Well more than one sci fi series jumped the space whale, by implementing bad lore
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Gunner = Arcade Action Cam for the 12 yr olds?
- Thread starter MyHammer
- Start date
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quoted for truth.
dude, i seriously can't understand the twists and turns some people use to complain about any new addition to the game.. nothing seems to satisfy these wailing bairns, with their cries of 'my immersion', even when every new addition to the game has been something optional. it is almost as if they want the game to fail.. do people not understand the need to do new things, and expand on others to garner new players. repeating the same thing on the principle that 'it is the way it has always been/is/should be done' is an act of futility, and a death by a thousand cuts.
X-Terminator
Banned
Just a thought here, you'd expect these Crewe roles to be quite engaging and a challenge with as much layers as the pilot has (who is also Navigator, Mission Planner, Target Management, Scan Management, Coms Controller, Radar Observer, Helm Controller, Systems Management, Modules Management, Weapons Group Configurations, Map Resource & Filter Specialist, Target Analysis, Cargo & Data Management, and Commander of Crewe) so if a GUNNER has just 2 firebuttons then surely he can target 2 Turrets at the same time at 2 DIFFERENT TARGETS!
So expand on that and make his role much harder than this arcade crap. For other turrets he much change between them. Even allow him to see all available turrets POV for own choice of difficulty to manage. Just rid the crap.
So expand on that and make his role much harder than this arcade crap. For other turrets he much change between them. Even allow him to see all available turrets POV for own choice of difficulty to manage. Just rid the crap.
Well more than one sci fi series jumped the space whale, by implementing bad lore
what exactly is 'bad lore' about a technology that can be rationalised.. even by today's standards.. and is little different to a system that tracks, displays and passes off the target image, from turret camera to turret camera, as it moves? the only difference is that the new system stitches multiple feeds into a single display, rather than displaying it as an individual feed turret by turret. its hardly a leap in technology, just a different way to compile, render and display the information that is already available.
now lets take it a step backwards.. everything we need to logically explain the new gunner feed, already exists in nature, let alone in the technology a thousand years from now. marine mammals, birds, bats, insects.. all have unique systems for navigation and viewing the environment they move around in.. and as modern technology is basically a synthetic composite of natural ability, what is the 'realism' issue?
how do we explain the progress the game has made in spite of the many design choices that fall outside of your 'good lore'? lore is, and always will be, dictated by those who produce it, those who consume it do it through choice, and what is good, or bad, is simply a matter of taste. if trying new things was bad for Elite, the game would not exist today, and if they don't continue with that same mindset, it likely wont exist tomorrow.
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There must have been some changes since I went to SagA (which was after 2.0 launched but prior to 2.1) but at that time I distinctly remember situations where my Asp would start to overheat when fuel scooping and to prevent module damage I would sometimes turn off my fuel scoop when I couldn't get out of scooping range fast enough. That would cool down my ship much faster once I disengaged the scoop. The heat mechanics have probably changed quite a bit since then so it's entirely possible that fuel scooping no longer directly affects heat but I have definitely seen it affect my ship's heat directly in the past.
Shielding that blocks high-energy gamma will not heat up significantly during the process of shielding because it absorbs or deflects the radiation, it doesn't convert it into thermal energy.
No, I'm really not.
The issue here is that if you are flying directly through the star's corona you are going to have to deal with superheated hydrogen that is millions of kelvin and is also in direct contact with your hull. That will melt most materials instantly, in much the same as if you were using a laser to burn through your hull, so presumably Elite ships must be specifically designed to handle very high temperatures while fuel scooping.
The heat radiators need to use some conductive method to get heat from the inside of your ship to the radiators on your ship's hull, i.e., likely some type of coolant system. The efficiency of the transfer of heat from your ship's heat radiators to the surrounding space will depend on the temperature gradient between those heat radiators and that space. When you're in deep space which is basically zero kelvin they will be at their most efficient, when you are in close proximity to a start at several thousand kelvin they will be less efficient and they really shouldn't work at all when flying through a star's corona because the corona temperatures are much hotter then the inside of your ship (i.e., if anything they would work in reverse and the corona's temperatures would actually heat up the insides of the ship).
