The Star Citizen Thread v5

Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Thorn, we're still anxiously waiting on your explanation how this magic new system with 1000 people per instance will work. After all, it will work, right? And thats not just faith-based, right? You have actual, solid and well thought-out reasons, right? Looking forward to it when you're done jumping around the issue. :)
 
I've already told you why I think you're wrong; I don't believe you have the technical expertise to do a forensic analysis on code you've never seen.

What exactly would be the "technical expertise" to do a forensic analysis on code someone hasn't seen?

Are we talking Yuri "spoon bender" Geller type expertise with remote viewing or something?

I can't speak for Derek but I'm pretty sure he's never claimed to be the man who stares at goats...
 
Thorn, we're still anxiously waiting on your explanation how this magic new system with 1000 people per instance will work. After all, it will work, right? And thats not just faith-based, right? You have actual, solid and well thought-out reasons, right? Looking forward to it when you're done jumping around the issue. :)

As I asked him for his explanation and he has not replied. He is either...

A. Ignoring the question.
or
B. Has me blocked.

I am happy either way. [smile]

Edit. He can't block what I'm thinking though. ;)
 
Last edited:
Yes, let's get back on topic. You posted how YOU did it, which also shows how you have NOT done it. You might as well explain how you've made a Youtube video on your iPhone, and use that example to explain why no one can shoot a feature film with an IMAX camera.



I've already told you why I think you're wrong; I don't believe you have the technical expertise to do a forensic analysis on code you've never seen.

Please point to the examples of games currently in existance that allow for 1000+ players per instance.

Notice how the ones that do exist are not very graphically heavy, or even technically demanding? Yeah, there's a reason for that. CIG will not be able to give 1000+ players per instance, it's a technical hurdle that would require significant investment into server architecture to deliver (multiple millions per month) which is way too rich for Crobblers tastebuds. And thats before the consumer even has to worry about a new pc with 10x cpu's and 10x gpx cards to render a 1000+ player cryengine scene. (Ha and a fibre optic cable thicker than an elephants leg)

Decades worth of software knowledge easily available to all on the internet, countless times CIG has said one thing and either failed outright or back peddled their way out of delivering anything, and people still just assume "yeah but they said they will do it so it'll definitely happen". The CIG motto may as well be : "Abandon common sense, embrace pure, blind, unthinking faith!!" or "Derp, my elbows taste like purple sauce!!", whichever one works best really.
 
Last edited:
Thanks to a customer support response to a backer that had asked for a refund not too long ago, we managed to establish an estimation of concurrency levels in the SC PU.

300,000 backers had been online since PU launch and until that note was published last June (probably its busiest period anyways due to the novelty), and they had accumulated 1.5 million hours all together. If you make the maths you will see that the usual concurrency numbers for Star Citizen must have been of around ~300 players give or take for that busiest of periods.

Obviously one has to take into consideration that Accounts aren't equal to Players, which also isn't equal to Currently Playing. So I'll accept the 300K as a baseline to theorize with - no problem using that number.

The fact that you or CIG *think* that at some point in the future, eventually, maybe, perhaps, possibly, those numbers will improve is just, at this time and as of yet, wishful thinking.

In my case, it's certainly "wishful thinking". In CIG's case, one could call it that... but because they're actually working on the code with that as a goal, it's also more than a wish. It's a technical goal.

Let's consider Peter Jackson's LOTR. There were certainly people saying "Those large-scale battles Peter wants are impossible. No existing software of FX can accomplish that task. You'll have to use hundreds of extras and some compositing."

So Peter hired his own coders, and the result was Massive. Now it's used all the time in film and TV.

It's a similar concept, in my opinion, to hearing what is or isn't possible with SC's future networking. CIG is hoping for 1000. They may not hit that target, of course. But I'm not playing "armchair developer" and saying that code I've never even seen will absolutely fail, no question.

The fact that CIG´s netcode can not even cope with that is telling. At least LoD works.

True, LoD works as designed (I'm guessing, but will concede it as true.) But CIG's netcode isn't supposed to work at those large, planned scales at this point. It's sort of like when people say "3.0 doesn't exist. Trust me."

Of course 3.0 doesn't exist. It's in development. A cake doesn't "exist" when it's still batter in a pan.

- - - Updated - - -

What exactly would be the "technical expertise" to do a forensic analysis on code someone hasn't seen?

That's my point, Ian. One can't. So one shouldn't pretend they are.
 
Last edited:
Chris Roberts isn't 1/10th the talent Peter Jackson is and that LA office is hardly WETA. The man can't even make a film as fun as Meet the Feebles much less LOTR. Don't cite authentic talents when trying to prop up a hasbeen's poor project management.

LOTR had a plan and a man who could execute plans and improvise well when problems came up. He had a team who knew how to work together and stay till the end without senior dept heads quitting every quarter. CR couldn't refactor his way out one of those black turtlenecks he favors without several assistants.

