The Star Citizen Thread v5

[Asp Explorer]

You tell me why they shouldn't have any hand crafted areas beyond your fears it will reduce their work on PG?

CIG seem to think PG is a rude word and go to all sorts of great lengths to avoid mentioning it. The latest Approved Term is Algorithm. They slather it all over the place of PG despite meaning (in practical terms of game design) the exact same thing.

However, they are also stuck with Genuine Roberts Vision of Handcrafted-Is-Better - and hampered by his promises of such. That's why in so many of the dev videos we have this wonderfully convoluted chimera of handcrafted assets being lovingly hand-assembled by algorithm and then tweaked by hand again before the algorithms turn it into something unique and designed by human artists?!?!?!

It's just immensely convoluted, yet when they demonstrated the tools at work for building these environments, it was all handcrafted - their algorithms seemed mainly tuned to the variation of size, positioning and density of the asset folio to be applied by hand. They didn't even seem particularly diverse, as there were oodles of repetitions even within a relatively "small" build area. Granted, people will see patterns in pretty much anything, but the segment where they built the outpost for the Space Lobsters really seemed to demonstrate these limitations.

 

[Ian Phillips]

Last warning.

Talk about Star Citizen.

Nothing else.

Thank you for reading this and understanding.

 

[Tippis]

Why wouldn't it be all PG or better yet why shouldn't it?

Because it something I would enjoy and I know many other out there would enjoy that too, It doesn't have to take anything away from those that want PG content.

I suppose the fundamental question here is: by what measure is something “special” or “enjoyable”?

Is it because you go there once, see the spectacle once, and then never go back?
Is it because you see something you've never seen before?
Is it because you know that it is hand-made?

You tell me why they shouldn't have any hand crafted areas beyond your fears it will reduce their work on PG?

Fears? What the hell are you even talking about? [???]

They're a waste of time and effort because the only way they would offer some kind of added value is for that third reason: if some enjoy hand-craft for the sake of being hand-crafted rather than for any actual gameplay reason. And if you want that, then what will be on offer will not be of any greater quality anyway since it will forcibly be a half-measure — you're most likely better off going for a game where all effort has gone into delivering that kind of bespoke content.

 

[Space Dandy]

Sales of what?

Which other PC games you know of, average $35m a year?

Which metrics have you seen, that lead you to believe that SQ42 is going to sell those kind of numbers, beyond those who have already pre-paid andcare entitled to it?

Have you seen the sales figures for ED?

No I haven't just as I expect you haven't either. Tell me why would it be different than any other game out there that persist despite rocky beginnings?

 

[AJW]

No I haven't just as I expect you haven't either. Tell me why would it be different than any other game out there that persist despite rocky beginnings?

Most games 'out there' don't persist.

 

[dsmart]

Tell me are you still working on your game LoD

What has that got to do with my questions? Of course I am. I posted a dev update - including new screen shots - on Friday.

Stay on topic. So let me ask my questions again:

ME:

Where do you think the money to fund this to completion is going to come from if they stop ship sales. Especially when it now looks like a 2020 release - if they survive 2017?

YOU:

Same place as most other games that keep persisting. Further sales.

I mean if they can get squadron 42 out the door I am sure there plenty of space game fans will buy, speaking of those that haven't pledged/ bought or had a monetary interaction with CIG yet. Which I am sure there are plenty due to them being wary due to the drama surround SC.

ME:

Sales of what?

Which other PC games you know of, average $35m a year?

Which metrics have you seen, that lead you to believe that SQ42 is going to sell those kind of numbers, beyond those who have already pre-paid andcare entitled to it?

Have you seen the sales figures for ED?

 

[Space Dandy]

CIG seem to think PG is a rude word and go to all sorts of great lengths to avoid mentioning it. The latest Approved Term is Algorithm. They slather it all over the place of PG despite meaning (in practical terms of game design) the exact same thing.

However, they are also stuck with Genuine Roberts Vision of Handcrafted-Is-Better - and hampered by his promises of such. That's why in so many of the dev videos we have this wonderfully convoluted chimera of handcrafted assets being lovingly hand-assembled by algorithm and then tweaked by hand again before the algorithms turn it into something unique and designed by human artists?!?!?!

It's just immensely convoluted, yet when they demonstrated the tools at work for building these environments, it was all handcrafted - their algorithms seemed mainly tuned to the variation of size, positioning and density of the asset folio to be applied by hand. They didn't even seem particularly diverse, as there were oodles of repetitions even within a relatively "small" build area. Granted, people will see patterns in pretty much anything, but the segment where they built the outpost for the Space Lobsters really seemed to demonstrate these limitations.

Ah I see where some of the aggressive anti hand crafted areas attitude is coming from now. Frankly I don't think PG is a bad work anymore than hand crafted is, I think they both have their uses and place within SC if the CIG can find a way to balance this properly.

Now will they be able to do we can't really say right now I personally hope they do find a balance.

No one has ever claimed SC wasn't ambitious that's for sure.

