The Star Citizen Thread v5

[frostypaw]

"We"? When you say "We" in name of whom are you talking about?

(I wanted to do the Bill Bailey BBC News intro clip, but apparently that's not online)

 

[jcrg99]

The vote was a resounding "YES make the game bigger, better, and take your time doing so". So CIG did

Your RESOUNDING YES was a poll, voted by the minority of the backers. The poll made by the RSI website could be voted by non-backers, meaning people that never gave a dime to the project, meaning fans with duplicate accounts voting in the option that they wanted to win, meaning even RSI staff members voting if they want to, for God sake.
Oh! And by the way... the poll was NEVER "make the game bigger, better AND take your time". It was, actually, make the game bigger, better AND deliver it FASTER. It was actually, beyond all the scam that was the poll, a deception on their own statements that lead people to answer yes... even that was just the minority of the backers voting anyway.

That was so convenient. Certainly RSI had no reasons to post-pone the release by adding more excuses, cof cof, features to make their dev cycle taking longer and sustaining a business model based on hype, dreams and hopes, because obviously they knew that wouldn't be able to deliver whatever that they presented to motivate more cash grabbing, saying whatever featuee that they had no idea if they ever could implement, since it became clear that better than sell a game was to sell ships. They would make the profit of building 10 sucessfull games making not even one. Better fail richer than losing money, of course.

And since then, RSI and marketing puppets have been using that poll, when answering to the public, press and authorities, to justify all the mess that this project became and put the guilty under the shoulders of its backers.

So, basically, CR is this guy who deceived investors on his entires career, and made sure to make something along his projects to put the guilty on them, instead himself.

In summary, evil publishers hold him... then... evil movie producers did not hold him... and now (in a near future when, from Bora Bora, he answering the questions about the flop that SC became in an exclusive Polygon interview)... evil backers did not hold him.

And here I am again answering the same thing, stating the same facts to a different and brand new RSI fan. Except that I highly doubt that is someone new. Just another account of Vikingr, HiBan, Gojammit, rioinsigina, darkwalker75... you know... more of the same. Pretending amd pretending and pretending and throwing away the same deceptive claims in the hope to convince another victims.

They indeed deserve a medal. Wasn't by the effort of these 10/20 whales online, CR would be totally forgot already, all forums about this subject would have died.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

So CIG was avoiding responsibility of delivering actual product?

Good to know.

 

[Zieman]

So CIG was avoiding responsibility of delivering actual product?

Good to know.

Hasn't that been obvious since the end of 2014? [haha]

 

[Osmanthus]

Lol, I have to say this thread is the most fun Ive had in a long time. The salt here can fill the pacific ocean. Its that entertaining. The best part is that the comments I read here prove CR was right for going crowd funding to make his game. You guys/girls are the publisher, the exact thing CIG was avoiding. Deadlines, Will is it done? We dont care how good it looks, we dont care how good it plays, when will it go to steam? when will the first expansion come out? Money well spent in my book.

Time to buy some new ships this weekend but I dont fancy the F1 looking ships, too many lines imo.

So you completely ignore his point and proceed with a self-satisfied conclusion. I know exactly how seriously to take you in future.

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Your RESOUNDING YES was a poll, voted by the minority of the backers. The poll made by the RSI website could be voted by non-backers, meaning people that never gave a dime to the project, meaning fans with duplicate accounts voting in the option that they wanted to win, meaning even RSI staff members voting if they want to, for God sake.
Oh! And by the way... the poll was NEVER "make the game bigger, better AND take your time". It was, actually, make the game bigger, better AND deliver it FASTER. It was actually, beyond all the scam that was the poll, a deception on their own statements that lead people to answer yes... even that was just the minority of the backers voting anyway.

