The Star Citizen Thread V2.0

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So basically we'll finally see FPS boarding part of the DFM around the time the PU and Squadron 42 Alpha was supposed to arrive in late 2014/early 2015. Where's the social/planet-side module? So much for modular development making things faster.

Seems like each module will come out in their respective year.

2014 = DFM

2015 = Planet-side

2016 = Squadron 42

2017 = PU

2018 = Full Release

But good to know that they got their cash shop working early.
 
The only explanation I can give you as they consider CIG as Gods and think that they cannot do anything wrong, thus, everything they do is perfect. Despite numerous explanations of what "turreting" means, that the game is similar to FPS in its current state they still do not admit it and say that this is the way how it should be even after CIG stated that they are planning to change this.

The current rendition of Arena Commander is not really similar to a ground based FPS in my opinion. In a typical FPS you can change your movement direction on a dime which one cannot do in Arena Commander.

I do think a lot of people err in their comparisons as they try to simply things on a basis which ought not really be simplified.

The mechanics in AC are quite different to ED but neither game is really anything similar to a typical first person shooter.

I also do not really see anyone claiming that the control/movement dynamics in AC are perfect or that CIG can do nothing wrong. I think such allusions are generally made by people who have mentally set themselves up in some camp are feel the need to be critical of the perceptions they believe are in the other camp, which in itself is really just a mental construction.
 
The arena is ridiculous small, the flight /combat model is utterly boring. Why I have stopped playing the multiplayer:there is no true dogfighting- combat lasts some brief seconds- usually less than 10 seconds. You can't strafe while in coupled mode.
There is no sense of velocity (feels like you're a turret floating in the space, following an orange arrow - (radar is unnecessary ) and the missiles are overpowered.

40 millions in funding (!!) and what happens? "- the module is delayed 4 months for" fine tuning":"more polished than a typical 'alpha'," writes Roberts in the last December. :eek:
 
Hey guys!

I'm a fan myself of both Elite and Star Citizen but only been able to support SC so far due to the high cost of entering the beta stage of Elite, but will hopefully get into Elite once I have funds. I've been viewing the debate here for some time over the last week or so, and thought to myself I would chip in :).

I am mostly happy with the development of the flight model in Star Citizen. It's always interesting when a game tries something "new" and not repeating what all the other space games have done in the past. I do see some areas that can be troublesome, like the fast YAW movement, but hopefully this is something that will be fixed later down in the line (either by slowing down the thruster turn speeds, or making it not worthwhile being in "decoupled mode" for too long.). Other things that I hope and bet will be fixed down the line is the HOTAS issue, the sensitivity issue and the key bindings.

I saw they increased the AC multiplayer count to about 10K now, so hopefully I will be able to test it soon (Cit Number 75k). Looking forward to playing the game with you guys!

I have to wait a little longer as I am in the 300k as I only bought into Star Citizen last November.

I have been playing around with what has been released so far and, like you, find it interesting how they are trying something new. It will be an interesting journey to see how this model plans out.

At the moment I see a lot of depth in how one actually comes to terms with ship controls and as things are tweaked and more things are added I am hopeful that the level of depth will be something to marvel and enjoy.

It's been years since I have played games which had real depth in their movement mechanics and thus both ED and SC are a real breath of fresh air. Shootmania Storm came close but unfortunately there is no community to speak of, yet these two space sims might just fill the void. :)
 
So basically we'll finally see FPS boarding part of the DFM around the time the PU and Squadron 42 Alpha was supposed to arrive in late 2014/early 2015. Where's the social/planet-side module? So much for modular development making things faster.

Seems like each module will come out in their respective year.

2014 = DFM

2015 = Planet-side

2016 = Squadron 42

2017 = PU

2018 = Full Release

But good to know that they got their cash shop working early.

I'm a little bit disappointed as the next fan, but you got to be realistic here.