It doesn't make any sense at all to try to cool down the ship's hull because you have nowhere to transfer the heat. You can't cool the outside of the hull to a lower temperature then the surrounding space without heating up something else, i.e., the inside of the ship in the process. Most likely the hull is simply a very good insulator and temperatures of thousands of degrees kelvin on the outside of the ship aren't conducted to the ship's interior. You could, however, achieve the reverse process to cool the insides of a ship by taking the high heat levels generated from the ship's reactor, conducting the heat through a coolant loop to the heat radiators and then radiating the waste heat into space. When you don't want to radiate that waste heat, i.e., in silent running mode, you simply close the heat radiator vents and become thermally insulated from the surrounding space and your ship disappears from sensors.
See above re. using some type of thermally-resistant compound to insulate spacecraft hulls. This is actually the same principle used with the heat shield system on the space shuttle that uses ceramic tiles. The ceramic material can withstand extreme temperatures generated during orbital reentry on the outside of the shuttle while keeping the inside of the ship from heating up because there is no way for the heat to be conducted through the ceramic material. The issue here is that if a tile breaks or becomes detached that is now a hole in your heat shield and the heat can now cause catastrophic damage to the inside of the ship. That's exactly what caused the destruction of the Columbia when they reentered orbit with damage to their ship's heat shield. Presumably a similar hull material exists in Elite to prevent ships from melting when scooping fuel and this would also be far more robust and damage-resistant then the technology we currently have available (otherwise any hull damage would make fuel scooping extremely risky).
Flying the ship with an external camera but no combat functionality isn't useful, the point is that we should be able to pilot the ship with the god-mode 3rd-person perspective and still have access to the HUD and weapons, just like the multicrew gunners.
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Well more than one sci fi series jumped the space whale, by implementing bad lore
True, but in a good living universe lore is adaptable over time as the game advances. New features in the game are new discoveries in the world. QoL functions are simply untapped ideas that fit within current capabilities. Suddenly things aren't off limits because the lore isn't monolithic, but moves with the game universe itself.
Instant escape pod recovery, instant outfitting and instant cargo loading/unloading are completely different from implementing a god-mode perspective for gunners in multicrew.
The first set of examples are designed that way simply to simply save time, much like a time acceleration feature, they could have added a delay with minimal effort but chose not to. The example of a god-mode perspective however goes against everything the game is supposed to represent and is a lazy, arcade-like game feature that destroys immersion.
And guess what happens when a laser or explosive hits that corrosive substance? Oh right, it does more damage to the hull then it otherwise would. Almost like the combination of heat, pressure and a corrosive substance is inflicting additional damage.
No, sorry, being a corrosive substance does not suddenly make it into a high explosive. They are completely different chemicals with different properties.
Except that the corrosive substance is not a damage over time effect, it's an effect that requires another weapon to hit the hull in order to deliver any increased damage. You aren't getting free magic damage just for putting a corrosive substance on the hull, you're getting laser/explosive/kinetic damage from other weapons + corrosive substance working together to inflict more damage then you would otherwise do to the hull.
Ok, you might as well stop playing Elite and any other sci-fi game. FTL is just one of those things you need to accept if you want to enjoy the vast majority of sci-fi settings.
How is "witchspce" somehow possible in the real world when other FTL systems aren't? It is just as made-up as every other FTL in every other sci-fi setting.
Light isn't "acting like a solid". It is being absorbed or deflected with a defensive system that generates an electromagnetic field.
It's being called a lazy, god-mod, arcade-like perspective because that's exactly what it is.
Arcade-like game mechanics are distinguished from sim games (even space sim games which are only really half-sim at best) because players do not play Elite for an arcade-like gaming experience. They play it for immersion and consistency and once the game loses that it really isn't a very good game at all. The entire reason to play the game is basically gone and that is why there is so much opposition to features that are implemented in a lazy, arcade-like manner.
It wasn't even multicrew that started the decline in Elite gameplay, it was really thermodynamically impossible heat weapon effects and the magic healing beam lasers that were added to the game as some type of magic MMO "effects" that are not consistent with Elite technology or lore. They did eventually nerf the heat meta back into something reasonable but now they have something even worse in the form of the god-mode multicrew camera.