That was so convenient. Certainly RSI had no reasons to post-pone the release by adding more excuses, cof cof, features to make their dev cycle taking longer and sustaining a business model based on hype, dreams and hopes, because obviously they knew that wouldn't be able to deliver whatever that they presented to motivate more cash grabbing, saying whatever featuee that they had no idea if they ever could implement, since it became clear that better than sell a game was to sell ships. They would make the profit of building 10 sucessfull games making not even one. Better fail richer than losing money, of course.

And since then, RSI and marketing puppets have been using that poll, when answering to the public, press and authorities, to justify all the mess that this project became and put the guilty under the shoulders of its backers.

So, basically, CR is this guy who deceived investors on his entires career, and made sure to make something along his projects to put the guilty on them, instead himself.

In summary, evil publishers hold him... then... evil movie producers did not hold him... and now (in a near future when, from Bora Bora, he answering the questions about the flop that SC became in an exclusive Polygon interview)... evil backers did not hold him.

And here I am again answering the same thing, stating the same facts to a different and brand new RSI fan. Except that I highly doubt that is someone new. Just another account of Vikingr, HiBan, Gojammit, rioinsigina, darkwalker75... you know... more of the same. Pretending amd pretending and pretending and throwing away the same deceptive claims in the hope to convince another victims.

They indeed deserve a medal. Wasn't by the effort of these 10/20 whales online, CR would be totally forgot already, all forums about this subject would have died.

Does anyone have a link to the poll itself?

 

[Ben Parry]

- insane example of male domination in video games with Star Citizen being some strange virtual world that attracts men by enabling them to create an hypermasculine identity (big machines, big guns, big tasks, funnily a lot of male dominated working class activities like delivering cargo, killing other men etc.) (not only are female avatars absent, but in in this 'living and breathing' universe there is not one stereotypical female activity offered; everything associated with femininity is completely absent; the only activity in this context was the stewardess job that obviously did not survive)

Interesting. Are there some traditionally feminine core roles that you think could be added?

(Indeed, I have never heard of any female gamers who spent insane amounts of money on this strange game)

This may simply be an end-of-the-bell-curve effect. People who spend thousands on a game are most likely a very small minority. Fewer female players to begin with would mean the curve wouldn't reach out as far.

 

[Gully Foyle]

Star Citizen will make history (at least in the gaming community) because:

- insane example of the short hype of the kickstarter-concept before the fall

- insane example of how calculated hyping in videogaming is a never ending thing even after so many cases of consumer deception (especially noteworthy if you look at the fanbase of Star Citizen, many white, male people from the US and Europe who probably experienced many of these cases)

- insane example of the post-fact age we entered with the popularization of social media where you can make stuff up constantly and there is a reality-bubble for every strange interest (from cat-fetishization to conspiracy theories to Star Citizen)

- insane example of male domination in video games with Star Citizen being some strange virtual world that attracts men by enabling them to create an hypermasculine identity (big machines, big guns, big tasks, funnily a lot of male dominated working class activities like delivering cargo, killing other men etc.) (not only are female avatars absent, but in in this 'living and breathing' universe there is not one stereotypical female activity offered; everything associated with femininity is completely absent; the only activity in this context was the stewardess job that obviously did not survive)

x btw: actually I think the masculinity in Star Citizen plays a big role in its financial success. If you regard the game as a playground for masculinity where men compete with other men over being successfull (only ways of success in the game are basically killing other guys and making more cash than other guys) and you regard the space ships as the most important status markers that are visible to other players then one could reason that the race for bigger ships is actually a competition over masculinity (which is connected to power). It might make sense that some men heavily invested in the game and its implicit masculine competition (they take it serious) are motivated to spend a lot for powerful space ships to be in a better position within the competition. (Indeed, I have never heard of any female gamers who spent insane amounts of money on this strange game)

Its an epeener game for the Duke Nukem set!

Tomb raider was in 3ed person for a reason. To sell.
My 3 girls love Mass Effect fortunately.

I know nothing about this flight model thing with SC, what is that?