Does anyone want to pretend CR is good at improvising solutions to unexpected problems? He doesn't forge ahead and turn on a dime, be burbles delays whines and blames anybody but himself. No humility whatsoever. Peter Jackson knows to get a project like that done, you gotta eat a little pavement occasionally. You mess up, you admit it, you change your plans and accept the blame. CR likes the ego gratifying part of being a director but NEVER understood how to direct, how to deal with the crew, how to build up people instead of tearing them down because they don't understand the nuances of his ill-defined musings.

He likes having the chair with his name on it but doesn't know when the hell to sit in it and let people who know what they are doing get to work.

He's good at burning piles of money and not delivering for half a decade, ya gotta give him that. He got you there. You got to give him his due.

hqdefault.jpg
 
Last edited:
It's a similar concept, in my opinion, to hearing what is or isn't possible with SC's future networking. CIG is hoping for 1000. They may not hit that target, of course. But I'm not playing "armchair developer" and saying that code I've never even seen will absolutely fail, no question.

This is the comprehension problem - there are solid mathematical reasons why these things can't be done that go above and beyond code. It sounds from what you write as if you imagine most games developers have no ambition and don't even try to get high numbers in an instance but you're wrong. They all do - everyone would be very happy if they could manage it so there's probably a reason why it's not been achieved.

People may want to discuss that and even use examples. Decrying all that because "magic" isn't an argument.
 
Chris Roberts isn't 1/10th the talent Peter Jackson is and that LA office is hardly WETA. The man can't even make a film as fun as Meet the Feebles much less LOTR. Don't cite authentic talents when trying to prop up a hasbeen's poor project management.

LOTR had a plan and a man who could execute plans and improvise well when problems came up. He had a team who knew how to work together and stay till the end without senior dept heads quitting every quarter. CR couldn't refactor his way out one of those black turtlenecks he favors without several assistants. Does anyone want to pretend CR is good at improvising solutions to unexpected problems? He's good at burning piles of money and not delivering for half a decade, ya gotta give him that. He got you there. You got to give him his due.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tr5EvZDjUFY/hqdefault.jpg

Never forget :

*After failing to boot up a game*
"Dennis? Is uh, is Dennis here? I think the computer's like, the computer's borked"
*Then proceeds to fail to connect a 'plug and play' usb flight stick.*

A true genius of our time.

:D
 
Last edited:
Of course 3.0 doesn't exist. It's in development. A cake doesn't "exist" when it's still batter in a pan.

Well, technically last we heard it's in planning, which is quite a bit different than being in development, where you might expect to see some cohesion. In development means you can look at it and say "clearly making a cake" even when it just as clearly isn't ready yet. In planning there is no garuntee they aren't making mud pies, we just don't know. They're showing us pictures of cake that they aren't yet making, saying crazy things like "cake is almost ready" when they dont have basic ingedients.

Anyone here that wants to play SC is frustrated and upset by his. Some others have found it to be a source of mild entertainment. Only dreamers can defend it as of today, and the defense involves a lot of imagination.

CIG needs to get their butts in gear.
 
If I had two wishes for this thread, one would be they release the flipping game so that this can wither and go to the old threads home quietly and we can all find a different waste of time

[video=youtube;FKzd2048i-Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKzd2048i-Q&list=PL72E6BCE31D513DAC&index=16[/video]

The second would be that people leave Voldsmart to fight his own battles. He is old enough and ugly enough not to need people to hold his coat.

That Mining ship sure does look shiny. I wonder if SC will have wear and tear... somehow a Mining ship that looks like it has just been to a car detailer looks a little out of place? I'm sure shiny ship syndrome happens in other games too. Maybe SC could take a leap and do something better, more realistic maybe?
 
Last edited:
Im curious to know, how come at RSI forums Elite thread, people are actually discussing about playing Elite and its features in good manners, but this thread is nothing but bashing of CIG and SC?
Doesnt paint very good picture of Elite community, does it?

Just asking.. :rolleyes:

You're not really asking anything, but I can explain the difference to you if you want.

In the SC forum the dual backers there are talking about a live game which is expanding and getting updates. On this forum, us dual backers are looking at the slow and bewildering progress of a game that was supposed to have been released long ago.

Can you now see why the tone of the discussion is very different? The situations are far from identical.
 

dsmart

Banned
Hehe, I am generally aware of the concepts* and to be honest I'd rather that the term "Cloud" was replaced by "Someone Else's Computer" as it sounds a hell of a lot less magical.

The whole 1000+ simultaneous players thing makes no sense unless you can do some very clever peer-to-peer + view distance stuff as network traffic increases exponentially otherwise. Even if they paid for the computing horsepower, connectivity is always the bottleneck. I suppose that you could do other clever things with shuttling people between instances dependent on criteria like location/neighbouring entities/etc but that would be a nightmare to handle without lagging. All of this at a high-tick rate? yeah.. no.

*I received my BSc in Computer Science before the WWW existed (1994!) but ended up going down the corporate IT route so am not really involved in cutting edge stuff. I can still do the maths though!