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so nice of you to speak for all us players.. seriously where do you get off?? i play elite because i like playing elite, it is really that simple, and i'm pretty sure that is the same for most players.. whatever their reason for liking it is.
as for a 'god mode.. what a clueless comment.. the gunner does not, nor can he practically control the flow of combat, he is at best a passenger with some target control, and at worst a nuisance who based on gun control and attitude.. is a damn liability to your standing in any given system.. but.. but.. but.. 2 extra pips.. yeah and if i was in another ship it would be double the available pips.. there is no more a 'god mode' in this, than in any other part of the game. it has nothing close to the flexibility and raw power a full wing can apply in the field, and seeing as multi crew is essentially a wing in its own right, it is basically the under powered, lesser sibling of a half decent wing.
as the devs have said, it provides a way to get players together for some 'fun' and not unlike reasons to play, is different for different people?? so regardless of distance, or occupation, it provides a variety of game play opportunities.. should you wish to use it.. coaching new players, a chance for an out of bubble explorer to do some pew pew with friends, a chance for small craft players to get up close to big ships, some decent RP, and that other stuff some folks float their boats on.. it is a great idea for an addition to the game, it is totally optional.. and again.. is no flaming god mode.. grow up!!
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If it's absorbed it's converted into something. Conservation of energy and all.
Usually this means it winds up as heat.
I still think you are confusing heat and temperature.
Temperature is only part of the equation. Temperature itself says exactly nothing about the total energy contained in something. You need to know the mass and specific heat capacity as well.
Air at normal pressure is a billion times as dense as coronal matter. The coronal matter in and of itself cannot appreciably heat your ship for the same reason you can't boil a lake by dropping one red hot coal into it.
The corona is so diffuse (~10^9 atoms per cubic cm) that even at millions of degrees the tiny mass in contact with your ship wouldn't have enough energy to be anywhere near the largest source of heating. Were I somehow completely shielded from the radiation of the star, I could hold my hand in coronal matter and not get burned because there aren't enough atoms to transfer heat to my skin faster than my body could move the heat away.
The radiators would have to be extremely hot to be able to cool the vessel purely by radiation, so there is clearly a heatpump of some sort at this stage.
You keep treating space like there is some sort of matter to conduct heat into.
The only practical way to cool an object in space is radiative cooling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiative_transfer). Our ship's radiators are, perforce, vastly hotter than the inside of the ship, because radiative efficiency is so dependent on temperature and the radiators are so small.
ISS and Space shuttle use heatpumps and radiators as well:
https://www.nasa.gov/content/cooling-system-keeps-space-station-safe-productive
https://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/reference/shutref/orbiter/eclss/atcs.html
Again, heat pumps. Ever used an air conditioner or a refrigerator? You can cool a space to far lower temperatures than the air you are using to cool the condensor. This is a form of heatpump.
Between the ship's radiators, which have to be glowing hot to work efficiently, there must be a heatpump to move heat from the relatively cooler interior and skin to the radiators.
No amount of insulation can replace actual heat removal/active heat rejection in the long term, the shuttle's thermal tiles included.
Since our ships can sit in close proximity to hot star indefinitely, the radiators are effectively cooling the vessel the entire time. If the hull/skin were not actively cooled, it would eventually overheat, and it would retain heat far longer than necessary.
That's a balance/flavor call on Frontier's part, just like countless other aspects of the game.
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The game was NEVER designed or marketed as an arcade game. It was designed with a kickstarter with very specific goals and aims, you can watch videos of Braben spelling out exactly the type of game he wanted to make.
The perspective of being able to see the ship from a distance, from a non-existent camera, in a way that gives you situational awareness and perspective that does not otherwise exist in Elite gameplay?
That's why it's being called a god-mode perspective.
Except that the way they've implemented multicrew provides such massive bonuses, for ZERO drawbacks and actual effort, that you are at a severe disadvantage if you don't use multicrew in some manner. That means that much like Engineering upgrades it will be necessary for any serious combat, either by having other players crewing the stations or (more likely) by simply having an AFK second account to provide passive benefits.
