The Star Citizen Thread v5

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1500

1500
No one is dismissing a post because of capitalization, but it does make it harder to read and so people might start just not reading it anymore.

In other news,
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https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5meowg/when_will_the_issue_be_fixed_according_to/
 
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Sunleader

Sunleader
CmdrKull said:
@Sunleader, I'm afraid Stigbob is right. They had already started raising a decent amount of money, they hit their kickstarter goals quickly, and so the only reason for them to seek loans very early in the process would be if they'd already decided to make a different game than the one they had JUST kickstarted. That is dishonest at best, given that backers agreed to one thing and CIG was already planning a bait and switch. So let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say they didn't seek loans until the scope had expanded. By that point they'd taken ina lot of money but clearly we're spending it very fast on extravagance. They're not admitting to any financial woes, but many of us are skeptical because from the outside looking in, it's hard to understand what we see in any other context. That doesn't make us toxic (there are a few who I would say come across as toxic but in every case I think they are or were backers so disgruntled may be a better term)


Also guys come on... a little random capitalization doesn't invalidate an argument and shouldn't have such a dog-pile effect.
Click to expand...

I cant read him.
I got a long ignore list so I actually didnt notice that dog pile effect as you call it xD


And no.
Actually its not.
No offense but the Original SQ42 as they planned it. Was never a 500k Project either.
500k was a Community raised Funding.
On that you can assume 10-100k Company Assets and 1-2 Million of Sponsors or Loans.

This is completely normal.

I dislike using Elite Dangerous as the example as it tends to move the discussion away.
But its a good example for this.

Frontier Raised 1.7 Million from Crowd Funding.
But the actual Budget was well over 8 Million.
The Sales later are estimated to have Created 22 Million by the way (which is one reason why I have high hopes for Frontier to increase the Scale of the Game so this Giant World gets filled with more content ;) )



Alot of the Money SC got came trickling over time.
Its likely they stopped taking Loans Years ago. Because the Funding created sufficient Money alone.
But that does not change that they still got the earlier Loans Running.



Seriously guys.
This is pretty normal.
Or dont you think that by now tons of Experts would have all jumped at it that CIG has Loans despite so much funding ;)
The reason that you dont see tons of news Articles on CIGs Loans. (Unlike on pretty much all other issues which come into the news all nose long) is because this is in fact an entirely normal thing.


Star Citizen is a Unicum on Crowdfunding.
Nobody in Hell could Expect this to Skyrocket like that.
So them taking Loans in the early Funding phases. Is in one word *Normal*


Greetz
 

LeSabre

LeSabre
Sunleader said:
Seriously guys.
This is pretty normal.

Star Citizen is a Unicum on Crowdfunding.
Nobody in Hell could Expect this to Skyrocket like that.
So them taking Loans in the early Funding phases. Is in one word *Normal*
Click to expand...

I run a business, it's absolutely not normal to be seeking loans when you have taken in 5x your original capital needs unless you're throwing it away as fast as you are making it. CIG have never once been in a position to need a loan according to their funding tracker (Seriously? That much money after the kickstarter and they need a loan? RED FLAG!!) and by extension their bad attitude towards publishers (We don't need them!! etc lols).

It skyrocketted because they made a bunch of promises (features/content) to people and now people are getting a bit miffed that they still 5 years after the fact have not made good on them and continue to make more promises to make more money. Basically, CIG have not made good on their pitch and seem to have very little intention of doing so.

Unicum is a herbal liqueur, what does that have to do with SC?
 
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Tippis

Tippis
LeSabre said:
I run a business, it's absolutely not normal to be seeking loans when you have taken in 5x your original capital needs unless you're throwing it away as fast as you are making it.
Click to expand...
This is the key point, really: this is not about some extra funding during the early days; it's about securing loans and attracting investments well after they had reached their last over-funding stretch goal. That's what Ben is trying to excuse, and that is the timing of the statement. They were closing in on $100M at the time, if I remember correctly, and that's when they apparently needed to keep going to look better to lenders and creditors. Not back in 2012–13.