 

[Dooguk]

Now I don't know anything about game development, but wouldn't all this handcrafted stuff mean loads more data to download? I'm talking gigabytes here.

 

[dsmart]

I'd like just remind ya'll that COD:IW, an entry in a wildly popular series with a blend of space and FPS combat, has sold less than 400k copies on Steam (370k according to this site:http://steamspy.com/app/292730). I don't see why SQ42 should be wildly more popular than that. Additional 18 million dollars isn't anything to sneer at, but CIG's UK studio has used up more money than that in a year, and they're about a half of their total workforce.

Yup, I mentioned that about 2-3 pages ago as well. Also, given the number of SC backers, it's safe to say that most of those who would have bought SQ42, already have it. Even those who bailed and got a refund, buying back in will be at $45 if they only want that one game.

I have been in this industry for over three decades, and I have seen companies and games come and go. As a result, I can safely say that if SQ42 ever comes out, it will basically be fulfilling the backer's pre-orders. CIG actually knows this; which is why they - less than a year ago - decided to not only separate it as its own product, but also announced that it won't be a single title, but rather a continued series.

As to the PG stuff, as someone who has developed both PG and non-PG games, all I can say is that it's all time wasting speculation: it's never going to happen. They can barely get one system complete - even in year 7 - let alone 100. And the game isn't even designed for PG. And unless and until they get planetary access working, even then, PG is going to be for terragen only; and nothing else. They neither have the tech, nor the talent, to do anything else.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Ah I see where some of the aggressive anti hand crafted areas attitude is coming from now.

What aggressive anti hand crafted areas attitude? CIG is chock full of artists - let them work. It's far, far easier for an artist to build a believable and unique spaceport than it is for an algorithm to mix one up out of pre-existing asset blocks. It's far, far quicker for an algorithm to build thousands upon thousands of unique (to some degree) spaceports than it is to have artists build them.

The game has needs for both. Handcraft your showpiece areas, PG the mundanes that a player could reasonably expect to be a standard installation type thing.

 

[Tippis]

Now I don't know anything about game development, but wouldn't all this handcrafted stuff mean loads more data to download? I'm talking gigabytes here.

Nah, you're talking terabytes.

A single tiny celestial body, say the size of the Moon, mapped out with a horrendously coarse 10×10m resolution (using 64b coordinates, of course), would require 2,826 GB in just the terrain height map alone…

 

[Dooguk]

Nah, you're talking terabytes.

A single tiny celestial body, say the size of the Moon, mapped out with a horrendously coarse 10×10m resolution (using 64b coordinates, of course), would require 2,826 GB in just the terrain height map alone…

More of a loading screen than a game then? [???]

 

[Space Dandy]

I suppose the fundamental question here is: by what measure is something “special” or “enjoyable”?

Is it because you go there once, see the spectacle once, and then never go back?
Is it because you see something you've never seen before?
Is it because you know that it is hand-made?


Fears? What the hell are you even talking about? [???]

They're a waste of time and effort because the only way they would offer some kind of added value is for that third reason: if some enjoy hand-craft for the sake of being hand-crafted rather than for any actual gameplay reason. And if you want that, then what will be on offer will not be of any greater quality anyway since it will forcibly be a half-measure — you're most likely better off going for a game where all effort has gone into delivering that kind of bespoke content.

Perhaps fear is too strong a word but you did express some worry about hand crafted area being a waste of time and do so again. I frankly disagree with your opinion that that all it is your opinion, not a fact like you seem to think.

No your strawman about why hand crafted areas and the 3 choices you give is just that a strawman. Like I said hand crafted areas can be "different" than the PG areas to a much greater degree than any kind of variation they can code into PG. That is a fact. Now will that happen I dunno.

Most games 'out there' don't persist.

I beg to differ but SC only here please!

Now I don't know anything about game development, but wouldn't all this handcrafted stuff mean loads more data to download? I'm talking gigabytes here.

Sure it would be a bigger download but GB... I dunno would depend on how many they put in. Don't really see it as being worse than PG though. I would add if your worried about GB usage well lots of new games will indeed take quite a few GB of space.

- - - Updated - - -

Nah, you're talking terabytes.

A single tiny celestial body, say the size of the Moon, mapped out with a horrendously coarse 10×10m resolution (using 64b coordinates, of course), would require 2,826 GB in just the terrain height map alone…

Ah but when I say hand crafted I generally mean a PG area they went in and then made some really interesting and cool changes to by hand. I don't expect a hand crafted area to have everything in it be done by hand.

More like a PG area and planets with some hand crafted alien civilizations or something or than nature.

I am also fairly certain that is what CIG mean aswell when they say hand crafted.

 

[Dooguk]

Perhaps fear is too strong a word but you did express some worry about hand crafted area being a waste of time and do so again. I frankly disagree with your opinion that that all it is your opinion, not a fact like you seem to think.

No your strawman about why hand crafted areas and the 3 choices you give is just that a strawman. Like I said hand crafted areas can be "different" than the PG areas to a much greater degree than any kind of variation they can code into PG. That is a fact. Now will that happen I dunno.