Typical AAA games take 3-5 years to develop. SC has been in development since crowd funding went successful late 2012, not really possible to get a game like this out in 2-3 years. Not to mention CIG had to grow from a 12 man basement studio in 2012 to what it is now, 130ish CIG personnel and 130ish contractors, it takes time to find the right people. So his time tables seem pretty reasonable.

If CIG had never been fully funded by the community, we would of had it released sometimes this year/early 2015 like Elite. But it would of basically been what Elite will be late this year, No FPS/no multi-crew ships, ability to board and etc. CIG is doing it all at once, FD through expansions.

CIG's scope for the game was quite small, all the features we are getting now would of been done at later dates as they get funding after the initial release though sales but given that they were fully funded, the game we have now is entirely different than what was pitched in 2012, to see that all you have to do is look at the hornet then and now.

Being fully funded has of course also changed the time tables, as now you are getting a complete game as opposed to a broken feature one. The finished product, i.e. full PU will be 6 months late from their initial schedule. SQ 42 is also late by 6 months, as it was supposed to be early 2015, but now its mid 2015 in episodes. So its really not too bad given that they had to ramp up their personnel during a whole years time and still growing all the while making a game.

Time will tell if that schedule is maintained though, it all depends on how much issues they get with Cryengine.

The current rendition of Arena Commander is not really similar to a ground based FPS in my opinion. In a typical FPS you can change your movement direction on a dime which one cannot do in Arena Commander.

I do think a lot of people err in their comparisons as they try to simply things on a basis which ought not really be simplified.

The mechanics in AC are quite different to ED but neither game is really anything similar to a typical first person shooter.

I also do not really see anyone claiming that the control/movement dynamics in AC are perfect or that CIG can do nothing wrong. I think such allusions are generally made by people who have mentally set themselves up in some camp are feel the need to be critical of the perceptions they believe are in the other camp, which in itself is really just a mental construction.


It has nothing to do with realistic physics or mechanics differences between ED and SC. The current rates or numbers CIG is using for you to make a Pitch/Roll/Yaw are too fast, its even unrealistic for a game trying to do realistic physics. CR has said in recent explanation of mechanics that the maneuvering thrusters are too over powered, they are currently 30-50% of the main thrusters power. Those will be balanced just like the Pitch/Roll/Yaw rates because they too are too powerful in their movements and over powered.
 
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Well I am not a friend of the realism debate and not totally in the topic but so far I see 8 Gs accelaration thrown around for this thrusters which is something todays airframes can withstand so I think thats not guaranteed.

Its basicly a necessity to allow a flight modell that relates aproximately plane like flight so I think in the end they have to stick with it while limiting access to those for lateral thrust 6dof(what will be best for gameplay).

Have you even read CR explanations of flight model?

...we’re also going to be playing with thruster power as currently the maneuvering thrusters are about a half to a third of the power of the main engines which is fairly overpowered...

For horizontal g-forces, the limiting factor is structural. Unfortunately, that limitation has not yet been implemented in our model. Once it is, there will be consequences for extreme unbanked turns. Instead of blacking out, you might rip off a thruster or a wing from the sheer magnitude of the horizontal Gs. And if enabled, G-safe mode will guarantee the structural integrity of your ship by limiting the amount of thrust in any maneuver.

Also current airframes can withstand high Gs in longitudal and vertical directions (accelerating/decelerating, pitch up) and not lateral (rudder).

The real problem is that current flight model is nor realistic nor fun due to high pitch/roll/yaw rates.
 
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So basically we'll finally see FPS boarding part of the DFM around the time the PU and Squadron 42 Alpha was supposed to arrive in late 2014/early 2015. Where's the social/planet-side module? So much for modular development making things faster.

Seems like each module will come out in their respective year.

2014 = DFM
2015 = Planet-side
2016 = Squadron 42
2017 = PU
2018 = Full Release
But good to know that they got their cash shop working early.

