Exploration Scans

Javert

Volunteer Moderator
Haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this has already been put forward.

At the risk of giving the server / storage team a heart attack, what I would like to see is:
- A whole new version of "First discovered" as in "First Explored by" for all planets. This would be a flag of the player who first explored the surface of a planet.
- Additional gameplay of some kind around what you would need to actually do to get this flag awarded on any particular planet.
 
I'm quite a fan of the idea floating around that the different scanners should get you different details on the systems map. Advanced giving you full detail, and basic giving you what is current considered a bug in the beta.

And if this was the case would you ever use anything other than the advanced scanner?

Probably not, but guess what? It would allow the players who want to make everything take three times as long a way to give themselves that experience without making a complete mess of it for the rest of us.
 
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Presumably (would be nice to have confirmation) all the bubble systems that new players start with (already have the system map and details for) will automatically have all planets with the 3D surface map and won't require an additional basic (level 2) or detailed (level 3) scan to reveal. So, those players who want to find an interesting canyon to race in, can do so. If they want to find one no-one knows about then they will have to "explore".


I disagree, it makes it something valuable that you have to work for, and this is "fine" because (see above) the bubble systems will come with it built-in and it's only the less travelled systems and the greater galaxy where you have to "explore" for it.

Personally, I like the current beta behaviour (minus the "grey blob" bug of course) as Sandro has described it in post #1. This is an improvement over 2.1 because it adds the detailed/graphical surface view and I don't mind that it requires a surface scan to reveal it. I am assuming that all the default system/planet information a new pilot get includes these surface scan details and that those planets will have the graphical view "by default" with no further scans required.

In the future I would like to see the range of the discovery scanners increased, basic should be 1,000 - 5,000 ls and intermediate 10,000 - 50,000 ls (for example). As it stands people tend not to bother with intermediate, I believe, I certainly didn't bother with it jumping straight to advanced once I had the money and using a basic before that. Intermediate offers so little an improvement that it's not really worth the time.

I would like to see the detailed surface scanner locate (generate) POIs on the planet surface which would contain things like geysers and other large concentrations of salvage, materials, etc - allowing more targetted surface prospecting and collection etc.

I would like for the detailed scanner to locate interesting surface features, like "deepest canyon", "highest peak", "largest plane", etc. Geographical features which are can be found by analysing the data used to render the planet so should be on hand in some form anyway.

I would like to see hand crafted/unique assets for planet surface, like bases built into hillsides, places of natural beauty ("strange rock formations", "interestingly coloured hillsides", etc).

I would like to see beacons at well known locations, like the central star of a nebula, which act like a "visitor book" and a scan will log the player as having visited the location.


I've only started reading this thread but I like a lot of your ideas here. The discovery scanner rage increase would be very useful. Since the ADS is infinite there's plenty of range adjustment possible for the other two. The three discovery scanners also have different ranges when targeting a system body. These could be increased allowing quicker flybys to still get surface maps.

I'm not at my PC but I think the outfitting screen for the ADS shows 33 Ls and the other two show closer ranges. Perhaps the BDS could be increased to 50 Ls, the IDS to 250 Ls and the ADS to 1000 Ls.
 
The majority of people who voted in that forum poll.

That's not the majority of people. Most players don't look at the forums, let alone comment/vote in a thread they care about.

You're right. So tell me, would you imagine on average that players who aren't sufficiently invested in the game as to even look at the official forums would be more or less likely to be in favour of massive timesinks being added to exploration gameplay? Personally, I think logic suggests less likely.
 
I have posted on multiple threads in the beta forums on this subject and I will put up my views one more time here.
I am all for options for different way to reveal the maps as some have suggested with alternate levels from different basic, intermediate & advanced scanner types as long as there is an option to have the bodies along with the new visuals of the surface available after an initial honk.

The reason I am totally against having blobs or the current colours and grid spheres for surface view comes down to 2 key points.