Unicum is a herbal liqueur, what does that have to do with SC?
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Ultimately, you should probably stay away from both because they're bad for your health? :D
 

Rolan

Rolan
Is not real news but...
Highlighting Community Content
[video=youtube;8duYDIRJbbo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8duYDIRJbbo[/video]

And some may like this from Test Squadron:
First contact with Thargoids! Elite Dangerous
[video=youtube;AyElxgMJubw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyElxgMJubw[/video]
 
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CmdrKull

C
Sunleader said:
No offense but the Original SQ42 as they planned it. Was never a 500k Project either.
500k was a Community raised Funding.
On that you can assume 10-100k Company Assets and 1-2 Million of Sponsors or Loans.


Alot of the Money SC got came trickling over time.
Its likely they stopped taking Loans Years ago. Because the Funding created sufficient Money alone.
Click to expand...

So for the first part, they asked for less than they needed and planned to make it up with loans, fine. But they planned on using the small amount to prove to investors that they were worth it, and instead blew their expectations out of the water.

At this point, taking on loans for the original project would not make sense, they raised what they claim was their goal through crowd+investors just on crowd funding alone and while the stroll to 140m has taken a couple years, they hit those initial goals quickly.

Source:Kotaku quotes http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/09/23/inside-the-troubled-development-of-star-citizen

So here is where it gets sketchy. They either took out the loans anyway because they decided to massively increase the scope BEFORE the ship sales (to prove loans could be repaid) which was a crappy thing to do to the backers who couple have been playing SQ42-like for a couple years at this point, or (scarier) they took them out later because they spent huge amounts of it.
 

LeSabre

LeSabre
Tippis said:
This is the key point, really: this is not about some extra funding during the early days; it's about securing loans and attracting investments well after they had reached their last over-funding stretch goal. That's what Ben is trying to excuse, and that is the timing of the statement. They were closing in on $100M at the time, if I remember correctly, and that's when they apparently needed to keep going to look better to lenders and creditors. Not back in 2012–13.
Click to expand...

Oh thats much worse :) They seem to be waving more red flags than the entirety of Italy after Ferrari do something cool with one of their cars.

Tippis said:
Ultimately, you should probably stay away from both because they're bad for your health? :D
Click to expand...

You're probably right :D
 

Sunleader

Sunleader
LeSabre said:
I run a business, it's absolutely not normal to be seeking loans when you have taken in 5x your original capital needs
Click to expand...

See and thats the Problem.
You guys are making that Decision knowing what happens.
If Cameron had known that the Brexit Referendum will end in Brexit. He would not have Promised it either :p
But they didnt.

Star Citizen had to get their Budget for the Project right when the project Started.
They did not know beforehand that the Funding would end up 2 times of what they imagined :p


Your putting future knowledge into an decision that was made in the Past.
But this doesnt work.
You cant use Knowledge from 2017 to make a Decision in 2014 ;)

As I said.
If they had known that they will have 140 Million of Funding. They would likely not have taken Loans.
But how were they supposed to know tthat? :)



See Mate.
Last Year i took a Loan of 10.000 Euro.
And now I got 14.000 on my Account.

Things didnt happen like I planned. So I ended up not only not needing the Loan. But I even got a Surplus.

But going back on the Contract would cost me an Cancellation Fee and atop of that 1% of tge Total Loan.
So for me its Cheaper to just put that Money on a Slow Investment were I get some Interest which cancels out some of the Interest.

- - - Updated - - -

CmdrKull said:
So for the first part, they asked for less than they needed and planned to make it up with loans, fine. But they planned on using the small amount to prove to investors that they were worth it, and instead blew their expectations out of the water.

At this point, taking on loans for the original project would not make sense, they raised what they claim was their goal through crowd+investors just on crowd funding alone and while the stroll to 140m has taken a couple years, they hit those initial goals quickly.

Source:Kotaku quotes http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/09/23/inside-the-troubled-development-of-star-citizen

So here is where it gets sketchy. They either took out the loans anyway because they decided to massively increase the scope BEFORE the ship sales (to prove loans could be repaid) which was a crappy thing to do to the backers who couple have been playing SQ42-like for a couple years at this point, or (scarier) they took them out later because they spent huge amounts of it.
Click to expand...


Nope.
Thats the thing.
They likely did only Take Several Millions loan right at the Start of the Project.
These got a Runtime of over a Decade.

So for later Stretch Goals they likely never took Loans anymore.
Its simply that the Old Loans are still around.
 

CmdrKull

C
@Sunleader The kotaku article quotes Chris Roberts talking about the whole funding thing, and by his own account they did not seek loans first. They wanted to prove it was a worthwhile investment, so they started a crowdfunding campaign, it was immediately successful enough to swamp their homespun solution, they switched to kickstarter and bobs your uncle, $2m+. In his own words "we no longer needed investors" and he praises how much better it is to not be beholden to someone that only cares about their ROI.

So why did they THEN take out loans?



Edit: I'm no expert in this mess. I took a crash course on Wikipedia and the previously linked Kotaku article, and now "Ohhh look at me, Mr Expert here!" [big grin]. But I think it's clear even from that little amount of research that all is not well, and we can really only argue about degrees. If they're still fully funded for the next 2 years, We'll get at least a great game, even a f a lot is left on the operating table. Only 1 year? An incomplete buggy mess. Less than a year? There will be no 3.0.
 
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Vasious

Vasious
Sunleader said:
See and thats the Problem.
You guys are making that Decision knowing what happens.
If Cameron had known that the Brexit Referendum will end in Brexit. He would not have Promised it either :p
But they didnt.

Star Citizen had to get their Budget for the Project right when the project Started.
They did not know beforehand that the Funding would end up 2 times of what they imagined :p


Your putting future knowledge into an decision that was made in the Past.
But this doesnt work.
You cant use Knowledge from 2017 to make a Decision in 2014 ;)

As I said.
If they had known that they will have 140 Million of Funding. They would likely not have taken Loans.
But how were they supposed to know tthat? :)



See Mate.
Last Year i took a Loan of 10.000 Euro.
And now I got 14.000 on my Account.

Things didnt happen like I planned. So I ended up not only not needing the Loan. But I even got a Surplus.

But going back on the Contract would cost me an Cancellation Fee and atop of that 1% of tge Total Loan.
So for me its Cheaper to just put that Money on a Slow Investment were I get some Interest which cancels out some of the Interest.
Click to expand...

That is reasonable but would not explain the comment the continued sales are to "look better to lenders and creditors"

If they have a good war chest and are just waiting for the contract to finish to clear the loans, then wouldn't need to "look better to lenders and creditors"

Showing income is what you do when you don't have the money to settle the loads and the creditors what to see your ability to service them.

Unless they are showing good income in order to secure loans in the future, but with 200% funding why would they need to do that?

Showing good income for a future IPO?
 

Tippis

Tippis
Sunleader said:
Nope.
Thats the thing.
They likely did only Take Several Millions loan right at the Start of the Project.
These got a Runtime of over a Decade.

So for later Stretch Goals they likely never took Loans anymore.
Its simply that the Old Loans are still around.
Click to expand...

You're directly contradicting official CIG statements here.
 

Rolan

Rolan
Surface of Daymar Sneak Peek
Sneak_peak.jpg
DID YOU KNOW? Crusader has three moons: Yela, Cellin and Daymar. This week's Sneak Peek features visual development concept work on Daymar, the largest of these satellites, for Star Citizen Alpha 3.0.
Click to expand...
 
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CmdrKull

C
@Rolan. Their terrain looks amazing. I've seen some pretty landscapes in Elite but this is gorgeous. We all hope to play that game in a year or two. We're just not so confident in this neighborhood of the internet.
 
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