Seems to me that it is their habit not to meet their own deadlines even if these were set approximately. I remember CR announcing another DFM delay somewhere back in January-February that this is only DFM delay and as the other parts of the game are being developed by independent studios these parts won't be affected by DFM delay. SQ42 was first planned for August 2014, however now we won't have even AC v2.0 in August (only by the end of the year... if they won't delay it as usual). Then they were talking about January 2015 for SQ42 and now it is mid-2015. However, as CIG is constantly delaying everything I won't be surprised if SQ42 will be delayed even further.
 
Been looking at some new recent polls made on the RSI/CIG forums, and they all seem overwhelmingly in favour of the flight model currently being done for Arena Commander:

https://forums.robertsspaceindustri...ne-who-thinks-flight-model-is-dream-come-true

https://forums.robertsspaceindustri...hanged-and-was-the-message-properly-delivered

Any opinions about this? I'm currently also in favour of them as well but I was surprised it was so many others after seeing the "war" on the RSI/Arena Commander forums last week. Would have thought it would be more of a 70-30 split instead of what seems to be closer to 80-20/90-10

There are also a few other polls laying around (from the last week or so) giving the same impression. The only polls I found where it was closer to a tie result was when AC just got released, so it seems most people are happy on how the game is progressing on the AC front?

How annoyed is backer #4503?! ;)

Haha he must be really annoyed xD

Bains is Chris Roberts :D

lol
 
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Been looking at some new recent polls made on the RSI/CIG forums, and they all seem overwhelmingly in favour of the flight model currently being done for Arena Commander:

https://forums.robertsspaceindustri...ne-who-thinks-flight-model-is-dream-come-true

https://forums.robertsspaceindustri...hanged-and-was-the-message-properly-delivered

Any opinions about this? I'm currently also in favour of them as well but I was surprised it was so many others after seeing the "war" on the RSI/Arena Commander forums last week. Would have thought it would be more of a 60-40 or 70-30 split instead of what seems to be closer to 80-20/90-10

There are also a few other polls laying around (from the last week or so) giving the same impression. The only polls I found where it was closer to a tie result was when AC just got released, so it seems most people are happy on how the game is progressing on the AC front?

Haha he must be really annoyed xD

As I have already stated that - there are a lot of fanboys who think that everything released by CIG is perfect by definition. They cannot admit that it is imperfect or crappy even after CR himself said that it is crappy, unfinished and definitely not in the kind of state that was meant to be released.

The current version was released specifically for those fanboys not to disappoint them with yet another delay.

And it seems to me that a nasty surprise is waiting for them when they find out that they won't be able to use their skills mastered in v0.8 in v1.0 due to drastic changes in the flight model, flight controls and weapons.

If you look through the names on RSI forum - you will see that the same groups of people defend the current model, while the others criticize it.

But IMO that is not important now and should not be discussed. As we already have some explanations from CR our discussion should go that way. And according to this information the current flight model should not have existed in the first place and it will be changed ASAP, probably for v1.0 release.
 
But IMO that is not important now and should not be discussed. As we already have some explanations from CR our discussion should go that way. And according to this information the current flight model should not have existed in the first place and it will be changed ASAP, probably for v1.0 release.

yep, waste of time. but you must know that FPS genre is #1 selling and SC just cound't do without it.

i remember myself in 2012 when i first time heard about SC i was very excited, then i read more and more info and my brain started to ask questions to which i couldn't find answers and in the mid 2013 i transformed excitement into reality - they promised always and so much that i was 1 year ago sure they will never be able to pull anything even close to their promise.

but when i first launched AC i was still very disappointed because my logic was right all along and i was silly enough not to listen to it. so just let's wait and see what they will agglutinate. luckily for us we have or soon will have ED to play and can forget about SC.

i am happy that they delay, i don't want to see PU sooner than 2018. just don't. then i will get my 4k monitor and new pc and can play that exaggerated game and maybe even have fun ;)
 

psyron

Banned
My hopes are that increasing maximum speed and thus increasing acceleration, which would lead to higher Gs as well as reducing the power of maneuvering thrusters will solve this issue.

Impossible, becaus if when travelling very fast there is still no physical reason why you can't yaw/pitch on the spot and therefore create "FPS in space".

CIG have to realize that purely thinking in terms of making the game realistic will not solve that issue. They have to follow FD's approach in artificially reducing the speed of yawing/pitching to simulate WWII dogfight.
 
Impossible, becaus if when travelling very fast there is still no physical reason why you can't yaw/pitch on the spot and therefore create "FPS in space".

CIG have to realize that purely thinking in terms of making the game realistic will not solve that issue. They have to follow FD's approach in artificially reducing the speed of yawing/pitching to simulate WWII dogfight.

But how does this not apply if they reduce the power of the maneuvering thrusters? This would also decrease turning rate. Also as far as I know some of the ships have vectored main thrusters, which means that the turning rate should be higher with main thrusters providing power, i.e. turning rate in decoupled mode should be slower than in coupled.
 

psyron

Banned
...
There is no way a real spaceship would be able to probably rotate about its axis that fast unless it was something like the Star Fury from Babylon 5, because that thing had a ton of little thrusters.
...

I disagree on this. There is no reason why such a little ship as the Hornet couln't turn nearly immediately on the spot with its thrusters. We are talking about very strong thrusters many times stronger than today's one.

Again: The physics are not the problem. CIG did a good job in simulating them. The problem is that real physical behavior simply isn't fun to play in a space game. That's all. No need to look further.

FD's approach to limit the speed of yawing/pitching in Elite Dangerous isn't really physically plausible but it's simply more fun!
 

psyron

Banned
But how does this not apply if they reduce the power of the maneuvering thrusters? This would also decrease turning rate. Also as far as I know some of the ships have vectored main thrusters, which means that the turning rate should be higher with main thrusters providing power, i.e. turning rate in decoupled mode should be slower than in coupled.

When looking at ED you will see that while doing large curves in space your ship will always be tangentially to this curve. That means that the maneuvering thrusters have to be very strong to do this kind of maneuver. Otherwise the main thrusters would need to be directed to the point you want to fly instead.
Not sure if you undestand this explanation.

Simply said: The maneuvering thrusters in ED are too strong compared to the main thrusters. Otherwise the known flying curves we can observe wouldn't be possible -> It's all about simulating atmospheric fly.

Therefore to argue that you could simply diminish the power of the maneuvering thrusters only shows you didn't understand how ships fly in ED.

Still not sure if it's clear what i meant.

Edit:
There has been a good thread in this forum that explains why physically it's not plausible why there is limited speed of yawing/pitching in ED ...

But again: Accuret physics shouldn't be the main focus in dogfighting - should be about good gameplay and fun.
 
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When looking at ED you will see that while doing large curves in space your ship will always be tangentially to this curve. That means that the maneuvering thrusters have to be very strong to do this kind of maneuver. Otherwise the main thrusters would need to be directed to the point you want to fly instead.
Not sure if you undestand this explanation.

Simply said: The maneuvering thrusters in ED are too strong compared to the main thrusters. Otherwise the known flying curves we can observe wouldn't be possible -> It's all about simulating atmospheric fly.

Therefore to argue that you could simply diminish the power of the maneuvering thrusters only shows you didn't understand how ships fly in ED.

Still not sure if it's clear what i meant.

Edit:
There has been a good thread in this forum that explains why physically it's not plausible why there is limited speed of yawing/pitching in ED ...

But again: Accuret physics shouldn't be the main focus in dogfighting - should be about good gameplay and fun.

But why are you talking about reducing the power to maneuvering thrusters in ED now? I am talking about AC here not ED.

However, this does not change anything - if you reduce the power of maneuvering thrusters in ED, your ship will turn much slower.

The thing is that thrusters' power is set to such values that allow fun gameplay in ED, whereas thrusters' power in AC should be tweaked to allow fun gameplay.
 
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