1. The monetary or keep it a mystery its too easy argument I find a bit silly to be honest as you do not explore for the money (lowest payout of any activity in the game atm) added with the sound cue's it will make the cherry picking for ww and elw even more prolific with grey blobs and as I explore to find interesting sights and great views hiding the visual info in the system map will mean it will be even less likely that I will bother scanning anything but the most unusual looking configurations of systems. as it is right now I don't even bother with surface scans unless there is something there that suggests it may have some sights to see such as really short orbital periods or unusual rings etc. I was really excited to see the new planet renders in the system map after a honk as I would finally be able to catch all those really interesting places and take pictures that I currently miss because the majority are golf balls and its a waste of time scanning everything unless there's something that looks like it could yield a sight just from unusual orbits etc.

2. If i am dss or scanning individual bodies then what exactly is the point of having this cool system map functionality ...... just look out the window its faster just to look at the body than it is to wait for the system map to open and to zoom in to the planetary view. So while it may make the body mysterious it also makes it a redundant feature.

Sorry for my stream of consciousness points there but these are the reasons i do not want in system mystery and dss or individual scans should be for getting geological and composition data for sale not visual information. To be honest once you get to elite in exploration the dss becomes a pointless mod to lug around especially if your in a dbx or such then the dss has no purpose unless your reason for exploring is for the money. For me the mystery IS the system. You got to it now whats in it? Ok now I know whats in it visually whats here that's worthwhile examining close up for some nice sights and what are standard golf balls.

Exploration still needs a lot of love in the form of mechanics and things to discover but restricting the visuals removes it. I would love to have the dss start to do more such     find anomalous data on surfaces that could be geysers or the relics of settlements or the bio features seen in the sneek peeks etc with poi markers etc giving the mystery that the explores want. this also leaves lots of room for expanding the functionality.
Engineering mods could also and functions to the dss to show things like highest concentrations of resources or non natural poi spots etc.

Lots of waffle to chew on (but who doesn't enjoy waffles?)
Cheers
Mall
 
This is my preference:

"Other folk have suggested that bodies discovered by a basic scan should remain as blank spheres in the system map until they have received the attention of a detailed surface scan, as the mystery would entice further investigation. This is also a reasonable suggestion."

This makes sense to me. I can't understand how anyone can argue for something different. This is for explorers and explorers have to... well explore. Plus, finding something interesting after lots of ice rocks, will make exploring more meaningful.

Oh and absolutely NO WAY to have introduce different options to appease casual players - the decision on the final mechanic must be used by all.
 
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Probably not, but guess what? It would allow the players who want to make everything take three times as long a way to give themselves that experience without making a complete mess of it for the rest of us.

Alternatively there was a proposal I put forward which allows the three separate discovery scanners to have a unique purpose each. Key points were:

First off, all scanners should have infinite range. The truncated range of the lower-end scanners make them totally uninteresting to any serious explorer (who wants to discover half a system?)

Given that, the scanners need to differentiate in some other fashion. Assuming that we stay within the range of the existing game mechanics (so no discovering comets or whatever) we need something that makes taking the higher-class scanners a choice rather than an immediate upgrade. My initial thoughts are:

  • Basic: carries out the honk as per the ADS today. Honk time is 5 seconds. No ability to surface scan
  • Intermediate: incorporates the detailed surface scanner. Honk time is 10 seconds. Surface scan distance is as per today.
  • Advanced: incorporates the detailed surface scanner. Honk time is 15 seconds. Surface scan distance is 5x as per today.

By doing this each scanner has benefits and drawbacks. Want to do drive-by honking? Basic is your friend. Generally honk but explore the ones that look earth-like? Go intermediate. Are you a completionist and want to scan every last asteroid? Advanced will save you a lot of time.
 
So i guess one of the things we're asking for in this thread is: what kind of more fundamental changes to exploration and scanning would folk be interested in seeing?

