outrageous claims about their properties, which he has to deliver upon.
Genuine Roberts has promised X,Y and Z. The game, if it is ever released, has to include X,Y and Z. His problem is that he's made outrageous claims about their properties, which he has to deliver upon.
Read the Kotaku article..and put your attention on CR own damn words in that article.
Since you're so keen on demanding evidence let's see yours.
You claim the status quo is "there is no scam".
But you haven't backed this up with anything.
Here are some of the things we can see;
The software or "game" is broken - still.
Lot's of promises have been made that have been changed.
There is zero independent financial evidence as to the financial state of affairs of the company(ies).
Chris made all sorts of promises about features with no knowledge of what the engine could actually do.
They still don't know what the engine can do after all their ongoing changes.
Chris has admitted that as a multi-site organisation they are functionally incompetent (obvious - shame he couldn't factor that into his promises) - he even admitted some of that was down to him - but it's clear given his penchant for micro managing that everything that has gone wrong is down to him.
And then he signed off on T&C's that state they are under no obligation to deliver anything and that anyone stupid enough to buy in from that point waives their legal rights.
So at this point I'd say you have shown no undeniable evidence it isn't a "scam" just as I have no undeniable evidence it is.
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It is a fact that less than 1% of the promised features/scope are in the current build.
Chris himself admitted the Illfonic fiasco was down to him/CIG/RSI whatever they are calling themselves at this particular moment.
What about the Crobblers admission in an interview that Illphonics work (lots of time and backers money) went to waste because it was made to the wrong scale. That's no conspiracy theory that's the Crobblers explanation for what happened to Star Marine. He acknowledged it involved errors and mistakes and claimed to have learned from it.
Clearly there was a level of incompetent organization in specifying what was required, supervising the subcontractor and drawing up the contract.
What was useless was the information given to Illphonic.
What was baseless were the claims that Star Marine was already in the game.
Its a mild form of the Epicurus argument against God. In this, considering the extend of the mismanagement, there are two options:
1) CR is incompetent.
2) CR is 'evil'.
Personally, if I were to guess, I'd say its in between the two. Due to his incompetence, the development is constantly in trouble, which puts pressure on him, which makes him say stuff he really should not be saying (lets call it the Sean Murray syndrome
Whether it is a scam/fraud or not is something neither you nor I can say for sure. DS claims he has evidence, and the way he is going either CR (fraud) or DS (defamation/slander/whatever) will be in trouble in court soon.
So pretty much this all boils down to subjective opinion that has no basis for any verifiable scam claim. Glad we cleared this up.
About Derek Smart, if he had any verifiable evidence he wouldn't hesitate to release that information to prove that he was right all along. Since he hasn't released any of this supposed evidence and he has been exploding on twitter for the last few days now, I'm speculating here, but all of this posturing will result in a lengthy blog that changes very little to the grand story that is this farce of feud.
But yes you are right that neither you, I or anyone here can say for sure that this game is or isn't a scam but if it is, it's really convincing scam.
I thought my earlier question to you was relevant, but you chose not to answer.
They don't. The Idris as currently designed can't fit into memory.
All the best ones are.
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