I beg to differ but SC only here please!



Sure it would be a bigger download but GB... I dunno would depend on how many they put in. Don't really see it as being worse than PG though. I would add if your worried about GB usage well lots of new games will indeed take quite a few GB of space.

I'm not talking about installing the game. I'm on about downloading this stuff on the fly. All these hand crafted cities and stations the backers dream of roaming around won't be sat on your hard drive.

 

[dsmart]

Looks like, for going off-topic, a mod deleted your LoD post, along with my response. So let's try this again.

Same place as most other games that keep persisting. Further sales.

I mean if they can get squadron 42 out the door I am sure there plenty of space game fans will buy, speaking of those that haven't pledged/ bought or had a monetary interaction with CIG yet. Which I am sure there are plenty due to them being wary due to the drama surround SC.

Sales of what?

Which other PC games you know of, average $35m a year?

Which metrics have you seen, that lead you to believe that SQ42 is going to sell those kind of numbers, beyond those who have already pre-paid and are entitled to it?

Have you seen the sales figures for ED?

 

[Space Dandy]

I'm not talking about installing the game. I'm on about downloading this stuff on the fly. All these hand crafted cities and stations the backers dream of roaming around won't be sat on your hard drive.

See I don't think it would work like that if they have some few area with special tweaks on them why would it have to all be downloaded on the fly?

 

[AlPilg]

Indeed I don't see a "tech demo" but a game that isn't finished yet and is still missing quite few key parts but yeah you guys never ever exagerate...lol


Lol you guy get scraps of info here and there and think you can make accurate "estimates"...estimates are just wild guesses when you don't have a clue.



Here's some samples of bashing. I mean I don't agree that its all doom and gloom yet so ofc I must be a CIG shill...lol







Really there you have it you guys just want to bash on SC. This is a thread for talking about SC my behind, it's a thread for people to gather and bash it, be snarky and express hate and if you don't come in this thread with this mindset you're setting yourself up for a fail.



Really CIG has done lots of questionable stuff and I have said so in their forums and at mmorpg forums and they really need to get their manure together.

That said I just can't swallow all the hate, bitterness and general all round sith lordiness I see in this thread.

This bitterness thing doesn't wash, are we so broke we can't buy this brilliant game that we're so desperate to play? No, fact is, it's incompetent nonsense from people who should have learnt from their past mistakes. Fudge this game and fudge Mr idiotic.

 

[Tippis]

Perhaps fear is too strong a word but you did express some worry about hand crafted area being a waste of time and do so again.

It's not a worry, nor is it an opinion — it's an observation. Hand-crafting always gets old — it's why PG exists — and opportunity cost is always a factor.

No your strawman about why hand crafted areas and the 3 choices you give is just that a strawman.

It's not a strawman; it's a question — one I would like to you answer.

To be a strawman, I would have to make up an argument, claim that it is yours, and then defeat that argument. None of those three things happened here because all it was was exactly what I wrote: a question.

Like I said hand crafted areas can be "different" than the PG areas to a much greater degree than any kind of variation they can code into PG. That is a fact.

No, that is not a fact. Everything is new and different the first time you experience it — if all you want is difference, then PG can offer that, possibly even more so than hand-crafting can if you allow it to be really bonkers. So at best, with that in mind, what you're saying here basically boils down reason #3: you like hand-crafting simply because it's not PG, not because of any actual qualitative difference in the content it provides.

 

[Dooguk]

See I don't think it would work like that if they have some few area with special tweaks on them why would it have to all be downloaded on the fly?

Special tweaks? Maybe they can sprinkle them with Handwavium.

 

[lysan]

CIG seem to think PG is a rude word and go to all sorts of great lengths to avoid mentioning it. The latest Approved Term is Algorithm. They slather it all over the place of PG despite meaning (in practical terms of game design) the exact same thing.

However, they are also stuck with Genuine Roberts Vision of Handcrafted-Is-Better - and hampered by his promises of such. That's why in so many of the dev videos we have this wonderfully convoluted chimera of handcrafted assets being lovingly hand-assembled by algorithm and then tweaked by hand again before the algorithms turn it into something unique and designed by human artists?!?!?!

It's just immensely convoluted, yet when they demonstrated the tools at work for building these environments, it was all handcrafted - their algorithms seemed mainly tuned to the variation of size, positioning and density of the asset folio to be applied by hand. They didn't even seem particularly diverse, as there were oodles of repetitions even within a relatively "small" build area. Granted, people will see patterns in pretty much anything, but the segment where they built the outpost for the Space Lobsters really seemed to demonstrate these limitations.

Regarding CIG and what they can do and what they say, we have come full circle many times, actually we are chasing the tail.
CIG don't know much about PG they need to gain experience first, that being said, we know that they proclaimed to have ProGen tech no one has ever seen before, and that it will blow everything known to mankind away. OFC its all and hot air like the rest of the proclamations coming out of the CIG propaganda tower.