Ok, well, if that's what you're asking Sandro, here's my complete list!

1) I would like to see Discovery Scanners and Detailed Surface Scanners mounted in utility slots, instead of internal compartments. It would help to explain why most of the dedicated explorer ships have 4 utility mounts (which they don't really need) and yet so few internal compartments (which they DO need), while also freeing up internal space for other modules... and all of the other scanners in the game (kill-warrant, FSD wake, & cargo scanners) are all mounted in utility slots, so it would make sense if the Discovery Scanners were as well!

2) Now that we've made some space inside the ships, I would like to add supercruise-capable probes, that can be launched to go and perform surface scans on planets so as to reveal the new 3D map (so you don't have to fly all the way there to scan the planet yourself, which seems to be what so many people are concerned about). Obviously having to launch probes would not be quite as quick as just honking the ADS once, but if the probes are fast enough then it should only be slightly slower - by the time you launch the last probe, the first probe might already be reporting back, so very little time is wasted.

The probes could also introduce new gameplay elements, if they have limited fuel supplies... for example, a probe launched to a nearby world could return to you afterwards, ready to be used again, but a probe launched to a distant world might not have enough fuel to make it back, obliging you to either rendevous with it halfway, or to just abandon the probe and have to synthesize a new one. And if there is an alignment of planets, like there was when Voyager 2 was launched, then you could send a single probe to investigate several planets one after another, making the most efficient use of your fuel - which might be important, if you are in a system with no scoopable stars! Trying to decide how many probes to launch, and what the most efficient route for them to take would be, could become a nice little exploration mini-game...

3) The Orrery View! This would be really useful for when you are trying to determine the most efficient route for your probes, and it would also be useful for my fourth suggestion, too:

4) Nerf the Range on the ADS, and oblige the player to use parallax, and the information available on the system map, to track down other bodies in the system! I can already hear the outrage, but hear me out - most explorers who object to having to use parallax do so because it would be tedious and slow, as well as frustrating and just not rewarding enough - all legitimate points. But most of these complaints only apply when you are trying to find PLANETS via parallax, because after all, planets are small, faint, and you have no way of knowing where they are (or even if there are any at all), you just have to fly around randomly until you stumble across them.

What I am suggesting is that the ADS should have a range of perhaps 50,000 light seconds, enough to find practically every planet orbiting the primary star when you first jump into the system... but if there is another star in the system, more than 50,000 ls away, you have to use parallax to find that star - and ONLY the star, because once you get there you can again find every planet in orbit around it just by honking once. I see this as a good compromise, not just because finding stars is easier than finding planets (they're big, bright, and you know how many there are because even undiscovered stars show up on the system map) - but also because you can use your brains to scientifically work out where the stars will be (based on how they affect the orbit of the primary star, what kind of star it is, what the orbital eccentricity is, etc), and then use parallax while flying in that general direction! It's not random, and it shouldn't take very long - but I'm sure that it would be very satisfying to track down a star like this (much more so that just a honk, anyway...)

I would also buff the range on the Intermediate Discovery Scanner, up to 5,000 ls, which is respectable (about as far out as Saturn in our own solar system) - enough to find almost all Earth-likes, Ammonia Worlds, High Metal Content Worlds, etc... and it makes for a nice progression, with the Basic Discovery Scanner's range being 500 ls, the Intermediate one being 5,000 ls, and the Advanced one being 50,000 ls. (I like number patterns!) I would also rename it the Standard Discovery Scanner, so that it doesn't sound so much like a stepping stone, and I would make it cheaper too, so that some people might actually be tempted to use it...

I see a lot of people in this thread asking for all of the Scanners to be given infinite range, with the Basic showing the black blobs, the Intermediate showing what it does at the moment, and the Advanced showing the full 3D planetary surface, and I admit that this would be a very elegant solution to the current problem. But I never liked the whole "infinite range honk" thang, and I sincerely hope that we get probes (or something!) instead... giving ALL the scanners infinite range would be a step in the wrong direction, in my opinion at least.
 
This is my preference:

"Other folk have suggested that bodies discovered by a basic scan should remain as blank spheres in the system map until they have received the attention of a detailed surface scan, as the mystery would entice further investigation. This is also a reasonable suggestion."

This makes sense to me. I can't understand how anyone can argue for something different. This is for explorers and explorers have to... well explore. Plus, finding something interesting after lots of ice rocks, will make exploring more meaningful.

Oh and absolutely NO WAY to have introduce different options to appease casual players - the decision on the final mechanic must be used by all.

Snobbery.

If this ever came to pass I think I'd just quit the game - I speak as a very experienced and Elite-ranked explorer. This idea is complete tosh.
 
This is my preference:

"Other folk have suggested that bodies discovered by a basic scan should remain as blank spheres in the system map until they have received the attention of a detailed surface scan, as the mystery would entice further investigation. This is also a reasonable suggestion."

This makes sense to me. I can't understand how anyone can argue for something different. This is for explorers and explorers have to... well explore. Plus, finding something interesting after lots of ice rocks, will make exploring more meaningful.

Oh and absolutely NO WAY to have introduce different options to appease casual players - the decision on the final mechanic must be used by all.


So I need to carry a DSS on my racing ships to find nice locations/canyons etc to plot little race courses through, go back to a station to sell it before returning?

No thanks.
The system map is not /just/ for explorers and I'd rather avoid such an inconvenience just because explorers want the DSS to actually mean something other than more credit reward.
Give it some sort of useful gameplay mechanic, sure, but don't do it at the inconvenience of everyone else just because you want to feel like you have a reason for scanning a planet that isn't just a few extra credits.

Define casual player. Is a casual player someone who dares do something other than explore, hmm?
Am I a casual player for enjoying other aspects of the game and would rather they not be inconvenienced and gated?
 
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Alternatively there was a proposal I put forward which allows the three separate discovery scanners to have a unique purpose each. Key points were:

That does look interesting in terms of a functionality split. Truthfully, I'm at work at the moment and can't really spare the brain-time to consider it in depth though.:D
 
Alright, I'm not one to enter into discussion like this but this one is important. Just so I'm sure I'm not getting confused, we have the Galaxy Map (not important in this talk as far as I know), the System Map, and then the Planetary Map.

For the System Map, I personally don't want any functionality there to change; that means no black spheres replacing the planet textures. Exploration already takes a while as it stands so having black blobs replace the textures is just bad, especially when you consider the sheer quantity of rocky/icy planets out there. If you don't know about the sounds that each type of planet makes when highlighted in the map (please don't touch those either!), then it just gets more awkward. However, the idea with the different discovery scanners yielding different amounts of detail in the SysMap is quite interesting, and I think that so long as the ADS retains all its behaviour from 2.1 and earlier, it would be a good idea to implement that. Thing is, I doubt anyone would use the Basic and Intermediate scanners at all (besides the players still working to secure their wealth) if they're updated in line with those ideas.

For the Planetary Map, things get a little more tricky here. I can understand both sides of the argument as to whether or not the scanners should reveal the surface. Obviously, you want to see if a planet will be worth your time to explore further, but it's also nice to simply fly up to it and discover the surface yourself, at least it is for me. However, I don't even use the planet map unless I have to so whatever happens here makes no difference to me. I think that if the Advanced Discovery Scanner continues to reveal the planetary surface on the map while the other two scanners don't then that would be a good workaround to the issue. The Detailed Surface Scanner when combined with the ADS would just fill in the information panel on the SysMap, but combined with the BDS or IDS then it should add the map into the mix as well.

Just my thoughts.
 
Exploration scanning is seriously missing gameplay mechanics. It's actually kind of absurd how little is actually here, given how big a deal exploration is in the game. I would suggest not changing much from Live until you can actually provide gameplay to scanning.

Thinking BIG: I would like to see "the Honk" class 1 scan replaced with new gameplay. My suggestion would be some kind if "Mass Detection Scope" with new HUD overlay. Potential mass objects could be highlighted or appear as a color-overlay. Pilots would have to point their ship at the signals to investigate and "lock in" real mass objects (planets and stars). There would also be false positives/background noise that could be eliminated in the same manner. The lock-in process should be pretty quick, not like the dreadfully tedious class-2 scans (these should also be improved; made quicker at the very least).

At least this way explorers would actually be doing something to chart the stars.
 
My opinion is that I would like to have the discovery scanner show the 3d-map in the system map like it was in the early 2.2 beta. In second place if this is not selected then I would like it to be so the system 2d map works like it is currently working so you can see the planet texture on the 2d map after a discovery scan.
I absolutely do NOT want the planets to be black after a discovery scan. If that happens I will probably stop exploring even though that has been my primary gameplay so far in Elite Dangerous.



Regarding future changes maybe have something like this:
When do target a body and fly closer to it to do a surface scan (with or without a Detailed Surface Scanner) you would get more information the closer you get to a body. From far away you only get the 3d map, fly closer and you will get composition of rings etc. Fly even closer to get surface materials you can mine with the SRV. Maybe even other things can be discovered at different distances also.
Exactly where the different threshold distances should be for each surface scan would of course be up for discussion.

This is just something I thought of just now so I haven't spent time figuring out the gameplay advantages/disadvantages with this idea or if it would be a fun game mechanic. Perhaps it is not practical to do this depending on how the database is build or how the system currently works and would take too much resources to change.

I also like the idea that different scanners reveal different data. Perhaps that can be combined with my idea above also.
 
The 3D map should only show after a basic or detailed surface scan, not with the honk. This gives real explorers a genuine reason to investigate planets and a tangible reward. Casual explorers who like to honk and go don't need or necessarily have earnt the additional information.
 
THIS is a terrible idea! Don't do it. Without the visual representation of a planets composition I would never scan another planet! Scanning 100's of "mysterious" planets to only find rocky / icy? No thanks! Exploring is already enough of a time sink without additional time wasted scanning worthless planets too!

The thing is, if you are scanning multiple icy bodies or atmosphere-less rocks searching for earth likes or water worlds you are a terrible explorer. You are either looking too far beyond the Goldilocks zone or scanning bodies of insufficient mass to hold an atmosphere. F-Dev came 'this' close to adding a skill requirement for exploration and despite it being a constant criticism that all there was to exploration was 'jump, honk, jump' the merest deviation from that has been met with mass outcry from the player base.

With an improved tool-set this could have been an awesome means of getting exploration closer to a skilled profession and less of a repetitive series of button presses. And by re-balancing the payouts to ensure that any extra time the mechanic takes up is financially compensated there would be no grounds to call it a 'time sink' over what we have now.
 
Since there are a variety of opinions and 2 virtually unused scanners (BDS and IDS), I would highly suggest having multiple options and replace the 2 unused scanners:

All of these would have infinite range:

1) basic scanner: shows only black spheres and stars
2) intermediate scanner: shows full color system maps, but no zoomable planets before a direct scan
3) advanced scanner: shows full color map and zoomable planet surfaces

Oh course there should also be some incentive structure for using the basic and intermediate versions, for example: cost, weight, power usage, size, slot type used (utility vs internal).

This is exactly how I'd love to see the debate resolved. I agree with Ziljan 1000% here. This solution gives every commander an option to play the way they want to while also adding value to all three discovery scanners, because lets face it, the BDS and the IDS are just simply not used in the game right now by anyone other than new commanders with a few hours of play time.

This solution would be absolutely perfect.
 
Can we get a new utility mount of "Scanner dish"? When equipped we don't need to turn and face the target as the dish will turn to face it instead, this should work for ship scans, KWS and cargo scans too.
 
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