It remains the Holy Grail for online connectivity in terms of twitch games. There is a reason that companies with vast resources, still rely on instanced game sessions - even MMOs.

The Planetside games which are twitch based and tout the largest number of clients in a session, still lagged - badly - when > 32 clients were in the general vicinity. And when they went for the GBWR record for the most clients connected to a session, it was unplayable. The record was about connectivity - not playability.

Eve Online - which isn't twitch based - literally invented a mass of software to host their game. And even so, when it's heavily populated in an area, they use time-dilated updates to keep every one in sync.

The only time that "1000 client instances" makes sense, is if they somehow - automagically solve the n+1 connectivity problem. Considering the clown shoes involved in the project, that's highly unlikely. Again, we're in year 6 and they haven't progressed beyond standard networking in the original CryEngine. So there's that.

The thing with cloud servers like AWS & GCE is that you can do all kinds of nifty things. But they were never designed for the demands of twitch based games. That's why very few use them. Heck, even some of my friends working on games for Microsoft with Azure, are finding this out. See the upcoming Crackdown game.

Basically, you can't have "1000 client instances". What you can have are "1000 client sessions" via inter-instance communications. This - which is basically rocket science - means something like this:

i1(n+250) // instance + client count
i2(n+250)
i3(n+250)
i4(n+250)

Those are 4 are Amazon EC2 Dedicated Hosts running in Intel Xeon hardware server clusters. Also see the AMI requirement and what an EC2 is. You can also use the free tier to test your app before jumping off a cliff and actually doing it.

This is the part where panic mode sets in. See those instance types, bandwidth caps etc? Yeah.

Without getting technical, with my above example you have a situation whereby they have to create 4 (or more) instances (copies) of the game.

i1 goes live, then gradually fills up with clients. As it gets filled up, because AWS charges for BOTH in/out bandwidth, the more clients, the higher the costs. It's a lot scarier than that.

i2, i3, i4, all go live - same as above.

Nobody in i1 is going to see or interact with anyone in the other instances. Even if you imagine this being a walled off garden whereby i1-client1 is parked on the edge, he will never see i2-client1. They can't see, shoot, or interact with each other. For all intent and purposes they know nothing about each other.

In order to have "1000 client" instances, you need to have 1000 clients in an instance. Which would mean 1000 clients being able to connect and interact with each other in the above. It's IMPOSSIBLE. Period. End of story. And there isn't a single Xeon hardware server on AWS which would somehow automagically spawn an instance configured for 1000 clients in a twitch based game.

If you "stitch" the instances using clever tricks, such that you have 4 instances each with 250 clients, it's no longer "1000 client" instance, but rather a "1000 client" cluster. And in order to give the illusion of 1000 clients in the world, you have to somehow come up with inter- and intra- instance communications such that, using the walled garden example above, all clients within range can somehow see, chat, engage each other.

Well guess what? Now you're in alchemy territory. You now have an instance whereby i1-client1 fires a missile at i2-client1 and that missile travels through the i1 instance, reaches an area where it is destroyed and appears (re-created) at in i2 at the location of i2-client1 <---- that fool has probably already buggered off, died etc by the time the server code figures out that i1 just fired off a missile at a target in a remote instance which may or may no longer exist.

It gets better. That missile, along with all the calculations for i1-client1 and i2-client1, need to be calculated (God help you if you aren't using server-side arbitration - which by SC isn't using) on-the-fly and in real-time. All the time. Think of the bandwidth.

Now multiply the horrendous notion above to n+1 for a set of clients.

Then plan to be on vacation when the AWS bill shows up for that month.

Here's the hilarious part. Instead of planning to build this from the start, much like Frontier did, they decided to just wing it. And now, six years later, they're still stuck with the basic CryEngine networking layer.

What is even more hilarious is that - right from the start - Chris (it's in the Kickstarter, interviews etc) claimed he wasn't making an MMO. Then, out of the Blue, he was. Suspiciously that was after it dawned on them that they would make more money by selling the entire Verse as an MMO through the sale of assets. They would never - ever - have been able to raise this much money for a single player or session based game. But the fact is, assuming they deliver (which imo they won't) both of these games, the multiplayer is going to remain as it is now. A session based instanced game which will need a witch doctor to get it to handle more than 16 (let alone 1000) clients in combat.

Further reading to see how experts who thought long and hard about this before designing it; but still ended up with a less-than stellar solution to a massive problem:

VERY basic guide for ED networking

AWS re:Invent 2015 | (GAM403) From 0 to 60 Million Player Hours in 400B Star Systems

This is why most of who do this stuff for a living, and with decades under our belt, simply can't fathom how they could possibly be making these FALSE statements. Especially when you consider that when this whole thing collapses, and the lawsuits start flying, these are the sort of statements that are going to end up coming back to haunt them.

ps: When it comes to Star Citizen, the claims of "1000 player instances" is pure fiction and rubbish.
 
Last edited:
Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom