The Star Citizen Thread v5

[Tippis]

@jmg + Tippis: I really don´t see your problem.

Quite simple.

The problem is that “it's a donation/pledge/pot roast” argument is one of the most common false claims used by the faithful to try to dismiss or denounce people who are rightfully fed up with the glacial pace of and lies surrounding CIG's development, and who are looking to get the refunds CIG is legally obligated to give them.

You don't have to look long in any of the refund threads on RSI or reddit (should they actually survive the truthspeak purges that happen there) to come across some… ehrm… less gifted backer claiming that getting a refund is like stealing from CIG or from other backers or, most disgustingly and gallingly, like demanding your money back from the Cancer Foundation or UNICEF or some similar charity. Never mind the nonsense that you're somehow not owed that money because “it's a donation/pledge, not a purchase,” which, wrong as it is, at least isn't a pathetic attempt to shame people into not exercising their rights.

So on top of perpetuating some outright falsehood about what your rights are in relation to the whole SC project, the whole argument is very closely associated to some pretty outrageous wrong-headedness. As such, it needs to be stamped out anywhere and any time it shows up so it doesn't keep spreading to those who maybe aren't quite as obscene, but who simply don't know any better.

 

[jmg]

So on top of perpetuating some outright falsehood about what your rights are in relation to the whole SC project, the whole argument is very closely associated to some pretty outrageous wrong-headedness. As such, it needs to be stamped out anywhere and any time it shows up.

cmon man.. just let it go. The points have all been made. Some people will look at giving money as a donation, others as a sale... can't we just leave it at that? We're all reasonable people in here. I hardly think anything we're saying is "outrageous." people have can have different opinions about things, even if we're looking at the very same facts. Let's live and let live, and continue talking about star citizen-- a game we all enjoy playing (which, at least ostensibly, is the point of this forum)

 

[Tippis]

cmon man.. just let it go.

No. And I'd ask you to try to stop trying to direct the discussion away from a very significant problem in the SC community.

 

[jmg]

speaking of which, anyone notice that the Scythe has been substantially buffed in 2.6.1?
did some extensive pvp'ing last night at SPK against a wing of six guys in super hornets.. I died, of course, but actually took out 2 hornets and severely wounded 1. if you haven't tried this ship out, I highly recommend it.

 

[Asylum]

speaking of which, anyone notice that the Scythe has been substantially buffed in 2.6.1?
did some extensive pvp'ing last night at SPK against a wing of six guys in super hornets.. I died, of course, but actually took out 2 hornets and severely wounded 1. if you haven't tried this ship out, I highly recommend it.

Wasn't it a limited purchase? Is it part of the free fly?

 

[jmg]

Wasn't it a limited purchase? Is it part of the free fly?

I pledged it a while ago--- i think some time after the endeavor was made available.
The Glaive is rentable with in-game REC right now to subscribers. The Glaive is overall even tougher than the scythe, but a bit slower.
I don't *think* the scythe is a "ship of the week," but I'm not sure.. my son may have had it in his account, and I certainly didn't gift him one (but maybe he's pledging.. I guess I should check my amazon password )

 

[Tippis]

Wasn't it a limited purchase? Is it part of the free fly?

Speaking of which, why are they even limiting what ships you can fly before the game has been balanced and released? Are they actively trying to make sure the game isn't tested properly?

 

[ianw]

cmon man.. just let it go. The points have all been made. Some people will look at giving money as a donation, others as a sale... can't we just leave it at that? We're all reasonable people in here. I hardly think anything we're saying is "outrageous." people have can have different opinions about things, even if we're looking at the very same facts. Let's live and let live, and continue talking about star citizen-- a game we all enjoy playing (which, at least ostensibly, is the point of this forum)

You can think of it anyway you like and call it anything you want to.

But the reality is that legally in pretty much any jurisdiction it's sold it is regarded as a purchase that is subject to the relevant laws wherever the purchase was made.

If it wasn't there wouldn't be any refunds.

 

[jmg]

You can think of it anyway you like and call it anything you want to.

But the reality is that legally in pretty much any jurisdiction it's sold it is regarded as a purchase that is subject to the relevant laws wherever the purchase was made.

Well, like I said, we're all entitled to our opinion. I'm not entirely sure about your legal analysis is correct though... you've researched every jurisdiction in the U.S. on the issue? bravo.. I've been a lawyer for almost 20 years, and I could never have done it that quickly!! I can't speak to Brit law, so if that's what you're referring to, I'll defer to you on that.

Anyone else fly the warden recently? little dissapointed that you can't swap out the front guns, especially since now they appear a little nerfed. ...

 

[Asylum]

I pledged it a while ago--- i think some time after the endeavor was made available.
The Glaive is rentable with in-game REC right now to subscribers. The Glaive is overall even tougher than the scythe, but a bit slower.
I don't *think* the scythe is a "ship of the week," but I'm not sure.. my son may have had it in his account, and I certainly didn't gift him one (but maybe he's pledging.. I guess I should check my amazon password )

Hmm ya I think a limited were sold (300) back in early 2013. Grey market had a few for sale but don't think they ever went on sale at CIG beyond that initial sale.

Perhaps part of the free fly?

Glaive isn't authentic as per lore, just a knock off...cause selling enemy ships to civilians during a time of war is smart


They sold another one right? I can't remember the name but it was nice looking.

 

[jmg]

Hmm ya I think a limited were sold (300) back in early 2013. Grey market had a few for sale but don't think they ever went on sale at CIG beyond that initial sale.

Perhaps part of the free fly?

Glaive isn't authentic as per lore, just a knock off...cause selling enemy ships to civilians during a time of war is smart


They sold another one right? I can't remember the name but it was nice looking.

There are a few ships that are avilable in game/still in development:

scythe-- the asymetrical one, flight ready. The official lore about this one is that its manufacturered by a company (esperia) that specializes in reverse-engineering alien tech and recreating it. Available in game
Glaive- super limited.. I think you could only get it by winning Vandull swarm. I believe (though I 'd have to check) that the lore on this one is that it's a "captured" ship, it's not manufactured by esperia, at least I don't think it is. . looks like a symetrical scythe-- has two knife-edge wings. Available in game.
Blade- scout -- same kind of back story as the sythe, vanduul ship. I forget if this one is available yet
Prowler-- alien troop carrier, in development. MAnufactured by esperia. Forget the name of the race it was copied from, NOT the vanduul.
Khartu al (sp?)-- I believe also made by esperia, a small scout ship. weak and lightly armed, available in game.



I may be missing one or two, but those are the major ones.

 

[Stigbob]

cmon man.. just let it go. The points have all been made. Some people will look at giving money as a donation, others as a sale... can't we just leave it at that? We're all reasonable people in here. I hardly think anything we're saying is "outrageous." people have can have different opinions about things, even if we're looking at the very same facts. Let's live and let live, and continue talking about star citizen-- a game we all enjoy playing (which, at least ostensibly, is the point of this forum)

When it comes to consumer rights a lot of countries have specific legislation preventing customers from forfeiting their rights (even when they are really, really keen to do so having been suckered in). Asking customers to forfeit their rights or telling them they have non is also very bad practice on a good day, illegal on a bad one for companies. It's all about fraud prevention, and protecting the easily fooled from themselves.

Buying on the black/grey-market is different you've got no rights at all.

 

[jmg]

Hmm ya I think a limited were sold (300) back in early 2013. Grey market had a few for sale but don't think they ever went on sale at CIG beyond that initial sale.

Perhaps part of the free fly?

Glaive isn't authentic as per lore, just a knock off...cause selling enemy ships to civilians during a time of war is smart


They sold another one right? I can't remember the name but it was nice looking.

Also forgot the Banu Merchantman.. I believe similar lore to the others, Manufactured by Esperia, a large trade ship based on the Banu race.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

Also forgot the Banu Merchantman.. I believe similar lore to the others, Manufactured by Esperia, a large trade ship based on the Banu race.