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![[VR] Merkir](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/141/141091.jpg?1553527154){kind=avatar}
It's only being called god-mode by you. Even today's technology can create a reconstruction at an external viewing point which would very closely mimic a real camera at that location. That's today's technology. In 1000 years the reconstruction accuracy would be so good that it would be hard to distinguish a reconstruction from the real thing. Again, I'm not being an apologist for FD here, but I have to defend them against silly comments like "god-mode perspective". If you want to complain about something, make it more credible like the truly god-mode instantaneous, zero latency, across-the-galaxy data transfer technology called telepresence.
Perhaps it's being processed by a ship computer as if there is a camera drone....?
Except that the amount of ionizing radiation necessary to kill cells due to genetic damage is dramatically lower then the amount of thermal radiation required to heat an object. Once you get so much ionizing radiation that you start heating up the shielding itself the amount of lethal radiation that gets through is so high that you are well past what would be biologically survivable.
I routinely used UV irradiation to sterilize certain laboratory surfaces and it did not heat the surface up noticeably but it was highly effective at killing any living microbes on those surfaces. It's the same with gamma sterilization of medical equipment, it uses a cobalt-60 source that doesn't heat the objects but readily sterilizes them.
Except that there is also "weather" in a star's corona which can vary substantially from those average particle densities under certain circumstances. Coronal mass ejections, for example, would have FAR higher particle densities and temperatures then the typical average throughout the corona. In Elite we don't have to deal with this but it would be a significant issue when flying through the corona of an actual star.
The issue here is that it's the fusion reactor that powers the ship that needs to be cooled and you could very readily run a coolant loop from the reactor core to the heat radiators. The reactor temperatures would be high enough that there would probably be a differential of several thousand kelvin (possibly more) between the heat radiators and the surrounding space which would mean a significant amount of heat would be radiated into space.
A coolant loop from a ship's reactor (or other heat-generating systems) can take heat from the inside of an insulated ship and carry it to the outside as waste heat. The insulated ship's hull is what keeps that system from simply reaching a thermal equilibrium. It's the same as how an air conditioner or refrigerator needs to both exhaust its waste heat AND be sufficiently insulated in order to keep the interior cool. The outside of a house or refridgerator is not allowed to equilibrate with the inside because the refridgerator (or house) is insulated.
That's why it would not be useful trying to somehow cool the OUTSIDE of the ship's hull with a coolant system if it were next to a star because you could only take the heat from the hull and pull it INSIDE the ship if you wanted to cool it below the ambient temperature. You could certainly deign a system to cool the hull but all it would do is produce a slightly cooler hull and a MUCH hotter ship interior which is the opposite of what you want to achieve.
The issue that I think you're missing here is that the temperatures you're seeing on the HUD heat gauge are INTERNAL ship temperatures, they have noting to do with the external hull. The only way that your heat management is affected by external temperatures is what I described above about your heat radiators becoming less efficient when there is a high ambient temperature. The temperature of the external hull layer does not matter if it can't be conducted to the inside of the ship. Ships in Elite generate FAR more internal heat from the operation of their internal components then they do simply by being next to a star, it is basically impossible to overheat your ship with modules and systems powered down no matter how close to a star you get. The only exception here are neutron stars and pulsars which FD has designed to specifically damage/destroy your ship's systems if you are in the pulsar's jet cones (and that is really more about your ship dealing with massive amounts of high energy gamma then it is about thermal effects per se).
Except that the way they are implementing multicrew with god-mode cameras and magic power pips is a completely immersion-destroying way of implementing what could otherwise have been a very well-received, immersion-creating multicrew system.
That is why players are so outspoken on this issue, FD had a massive opportunity to take Elite gameplay to the next level and instead they took it down several notches.
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I'll call it god mode. Or at least god's-eye mode.
So there you go, there's 2.
Call it whatever you like. In 1983, we called it Tailgunner.
Oh... wait, we didn't. Tailgunner didn't have a fraking 3rd party view.
Cut this out. Unless you've made your own equally complex massively online space game, stop taking a god damn dump on incredibly hard working developers building this game just because you're so whinny and needy that everything needs to be done exactly how you want or you throw a fit. If you have made your own space game then, hey, quit whining and go play it instead.
