The Star Citizen Thread v5

[Insignificant_The_Galaxy_Cat]

Derek made the comparison; I simply replied to it.

I find comparing the two to be rather hilarious.

So for a project that is now well on its way to getting $150 million dollars worth of cash money to help develop it (over five years and no end in sight), it (according to you) only does animation (and it darned well should, since the art department at CIG is what's needed to churn out all those ships/sizzle reel demos/snazzy adverts after all to lure in more suc-- I mean "customers" into buying in!), mechanics (what, like trading, mining, exploration?) and what was that, "shaders" better than LoD?



Hmm... I guess you're right.

It IS "hilarious".

Nice!

 

[Space Dandy]

Derek made the comparison; I simply replied to it.

I find comparing the two to be rather hilarious.

It is hilarious but it seems clear to me the people in this thread are clearly leaning in the dsmart side.

Everyone online is a superdev and think they can do better, I mean common 150mil OMG he shoulda got such an ambitious undertaking done in 3 years....right! That even though CR is a superbad leader yadada.

Here lets take a look at how much mmo cost.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_video_games_to_develop


Got to say I have seen some pretty toxic threads from both pro and con SC fans but this one is something special!

 

[Tippis]

It is hilarious but it seems clear to me the people in this thread are clearly leaning in the dsmart side.

He's making a cogent argument why CIG is being silly; his opposition offers up “no, you” as a counter-argument… so it's pretty much to be expected, don't you think?

Here lets take a look at how much mmo cost.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_video_games_to_develop

Pretty much always a whole lot less than it has cost CIG so far to produce what could generously be described as a tech demo?

 

[Komemiute]

Wow... Reduced to comparing Star Citizen with LoD now.

Good work Thorn!

- - - Updated - - -

Over on the SA forums, forum member "The_Titanic" wrote a very prescient, well thought out and carefully considered effort post that pretty much sums up the current predicament that CIG and those backing the "game" find themselves in.

Oh. WOw. That's so brutal.
Not to mention really logical. I'd love to see how the cult respond to that...

 

[Insignificant_The_Galaxy_Cat]

It is hilarious but it seems clear to me the people in this thread are clearly leaning in the dsmart side.

Everyone online is a superdev and think they can do better, I mean common 150mil OMG he shoulda got such an ambitious undertaking done in 3 years....right! That even though CR is a superbad leader yadada.

Here lets take a look at how much mmo cost.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_video_games_to_develop


Got to say I have seen some pretty toxic threads from both pro and con SC fans but this one is something special!

Umm... You *do* realize that the link you provide collates the *total* costs of development for those games, which includes the MARKETING.

Take the marketing costs out of the equation, and Star Citizen would currently be the 2nd most expensive game developed in HISTORY... and it's only getting more so as people continue to provide CIG more cash to make this "game".

<EDIT> And has been pointed out above, for that $142million+ and the current five years of development, CIG have only "achieved" the remarkable feat of making a buggy, barely functional overworld that you can traverse through, a barely functional and buggy space combat module which has on-going issues with it's flight model, crippling bugs and the actual combat mechanics themselves, a "hangar" module that exists in a seperate dimension to the PU and has no connection with the rest of the game whatsoever... oh and that's buggy as heck too.
And most recently, pushed out a half rumped, buggy, poorly optimised, poorly playtested, riddled with bugs FPS module that is *not* anywhere close to competing with the likes of COD or Battlefield in the same genre... all this in an engine *specifically* tailored for that type of game!

Oh, and lest I forget. All that money, and one of the centre pieces (at least in Roberts' eyes) of the whole project, Squadron 42, is *nowhere to be seen*, 2 years past when it should have been released!

So please, enough with the frankly ridiculous comparisons to game projects that have actually a) MADE A GAME and b) been finished (mostly) on time and on budget. It's disingenuous to the extreme to do so!


Being so dishonest when trying to defend your point of view on here, it just makes you look rather silly, old chap.

 

[Ian Skippy]

It is hilarious but it seems clear to me the people in this thread are clearly leaning in the dsmart side.

Everyone online is a superdev and think they can do better, I mean common 150mil OMG he shoulda got such an ambitious undertaking done in 3 years....right! That even though CR is a superbad leader yadada.

Here lets take a look at how much mmo cost.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_video_games_to_develop


Got to say I have seen some pretty toxic threads from both pro and con SC fans but this one is something special!

Ha, really? Basically it seems you are using generic arguments without looking at what specifically happened to this one project called Star Citizen.

"Everything is okay, stuff normally takes a long time."

Why dont you comment on the specific technical reasons why SC is a mess, and why the promises are factually impossible? Why dont you comment on their constant promises to release something in a few days/weeks/months, which then becomes years, or never. Why dont you comment on them selling new extra stuff while at the same time saying they wont deliver the old stuff they already sold us in 1.0? Why dont you comment on them breaking their own terms, and trying to cover it up by changing them? Why dont you comment on them flatout lying about their progress while claiming to be 'the most open development'?

As for that link: you do get that CIG burned through enough to be in the top10, are years over-schedule and have nothing to show? heck, remove the marketing element and its already the 2nd most expensive. If anything your link is an example of what is going wrong here.

So dont be shy, why not comment on the specifics of this project? Why stay with generic platitudes?

 

[Komemiute]

It is hilarious but it seems clear to me the people in this thread are clearly leaning in the dsmart side.

Everyone online is a superdev and think they can do better, I mean common 150mil OMG he shoulda got such an ambitious undertaking done in 3 years....right! That even though CR is a superbad leader yadada.

Here lets take a look at how much mmo cost.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_video_games_to_develop

Got to say I have seen some pretty toxic threads from both pro and con SC fans but this one is something special!

Well The_Titanic is actually on spot here, though.


This is a great statement! Especially the part about being better than a "professional".

I, like apparently many others here, work in real actual software development. It's this professional, real work experience, not pretend armchair "lol video game development" bull, that has lead myself and countless others to the same conclusion about CIG and Star Citizen.

I keep getting this feeling that the guys really really fighting hard to convince people that CIG is perfect and there are no problems are people that haven't worked much. Even basic jobs at the bare minimum you get to learn "good" vs "bad" leadership types and habits, and can take this knowledge and see what other people are doing.

As for actual developers... well, they haven't met a single milestone, they are years into the project with virtually nothing to show for it, no vertical slice, mismanagement of basic priorities on what order to work on the components, all we hear is "what we think we are going to do is...", and probably worst of all they've thrown away their schedules and and already blown past their release dates by very huge margins.

You can say "haha that Chris Roberts is just sooo bad with dates," until you're blue in the face.

He's also bad with keeping on track and managing expectations. "Haha such a kidder wants to do everything."

He also is bad with releasing quality products for what he does put out. "He only releases the best... uh... except for everything so far..."

He also can't release on time. "Oh but 3.0 is really happening because uh..."

He also never releases what he says will be released. "3.0 won't just be more poo poo bug fixes, it will totally be a game changer like patch uh... um... that one patch."

Good luck with thinking that everybody else is just stupid, as opposed to seeing reality for what it is. No amount of good intentions will save this game from being hugely beneath its promises. No amount of claiming the whole world "doesn't get it" will suddenly make CIG be a competent game studio. Just keep on ignoring professional opinions in favor of crazy and senseless "well they're dumb! Their goonies and... dumb!"

I'd love to see Star Citizen succeed like anybody else. You read off the huge laundry list of promises and it sounds too good to be true. And you know what? It is. It's never going to be 1/10 of its promises. Or are you still loving stupid enough to think you're going to be playing literal Command and Conquer from the bridge of your fully manned carrier while giving orders to hundreds of players in massive fleet battles while somebody is mixing you a Fuzzy Roberts and somebody else is mining in the cave of a sandworm while sneaking past tusken raiders, all in seamless twitch based MMO gameplay the likes of which never existed because the networked computers can't currently support it fast enough? And that's not even a tiny loving ounce of what's been promised.

It's not a case of "nobody tried to be this ambitious before so get out of the way". It's a case where somebody who doesn't understand reality is thinking they can reinvent how gaming is handled who doesn't even have a John Carmack on staff, much less a CEO who is aware of the past 15 years of advancements.

And no, the loving <12 player arena shooter is not groundwork for an MMO. That's not how an MMO is built at all. You don't just keep fighting to add another player slot in your poo poo server before it suddenly turns into a 100+ player simultaneous MMO game. Everything they are working on right now, outside of animation and models and concepts, is totally worthless to the end goal MMO game. Even basic stuff like shooting a weapon is going to be totally different between an MMO and a set player server based arena game.

Yes, that pretty much means Star Citizen hasn't even begun development yet. Sorry.

But what has begun development and may be nearly complete is the MVP which will not be an MMO. Your wasted money on ships will not make you the next Eve superhero. It will make you king of your ten player server instance. Have fun with that.

Good luck fighting for the impossible, friend!

Space_Dandy, are you ready to bet that it's not going to happen?

 

[Space Dandy]

He's making a cogent argument why CIG is being silly; his opposition offers up “no, you” as a counter-argument… so it's pretty much to be expected, don't you think?


Pretty much always a whole lot less than it has cost CIG so far to produce what could generously be described as a tech demo?

This is what I mean by superdev or armchair dev. You have hardly any facts, you don't have access to what is going on in the company but hey you guys just think really hard and look in your crystal balls and come up with ideas that right now its only a "tech demo".

Hey its okay though cause you all know and have access to CIG accounting and know for a fact they have no money and have spent it all and are just running on vapors...oh wait I forgot dsmart said so...it must be true then.

[wacko]

This thread may have started as something else but it has since devolved into lets all hold hands and bash and hate on SC. Can you really deny it?

 

[VidarSnipes]

It is hilarious but it seems clear to me the people in this thread are clearly leaning in the dsmart side.

Everyone online is a superdev and think they can do better, I mean common 150mil OMG he shoulda got such an ambitious undertaking done in 3 years....right! That even though CR is a superbad leader yadada.

Here lets take a look at how much mmo cost.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_video_games_to_develop


Got to say I have seen some pretty toxic threads from both pro and con SC fans but this one is something special!

Even if we ignore the year before Kickstarter when the game was still in development according to Roberts himself, SC is in its' sixth year of development. Six years, not three. And what we have is an incredibly buggy but graphically impressive arena game. Serious question - how long do you think will it take to develop SC to the point where at least half of the features are in? Five years? Ten? According to my back of the envelope calculations (CIG's UK subsidiary has burned through 21.75 million dollars in 2015 alone, and they represent roughly a half of their total workforce), they have less than fifty million left.

 

[Komemiute]

This is what I mean by superdev or armchair dev. You have hardly any facts, you don't have access to what is going on in the company but hey you guys just think really hard and look in your crystal balls and come up with ideas that right now its only a "tech demo".

Hey its okay though cuase you all know and have access to CIG accounting and know for a fact they have no money and have spent it all and are just running on vapors...oh wait I forgot dsmart said so...it must be true then.

[wacko]

This thread may have started as something else but it has since devolved into lets all hold hands and bash and hate on SC. Can you really deny it?

So, ok- when would be the release date for SC?

 

[Ian Skippy]

This is what I mean by superdev or armchair dev. You have hardly any facts, you don't have access to what is going on in the company but hey you guys just think really hard and look in your crystal balls and come up with ideas that right now its only a "tech demo".

Hey its okay though cause you all know and have access to CIG accounting and know for a fact they have no money and have spent it all and are just running on vapors...oh wait I forgot dsmart said so...it must be true then.

[wacko]

This thread may have started as something else but it has since devolved into lets all hold hands and bash and hate on SC. Can you really deny it?

Ehm, you do know that you can play it and see for yourself, right? Noone needs a crystal ball, you need to just look.at it.

 

[VidarSnipes]

This is what I mean by superdev or armchair dev. You have hardly any facts, you don't have access to what is going on in the company but hey you guys just think really hard and look in your crystal balls and come up with ideas that right now its only a "tech demo".

Hey its okay though cause you all know and have access to CIG accounting and know for a fact they have no money and have spent it all and are just running on vapors...oh wait I forgot dsmart said so...it must be true then.

We have the financials for 2014 and 2015 for CIG's biggest subsidiary. It's enough to make at least an order-of-magnitude estimate.

 

[milligna]

I love that they still post that two year old jpg comparing Star Citizen to the likes of "Diabolo III" without a hint of shame.

 

[Space Dandy]

So, ok- when would be the release date for SC?

Any why should I know that?

OH wait I haven't come in here kissing everyone's backside and haven't joined in the hand holding and group bashing so I must therefore be one of the SC zealots that think he is God.

Some of you think you are subtle but you're not really.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

Wow so only 1 mmo in history has ever cost more in development dollars (not factoring marketing as cig said that was all for free?)
That is some heavy numbers to live up to...

 

[VidarSnipes]

Any why should I know that?

OH wait I haven't come in here kissing everyone's backside and haven't joined in the hand holding and group bashing so I must therefore be one of the SC zealots that think he is God.

Some of you think you are subtle but you're not really.

This is a thread for discussing the game, not criticizing other people for doing it.

 

[Komemiute]

Any why should I know that?

OH wait I haven't come in here kissing everyone's backside and haven't joined in the hand holding and group bashing so I must therefore be one of the SC zealots that think he is God.

Some of you think you are subtle but you're not really.

NO- I honestly posed a question. From the beginning of the Alpha there was a tentative release date for Elite, for example. It was overshot by six months.
What is the tentative release date for SC?

 

[Ian Skippy]

Any why should I know that?

OH wait I haven't come in here kissing everyone's backside and haven't joined in the hand holding and group bashing so I must therefore be one of the SC zealots that think he is God.

Some of you think you are subtle but you're not really.

It seems an honest question to me. SC claims to be the most open development, yet we do not even know in which decade they plan to release, and what is supposed to be in there. Isnt that weird?

Btw, it would be fun if you could stop the personal attacks and strawman arguments.

 

[Stigbob]

This is what I mean by superdev or armchair dev. You have hardly any facts, you don't have access to what is going on in the company but hey you guys just think really hard and look in your crystal balls and come up with ideas that right now its only a "tech demo".

Hey its okay though cause you all know and have access to CIG accounting and know for a fact they have no money and have spent it all and are just running on vapors...oh wait I forgot dsmart said so...it must be true then.

[wacko]

This thread may have started as something else but it has since devolved into lets all hold hands and bash and hate on SC. Can you really deny it?

There are some legitimate concerns :

Spoiler

THE LIST

Initial release 2014 (didn't happen)
Ship sales (overpriced engineering debt)
Dates (all missed so far)
Flight model (man it's bad)
Likely completion decade (if at all)
Use of backer funds (the backers will never know)
Wild theory-crafting (everything not available to play)
Pay2win (it is)
Comparisons with ED (ED is the BDSSE)
NMS (going the same way)
Derek Smart (he was right)
Citcon 2016 (disastrous)
3.0 (not in 2016)
Refunds (get em while you can)
Scapegoating (Derek, Illphonic, leavers)
The new TOS (your money is ours we don't need to make a game)
Development start date (it was October 2011)
Star Marine (on again, off again, already in the game)
Illphonic (CiG gave them the wrong scale to work to)
RSI forum (cast out the unbelievers)
Freelancer (history repeating)
Underdog act (CiG/RSI are now a multinational multimillion dollar business)
Sandworms (Frank Herberts IP)
Coffee machines (Lol)
Blood oxygen levels (no space in the game)
Chris Roberts physics expert (he isn't)
Legalistic bluff called (the escapist)
Labelling backers (goon, special snowflakes, high maintenance, toxic dinks)
Accusations of corporate espionage (beer4thebeergod)
INN ( Run by a rep management company, less viewers than pgabz)
Star citizen subreddit (controversial tab concealed by default, brigading)
PG birds (scopecreep on the fly)
Handcrafted universe superior to PG (this may take some time)
Switching focus from handcrafting to PG (NMS/ED bandwagon)
PU neglected for SQ42 (vast majority of backers want PU)
CR thinks he's making a movie (repeatedly says "movie" when he means "game")
Mocap (hollywood obsession)
Build your own studio (repeatedly)
Expensive reshoots (repeatedly)
Renting the imaginarium (most expensive in the world)
"Original" artwork (other studios logo's still visible)
Ongoing scopecreep (cargocult)
Physical relocation to hollywood (they trade on the internet)
100 systems at launch (they'd need decades for this)
Tusken raiders (George lucas's IP)
Nipple jets (jetpacks not required for EVA)
Killer door control (no space in the game)
Refactoring (does not mean what you think it means)
Top Gun "inspired" stuff (Hornet ad and inverted finger)
Monthly patches (have never been monthly)
Tutorial broken ("fixed" by removing it completely)
Ships don't spawn correctly (very old bug)
Random ship explosion (very old bug)
Multicrew numbers exceed player maximum
FPS not impressive (in an FPS engine)
Animations are glitchy
No VR support (you can't just add it later)
The "patcher" is a complete download everytime
Chat UI unchanged (CR said it would be changed live)
Crash reporter not reporting information
Staff retention issues (leavers)
CR makes unrealistic demands (from the man himself)
Lack of internal coordination (seat numbers)
STOP SAYING 'VERSE (Joss Wheedon IP)
New ship direct copy from final fantasy (can't be bothered with CIG name)


SUB LIST THE CULT

Claim to be the voice of backers (actually internet loonies)
Greymarket (you can't say black market that sounds illegal)
Deterring customers (the prospect of playing a game with them)
Run a hate sub (r/dereksmart)
Hatesub moderators shared with greymarket (financial motive)
Interference with the ED forum (exposed gaming the rep system)
Brigading
Threats
Death threats
Abuse
Misinformation
Review bombing competition (LOD ED NMS COD:IW)
Journalist intimidation ("wah" clickbait)
Suppressing the truth (happily embrace positive lies)
Paranoia (they see Derek everywhere)
Encouraging purchases (whilst applying the above)
False claims about ED's development time
Yaw is not a dirty word
Living embodiment of the Streisand effect

If you disprove anything there I'll remove it, anyone with suggestions for additions feel free I haven't bothered to update it in months.

 

[LeSabre]

OH wait I haven't come in here kissing everyone's backside and haven't joined in the hand holding and group bashing

Wait a sec, I see you throwing the insults here, quoted them for you so you don't forget.

SC is a bust mate, it's not shown the level of progress that 6 years, 300-500 strong workforce and 140+ Million dollars should have produced. With that combination of those things a toothbrush manufacturer would have made more game than CIG/RSI have thus far. If you're looking for things that lack subtlity, then why do you not see CIG's marketting and the project in general for what it is? They certainly have no intention of delivering a fully fleshed out game anytime in the next five to ten years while they empty the dreamers wallets, their progress thus far is all you need to look at.

Get a refund commando