BMM is the perennial Elephant in the room. Even when the CiG forums were ultra-supportive, there were still threads cropping up asking when people would be able to fly the ship they had paid a lot of money for. Been 3 years now I think and still not anywhere near flight-ready :/

 

[jmg]

BMM is the perennial Elephant in the room. Even when the CiG forums were ultra-supportive, there were still threads cropping up asking when people would be able to fly the ship they had paid a lot of money for. Been 3 years now I think and still not anywhere near flight-ready :/

I dont think the BMM is the "perennial" elephant... was it announced before or after the endeavor? That to me is big one. OR maybe the phoenix.
Not much of a point in releasing a trade ship though when trade mechanics haven't yet been implemented -- though that just points to a different issue

 

[Tippis]

When it comes to consumer rights a lot of countries have specific legislation preventing customers from forfeiting their rights (even when they are really, really keen to do so having been suckered in). Asking customers to forfeit their rights or telling them they have non is also very bad practice on a good day, illegal on a bad one for companies. It's all about fraud prevention, and protecting the easily fooled from themselves.

…and that's before we even get into the really scummy thing CIG has done, like lying to their customers about the nature of chargebacks, or lying to payment processors about the transactions they've made with the customers, or lying to the customers about what terms they're subject to, or lying to state DAs about the ToS (before folding and doing as they were told).

Let's face it, CIG is not exactly an honest company.

Buying on the black/grey-market is different you've got no rights at all.

Coincidentally also the reason why any sensible company tries their hardest to stamp out those kinds of practices — it just causes grief and legal issues for everyone, especially if they're seen to tacitly (or even explicitly) allowing it.

 

[VidarSnipes]

I dont think the BMM is the "perennial" elephant... was it announced before or after the endeavor? That to me is big one. OR maybe the phoenix.
Not much of a point in releasing a trade ship though when trade mechanics haven't yet been implemented -- though that just points to a different issue

Merchantman was a 27 million stretch goal, Endeavour - 47 million stretch goal. As for your second point, Starfarer is flyable even though there are no refuelling or fuel gathering mechanics.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

I dont think the BMM is the "perennial" elephant... was it announced before or after the endeavor? That to me is big one. OR maybe the phoenix.
Not much of a point in releasing a trade ship though when trade mechanics haven't yet been implemented -- though that just points to a different issue

Well yes, sometimes it was posted as a loaded question, or a rope-a-dope, if you will

 

[jmg]

Well yes, sometimes it was posted as a loaded question, or a rope-a-dope, if you will

yeah, I can see that.

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Merchantman was a 27 million stretch goal, Endeavour - 47 million stretch goal. As for your second point, Starfarer is flyable even though there are no refuelling or fuel gathering mechanics.

starfarer? I was referring to the phoenix-- one of the earliest ships released.. pretty sure before the BMM. It looks pretty in a hangar, but still hasn't even gotten the second-pass the Andromeda has received, and far from flight ready (TM)

the star farer is, as you point out, another ship without a mission.. we use it as a flloating base on org nights some times when SPK is overrun with newbs. kind of a "defend the whale" type of thing. But other than that, it's a "gee whiz" kind of ship.. fun to roam around in, so huge even if you have 6 people on board you can almost play without running into anyone, but more of a demonstrator than anything else.

We actually had done FPS using the starfarer as a base, seems CIG stole our idea -- one of the new 2.6.1 missions includes a derelict starfarer that you have to EVA to, then fight of vanduall scum while trying to escape.

 

[VidarSnipes]

yeah, I can see that.

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starfarer? I was referring to the phoenix-- one of the earliest ships released.. pretty sure before the BMM. It looks pretty in a hangar, but still hasn't even gotten the second-pass the Andromeda has received, and far from flight ready (TM)

the star farer is, as you point out, another ship without a mission.. [...]

Are you serious? I have specifically separated talking about a)whether Endeavour or Merchantman was announced earlier, b)that Starfarer is an example of how lack of mechanics doesn't stop CIG from releasing a ship made for those mechanics, It doesn't matter how far along the trading is, it has nothing to do with Merchantman's release date.