 

[Prince Thrakkath]

So you completely ignore his point and proceed with a self-satisfied conclusion. I know exactly how seriously to take you in future.

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Does anyone have a link to the poll itself?

Here https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13266-Letter-From-The-Chairman-19-Million

And most relevant quote to the false narrative brigade 'Finally there is one very important element – the more funds we can raise in the pre-launch phase, the more we can invest in additional content (more ships, characters etc.) and perhaps more importantly we can apply greater number of resources to the various tasks to ensure we deliver the full functionality sooner rather than later.'

 

[Alpha November]

Star Citizen will make history (at least in the gaming community) because:

- insane example of the short hype of the kickstarter-concept before the fall

- insane example of how calculated hyping in videogaming is a never ending thing even after so many cases of consumer deception (especially noteworthy if you look at the fanbase of Star Citizen, many white, male people from the US and Europe who probably experienced many of these cases)

- insane example of the post-fact age we entered with the popularization of social media where you can make stuff up constantly and there is a reality-bubble for every strange interest (from cat-fetishization to conspiracy theories to Star Citizen)

- insane example of male domination in video games with Star Citizen being some strange virtual world that attracts men by enabling them to create an hypermasculine identity (big machines, big guns, big tasks, funnily a lot of male dominated working class activities like delivering cargo, killing other men etc.) (not only are female avatars absent, but in in this 'living and breathing' universe there is not one stereotypical female activity offered; everything associated with femininity is completely absent; the only activity in this context was the stewardess job that obviously did not survive)

x btw: actually I think the masculinity in Star Citizen plays a big role in its financial success. If you regard the game as a playground for masculinity where men compete with other men over being successfull (only ways of success in the game are basically killing other guys and making more cash than other guys) and you regard the space ships as the most important status markers that are visible to other players then one could reason that the race for bigger ships is actually a competition over masculinity (which is connected to power). It might make sense that some men heavily invested in the game and its implicit masculine competition (they take it serious) are motivated to spend a lot for powerful space ships to be in a better position within the competition. (Indeed, I have never heard of any female gamers who spent insane amounts of money on this strange game)

You're doing a satirical stab at the SJW snowflake triggered into looking for a safe-space....right?

 

[JOCKEY]

You're doing a satirical stab at the SJW snowflake triggered into looking for a safe-space....right?

Don't bother with Sandi (Britney).

 

[SlickReed]

And the fact that you so casually disregard things like "deadlines" and "accountability" as if they were totally irrelevant, makes me wonder about your self-made-claims that you are a project manager at all.

It really depends on what type of project you are working on. In my experience there are 2 , routine and prototype. In a routine projects you know all your variables, you can plan to the exact oz, weight, and cost of the consumables, man hours and capital you will need to finish to the task, and even in this type of project there will be unforeseen problems ( opportunities I like to call them for morale) that will arise but because this is a routine project you have accomplished many many times before these issues can be fixed with increase cost and man hours without allowing the time table to slip.

Prototype projects are a different story, there is a degree of preparation you can do going into the project with high hopes that any problems you encounter along the way wont push your time table by a problematic margin. But there will always be the unforeseen in this type of project. What if one of engineers was a bit off with his measurements for a mount for a new prototype antenna installation on the tail of an aircraft? what happens when a 4 hour satellite aligning procedure has software issues that cant be fixed until the following day because of back end issues? What happens when the requirements to get the prototype antenna to pass FAA certification increase the installation time table process causing a loss of a full work day? What happens when you find out the modification needed to finish the install will take addition FAA inspection and certification from the aircraft manufacture and that can push you a few more days?

Prototype imo is what CIG are doing in the majority of the tech going into Star Citizen. Maybe that's why I have more patience when I view the "delays" and "deadlines".