I am sick and tired of seeing the miserable people in this thread and elsewhere blasting these the folks at frontier as "uuunngggh they're so laaaazzzzy. They didn't do things how I wanted so they're so laaaazzzyy." You can't just disagree with the direction they've taken, you have to insult them on top of it because you're not being catered to at every second. Screw all of you.
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Yup, eye of God in one of my posts too.
Actually several other posters have used similar terms as wel. Myself and others have also used the term arcade-mode, which his also accurate.
No, our technology really doesn't do this at all. Surround-view parking cameras only show the driver a HIGHLY distorted surround view superimposed onto a standard computer-generated schematic image of the car. It really has very little relation to the precise reality of where objects are located around the car other than being able to show you an object's approximate position when parking. It would be useless for accurately driving the vehicle at any significant speed, much less for combat, weapon targeting or anything more complex or precise than simply driving your car into a parking stall.
Right, and like I said, WHERE is this technology in the rest of the Elite universe?
It certainly isn't in my cockpit, which requires me to look out of a vulnerable, brittle cockpit canopy if I want to see anything.
It certainly isn't in my docking computer, which still smashes my ship into the station wall on a semi-regular basis.
It certainly isn't in my ship's defensive systems which fails to do anything to tell me when a ship is in a blindspot.
So where exactly did this amazing sensor technology come from? And why does a gunner get to use it but the pilot, why literally flies the entire ship and controls all its critical systems, doesn't get to use these advanced combat sensors at all? Instead the pilot is still stuck with a VERY simplified radar display showing little triangles?
Explain to me again why a gunner gets a god-mode perspective and the pilot's only option for situational awareness is to literally LOOK OUT THE CANOPY?
That's being discussed extensively in other threads, in fact some players are even more concerned about this then they are about the god-mode gunner perspective. We've really got four major problems with 2.3 gameplay at the moment: magic god-mod perspective, magic telepresence, magic power pips and magic bounty duplication. These ridiculous gameplay decisions and passive bonuses mean that once 2.3 launches anyone who plays in Open will basically need to have a second AFK account to remain competitive, much like how it's essential to invest in Engineering upgrades to remain competitive in combat.
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I only see one. Supposedly grown up people going wild like '12 year olds' before even having played the beta.
If people are so insecure they need to disregard something as 'for 12 year olds', there's a major issue and it's not with the game.
The second account boost is a valid concern and ought to be discussed once we see it in beta. But it hasn't got anything to do with telepresence or what some think is an arcade camera without a place in their ship hull life bar game.
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Hey, this might be a dumb question, but have we had it confirmed that the extra multiplayer pip actually ADDS anything to the distributor in terms of stored MW or regen? Or does it just divide it up differently (into 5 or 6 instead of 4) to better give other stations a piece of the power pie?
no, clearly WE don't have 4 issues with the game at the moment.. you and some vocal others have an issue with the concept of what a game is, compared to a simulator.. and also just issues. i thought it was bad enough having Witnesses knocking my door once a month, trying to tell me how i should live my life, even though they know nothing about my life, and have been asked repeatedly not too.. i now have folks like you trying to evangelise the 1 true Elite Dangerous, and telling everyone how it should be designed, how it should be implemented and how it should be played. the level of arrogance and entitlement is.. i could write very descriptive words all day, and it still wouldn't sufficiently convey just how destructive, inconsiderate and puerile i view the Elite puritan types who seem to find something objectionable in everything put forward by frontier.
1st and foremost.. this is a game.. go check the comments on steam, and maybe you will understand some of frontiers recent design decisions.. now either the game cant survive on the current player base alone, so frontier needs to introduce features that will appeal to a broader audience (ergo, stuff you disagree with) or, the game can survive on the current player base, which means that frontier has predominantly been making the right design choices (still stuff you disagree with) now you really need to pick 1, because you cant argue neither, or both.. not that it matters, because either way you look at it.. they are doing what they need to push the game forward.
TL&DR
if you find something objectionable in everything frontier put forward.. it stands a good chance that the issue is with you, and not with frontier
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