- - - Updated - - -

So you completely ignore his point and proceed with a self-satisfied conclusion. I know exactly how seriously to take you in future.

lol, I didnt know I had a responsibility to answer each and every point in previous post. I think you take yourself a little too serious, we are talking about video games. relax

 

[bitstorm]

It really depends on what type of project you are working on. In my experience there are 2 , routine and prototype. In a routine projects you know all your variables, you can plan to the exact oz, weight, and cost of the consumables, man hours and capital you will need to finish to the task, and even in this type of project there will be unforeseen problems ( opportunities I like to call them for morale) that will arise but because this is a routine project you have accomplished many many times before. These issues can be fixed with increase cost and man hours without allowing the time table to slip.

Prototype projects are a different story, there is a degree of preparation you can do going into the project with high hopes that any problems you encounter along the way wont push your time table by a problematic margin. But there will always be the unforeseen in this type of project. What if one of engineers was a bit off with his measurements for a mount for a new prototype antenna installation on the tail of an aircraft? what happens when a 4 hour satellite aligning procedure has software issues that cant be fixed until the following day because of back end issues? What happens when the requirements to get the prototype antenna to pass FAA certification increase the installation time table process causing a loss of a full work day? What happens when you find out the modification needed to finish the install will take addition FAA inspection and certification from the aircraft manufacture and that can push you a few more days?

Prototype imo is what CIG are doing in the majority of the tech going into Star Citizen. Maybe that's why I have more patience when I view the "delays" and "deadlines".

That seems rather generalised.

By your definition most games are going to be classed as "prototype". Do you think all the variables for ED or Space Engineers or whatever were known up front. Or do you think they were exploring what is possible, encountering unexpected issues, trying to find the best way through, and so forth during development.

 

[SlickReed]

That seems rather generalised.

By your definition most games are going to be classed as "prototype". Do you think all the variables for ED or Space Engineers or whatever were known up front?

I think that would be your definition not mine. Space Engine and Minecraft did alot of the example tech that exist in both games. Those games have similar mechanics but not on the scale of Star Citizen imo. How cargo is to be handled is the best example of this I can think of.

 

[Toumal]

- insane example of male domination in video games with Star Citizen being some strange virtual world that attracts men by enabling them to create an hypermasculine identity

Don't.

Please don't.

We're having the same debate about Titanfall 2 atm, with self-appointed feminists claiming that it lacks female characters - when the boss of the resistance is female, several major antagonists (and bad- ones I might add) are female, and it's about as equal a game you could get in terms of gender. And you can call Star Citizen many things, but it's not sexist. Also, who's to say that the big guns and ships are something that's strictly male? Isn't that, as well as the stereotype that delivering cargo and shooting stuff being a male activity, a pretty sexist statement?

Seriously, keep the gender debate out of this. They're having issues getting a game done, and you're complaining about a lack of female player models... when basic stuff like the aforementioned cargo ferrying, trading and exploration are still missing from the game.

 

[Viajero]

*Mod hat off

There was a vote cast on the RSI website asking backers do they want the game bigger and better, continuing the strecth goals. The vote was a resounding "YES make the game bigger, better, and take your time doing so". So CIG did

That is not what happened although I can understand why you'd think so.

The actual poll that I presume you are referring to had a very narrow and specific goal to decide what to do with the actual counter after reaching the updated 23 USD MM million (mission achieved) funding mark. I.e. to keep the counter in some form or to eliminate it.

The actual question was: "What should we do with the crowdfunding counter after we reach our goal?" , and not if the backers wanted a bigger and better game or similar made up construct.

But even in the hypothetical case where the question asked had been the one you think (maybe this one?) this topic has been discussed in the past, so I knew this could be handy:

The community didnt decide anything. CIG is 100% accountable for the direction and management of the development.

What CIG did was simply to put up a poll in their forums. Which is not a contractual bind nor a legal commitment by any party of any kind. Especially when forum goers in any game community are just but a tiny fraction of the total population, let alone a decision capable majority of any kind. CIG did that poll just so to maintain some public relations semblant of legitimacy but the fact is the only party here that is 100% responsible for the decision to add more scope and prolong development is only CIG.

A "poll" was neither required nor sufficient to justify any decision on enlarging scope and delay release. First simply CIG decided to increase scope and delay release, and then it updated the ToS to suit that plan.

CIG could have very well delivered all the promised content at the time in 2014 and then gradually build upon it more scope from there on. But it didnt. It was all 100% on CIG.

 

[Insignificant_The_Galaxy_Cat]

It really depends on what type of project you are working on. In my experience there are 2 , routine and prototype. In a routine projects you know all your variables, you can plan to the exact oz, weight, and cost of the consumables, man hours and capital you will need to finish to the task, and even in this type of project there will be unforeseen problems ( opportunities I like to call them for morale) that will arise but because this is a routine project you have accomplished many many times before these issues can be fixed with increase cost and man hours without allowing the time table to slip.

Prototype projects are a different story, there is a degree of preparation you can do going into the project with high hopes that any problems you encounter along the way wont push your time table by a problematic margin. But there will always be the unforeseen in this type of project. What if one of engineers was a bit off with his measurements for a mount for a new prototype antenna installation on the tail of an aircraft? what happens when a 4 hour satellite aligning procedure has software issues that cant be fixed until the following day because of back end issues? What happens when the requirements to get the prototype antenna to pass FAA certification increase the installation time table process causing a loss of a full work day? What happens when you find out the modification needed to finish the install will take addition FAA inspection and certification from the aircraft manufacture and that can push you a few more days?

Prototype imo is what CIG are doing in the majority of the tech going into Star Citizen. Maybe that's why I have more patience when I view the "delays" and "deadlines".

Your example would work better (and be more honest) if you actually equated the *actual* state of Star Citizen's "development" with what would happen in a similar scenario.

Taking that plane example for instance... To make a fair comparison, the plane itself would have been originally envisioned to be a heavy lift carrier, suitable for transporting freight and other cargo, but partway through the design process, the project lead, upon seeing a rival company's latest fighter jet variant in a recent air show, decides to go back to his engineers and designers and demands that this plane will need to be outfitted with the fastest, most powerful jet engines that money can buy. And that the original design of the wings need to be altered to make the plane look more "dangerous" and "militarized", with pylons capable of holding bombs and missiles.

This at the design stage btw, long before any FAA inspectors come along to see if the plane is air-worthy or not, and yet already, the original plan for the plane is out of the window and months of hard work would have to binned and re-started again to accommodate the demands of the project lead.... Does this sound even remotely familiar to you?

Your "example" is a classic red herring, designed to confuse and distract from what is actually being discussed.

Please, stop doing that.

 

[Britney]

Don't.

Please don't.

We're having the same debate about Titanfall 2 atm, with self-appointed feminists claiming that it lacks female characters - when the boss of the resistance is female, several major antagonists (and bad- ones I might add) are female, and it's about as equal a game you could get in terms of gender. And you can call Star Citizen many things, but it's not sexist. Also, who's to say that the big guns and ships are something that's strictly male? Isn't that, as well as the stereotype that delivering cargo and shooting stuff being a male activity, a pretty sexist statement?

Seriously, keep the gender debate out of this. They're having issues getting a game done, and you're complaining about a lack of female player models... when basic stuff like the aforementioned cargo ferrying, trading and exploration are still missing from the game.

I generally don't like to restrict the realms I am thinking about and the topics I want to discuss, you know (yk). I don't care about Titanfall 2 nor do I have any clue about the debate going on there, so let's focus on Star Citizen.

To really grasp the dynamic that seems to go on there would require me to write an article, unfortunately I don't have the time, yk. But yes, it is totally a stereotype of masculinity and of how men have to be to be accepted, worthy etc. The whole videogaming landscape is filled with these stereotypes, yk, there is not a lot of diversity regarding male and female roles you can play (in mainstream games and probably about 90% of all games involving human-like characters). That is pretty sad, but that is how it is and how it has been. So many guys dreaming to save the world with a breathtaking spaceship to be celebrated in the hangar by the crew afterwards (you fly into the hangar with a really cool maneuver), yk, and the hot chick is available after you proved to be the hero. It is so sad, because all those ideas are far from doable in real life, so you have to go back to your boring real life, or you spend as much time possible in the virtual world (btw. what happens with all the dudes in the Star Citizen universe, if they realize, that all this stuff is not possible in the PU? Traumatic experience?)

Yk, I would not want to play this game called Star Citizen nor would I like to live in that universe (if it were real). This stereotypical hypermasculine scifi-world is all but exciting, it is bland, cold, unfriedliy, dull and boring because it restricts itself to this masculine focus. You can draw many paralles to the real world.

 

[SlickReed]

Your "example" is a classic red herring, designed to confuse and distract from what is actually being discussed.

Please, stop doing that.

My example is how I perceived the Star Citizen project from my point of view based on my real world experience. I dont work at CIG and as far as I know you dont either. so neither of us know exactly how it is being managed but from your post you seem to claim ( in your own mind) to know exactly what is going thru CRs head, you dont, please stop doing that. You dont know any more then any other backer and that doesn't add anything to the discussion other then your opinion which is great to hear as long as its understood as such.

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*Mod hat off



That is not what happened although I can understand why you'd think so.

The poll I was referring to is the one I posted. It may not be the one you have in mind, thats logical being we are not of the same mind and dont agree on the subject, but making a corrective post like you are a mind reader doesn't help the discussion and is the waste of time we spend conversing I refereed to before. Again, I think its best we move on.

 

[Toumal]

I think that would be your definition not mine. Space Engine and Minecraft did alot of the example tech that exist in both games. Those games have similar mechanics but not on the scale of Star Citizen imo. How cargo is to be handled is the best example of this I can think of.

How *is* cargo handled? ATM, it is not being handled at all. And don't get me wrong, I like the ideas that have been floating around, with you being able to manipulate cargo inside the ship and all that - I for one really like that, as silly as it might be. The more stuff to do in a game, the better. But at the moment the basic systems just aren't there to even justify cargo, namely: Trading and a galaxy economy. There's also no galaxy at the moment. Star Citizen is currently where Elite was back in Beta, when we had a handful of systems to go to, with the notable addition of a basic FPS mode.

So, let them get those core gameplay elements done before you talk about how the "scope" of SC compares to other games.

Otherwise I'm making a game in my head right now, with a scope that's EVEN BIGGER than Star Citizen - And by your standards the plan alone is already worth throwing money at. So stop buying SC Ships, instead buy Toumal Wagons as they're even better. My game is even going to simulate the player's digestive tract with utmost fidelity.

Except that's all just words and what counts is whether I can deliver on such bold promises, which I can't.

 

[Insignificant_The_Galaxy_Cat]

My example is how I perceived the Star Citizen project from my point of view based on my real world experience. I dont work at CIG and as far as I know you dont either. so neither of us know exactly how it is being managed but from your post you seem to claim ( in your own mind) to know exactly what is going thru CRs head, you dont, please stop doing that. You dont know any more then any other backer and that doesn't add anything to the discussion other then your opinion which is great to hear as long as its understood as such.

More attempts to "puppet master" the folks here while crying into his flat beer as 2.6 continues to bug out on his computer.

And besides, I thought 2.6 was a lot of fun and just packed with things for you to do.... so why spend so many hours proclaiming such and defending the honour of Chris Roberts on this forums? Shouldn't the current state of the game sorta be dragging you away to enjoy that instead?

In fact, why don't you show us footage of you playing 2.6 hmm? I mean, that would go some way into dispelling the "myths" about CIG's shocking lack of progress this year (and the last 4-5 years to be honest).

Come on, chop chop. It shouldn't be too difficult for you to record your fun, fun FUN times in 2.6.