It feels like someone is doing their job wrong

[Silvere]

Sadly I'm still moderated so I have no idea when my replies appear, but to answer this post:

However, you mentioned blame / fault.

In these kind of projects you can pretty much assume that the programmers are doing what they're told, and that the direction - the good and the bad and the down right ' awful comes from the top.

Braben, is as vague as anything on any of his AMA's / posts / vlogs, but he 'sounds' as though he wants and see's great things for Elite Dangerous.

It's the people he's delegated that to.

Of course. I'm mainly assuming certain positions that could be at fault. That's why I didn't want to call out a specific position because we simply can't identify as we are not on the team. We can have vague guesses and yours seem somewhat correct too. A programmer assumption was just based on the fact that they may have a few bad programmers who keep holding up somewhere in the developement chain. It might be absolutely untrue. Note that I excluded the Art & Sound Team completely because from what we can gather it seems like they aren't a likely possibility to be a big source of problems due to quality of their work. So the most practical conclusion would be somewhere in the chain from absolute Top(Braben) down to the intern-programmer.

I truly hope they sort it out if the assumptions are correct!

 

[Loskene]

Although I found myself nodding in agreement to the sentiment, Sleut...that ideal doesn't hold for any other game so in theory, it shouldn't for ED and Frontier... it's a bit too simplistic an argument to hold much water...

He's a man who specialises in overly simplistic, often non-sequitur responses to issues in an attempt to distract or handwaive away problems and cast FDev as "no different from any other developer." I see his name turn up in every criticism thread (no matter how minor) and was counting down the seconds until he'd start wasting everyone's time and energy here. One of, if not, the worst of the so-called white knights, best not engaged with at all. The goal of the white knight is not to argumentatively refute any claims, but to simply keep talking and drain enough energy from their opponents that they get sick of trying to break through the nonsense and quit. Thus ensuring only positive comments make it through the filter. If I didn't know better I'd nearly say he was on FD's payroll, I never see him doing anything else, and companies have done far shadier things than that in the past.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Although I found myself nodding in agreement to the sentiment, Sleut...that ideal doesn't hold for any other game so in theory, it shouldn't for ED and Frontier... it's a bit too simplistic an argument to hold much water...

I dont see why it shouldnt hold for other games. I never played Skyrim wondering why I couldnt visit the twin moons. Or played GTA wondering why I could engineer my cars properly in-game. You can always imagine wanting to do more, and the reason you cant is always because you're playing a computer game for which you paid a relatively small amount of money that is not going to be enough to do offer whatever you want whenever you want. Its just that in space-games, where an increased scope is almost inherently easier to imagine, that people go nuts with expectations. And then go berserk when disappointed. It happened to pretty much every large-scale space-game in recent history. NMS, CoD:IW, DE:MD, ED: they all got very poor to mediocre user review average scores.

if you'd said ten years ago there would be a spacesim, with an excellent flight model, dozens of ships you can outfit and further customize, tens of thousands of local factions you can help and hinder, a huge BGS that you can profiteer from as a trader or smuggler, hundreds of millions of massive 1:1 scale planets you can land on, with amazing backdrops, a galaxy where you can visit thousands upon thousands of real astronomical bodies, all the above with full VR and HOTAS support people would have laughed at you and said you were insane. Now its not good enough. And not even because other games went even further. No, because we simply want more.

Well, boohoo.

 

[Loskene]

I dont see why it shouldnt hold for other games. I never played Skyrim wondering why I couldnt visit the twin moons. Or played GTA wondering why I could engineer my cars properly in-game. You can always imagine wanting to do more, and the reason you cant is always because you're playing a computer game for which you paid a relatively small amount of money that is not going to be enough to do offer whatever you want whenever you want. Its just that in space-games, where an increased scope is almost inherently easier to imagine, that people go nuts with expectations. And then go berserk when disappointed. It happened to pretty much every large-scale space-game in recent history. NMS, CoD:IW, DE:MD, ED: they all got very poor to mediocre user review average scores.

if you'd said ten years ago there would be a spacesim, with an excellent flight model, dozens of ships you can outfit and further customize, tens of thousands of local factions you can help and hinder, a huge BGS that you can profiteer from as a trader or smuggler, hundreds of millions of massive 1:1 scale planets you can land on, with amazing backdrops, a galaxy where you can visit thousands upon thousands of real astronomical bodies, all the above with full VR and HOTAS support people would have laughed at you and said you were insane. Now its not good enough. And not even because other games went even further. No, because we simply want more.

Hahaha, perfect timing. See what I mean?

 

[Ian Skippy]

I've been waiting quietly and patiently since June 2014...

Good. Keep at it. Or make us a better game and show us how its done. Or find us a better game we havent heared of yet. Everything beats whining.

 

[MRkiller701]

All I really hope at this point is for the 2.4 update to really make things a lot more fleshed out.

 

[sollisb]

Simple answer, and people here who love to complain wont get it, but here goes:

The average selling price of Horizons is +-E30. That means the average cost per patch is 30/6=E5,-. So if you want to know why you didnt get more Multi-crew, more holo-me, more etc: this was the best they could do with your (on average) E5,-. Everyone wants more, but at the end of the day people just need to be a bit more realistic.

This doesn't make business sense at al. Sorry.

Lets take a east figure of 100,000 players... Now lets just say each of them buy 5 ship colours at 7 stg each... = 700,000 sterling. Lets also say 50,000 of them bought all name plate variations.. 7 varioations x 2 quit... = 14 quit x 50,000 = 700,000... they are making money hand over fist. None of this includes original sales, kickstarter, XBOx sales or PS4 upcoming sales.

They have the money.. just lack the vision.

 

[Mole HD]

Good. Keep at it. Or make us a better game and show us how its done. Or find us a better game we havent heared of yet. Everything beats whining.

With respect, mate... you seem to be the only one whining in this entire thread....

 

[Loskene]

This doesn't make business sense at al. Sorry.

Lets take a east figure of 100,000 players... Now lets just say each of them buy 5 ship colours at 7 stg each... = 700,000 sterling. Lets also say 50,000 of them bought all name plate variations.. 7 varioations x 2 quit... = 14 quit x 50,000 = 700,000... they are making money hand over fist. None of this includes original sales, kickstarter, XBOx sales or PS4 upcoming sales.

They have the money.. just lack the vision.

Don't take the bait, mate.

 

[Ian Skippy]

This doesn't make business sense at al. Sorry.

Lets take a east figure of 100,000 players... Now lets just say each of them buy 5 ship colours at 7 stg each... = 700,000 sterling. Lets also say 50,000 of them bought all name plate variations.. 7 varioations x 2 quit... = 14 quit x 50,000 = 700,000... they are making money hand over fist. None of this includes original sales, kickstarter, XBOx sales or PS4 upcoming sales.

They have the money.. just lack the vision.

If 'lack of vision' is the issue then just play those superior alternative games. Wait, they dont exist. How can that be, if so many people want to have a game 'they deserve', and all you need is some 'vision', it doesnt make business sense at all that noone fills that gap in the market?

Maybe its not as easy as you think.

 

[verminstar]

Ugh... well, it's the first time I've regret I've bought Horizons. I don't own Xbox and don't want to buy it to be able to play game adequately and without bugs.
In the first place because I'm playing with HOTAS setup and Xbox doesn't support any.

Im sure someone could be kind enough to supply a link, but there is already work going on developing an xbox compatible hotas...I remember seeing the article on my homepage, but the news was somewhat drowned out by the hype over the scorpio. The demand is there, so really its just a matter of time before that demand is met.

Strangely enough, I would actually recommend the xbone to anyone making do with mid range pc. I have accounts on both platforms, but actually prefer the console version because certain aspects are simply better on the xbone.

To give that a bit more perspective, I aint so much as logged in to this game since mass effect dropped, and would still make the recommendation based on that which is pre 2.3, and by all accounts 2.3 made significant improvements.

On topic...theres a topic? Im really not salty regardless what the white knights think...I got bored and moved onto a game with which Im a series fan. The fact I do still follow the forums is testamount to the part where I do agree this game has something special, and regardless what Im currently doing or playing, I know...or at least I hope that Im not done with this game yet.

There is real potential here...this game does have something very special about it...but its still a long way from perfect and the current trend appears to favour what is depressingly not harnessing that underlying potential. Its like drilling fer oil and knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that its literally bursting to get out, and FD keep bouncing the drill of iron plates 10 miles off course.

The other way if looking at it is from the cold hard logic of a 3 decade gamer. Patch time is bug time and always rough fer at least a couple weeks, even months in some cases...years in FD case but however...one is not salty6 because one has a fun distraction that one has no intention of stopping fer at least another couple months. Time enough fer FD to get their fingers and thumbs outta their proverbials and get their heads around what happens next.

I do still post here nearly every day...some would prefer I didnt post at all but thats ok...its the internet and I got a thick skin and honestly couldnt care less what anyone thinks of me. If ppl want me to post happy stuff then give me something to be happy about...something to look forward to in the future maybe...its not a big ask really is it?

In the meantime, theres always andromeda...cyas tomorrow

 

[Ian Skippy]

Im sure someone could be kind enough to supply a link, but there is already work going on developing an xbox compatible hotas...I remember seeing the article on my homepage, but the news was somewhat drowned out by the hype over the scorpio. The demand is there, so really its just a matter of time before that demand is met.

Strangely enough, I would actually recommend the xbone to anyone making do with mid range pc. I have accounts on both platforms, but actually prefer the console version because certain aspects are simply better on the xbone.

To give that a bit more perspective, I aint so much as logged in to this game since mass effect dropped, and would still make the recommendation based on that which is pre 2.3, and by all accounts 2.3 made significant improvements.

On topic...theres a topic? Im really not salty regardless what the white knights think...I got bored and moved onto a game with which Im a series fan. The fact I do still follow the forums is testamount to the part where I do agree this game has something special, and regardless what Im currently doing or playing, I know...or at least I hope that Im not done with this game yet.

There is real potential here...this game does have something very special about it...but its still a long way from perfect and the current trend appears to favour what is depressingly not harnessing that underlying potential. Its like drilling fer oil and knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that its literally bursting to get out, and FD keep bouncing the drill of iron plates 10 miles off course.

The other way if looking at it is from the cold hard logic of a 3 decade gamer. Patch time is bug time and always rough fer at least a couple weeks, even months in some cases...years in FD case but however...one is not salty6 because one has a fun distraction that one has no intention of stopping fer at least another couple months. Time enough fer FD to get their fingers and thumbs outta their proverbials and get their heads around what happens next.

I do still post here nearly every day...some would prefer I didnt post at all but thats ok...its the internet and I got a thick skin and honestly couldnt care less what anyone thinks of me. If ppl want me to post happy stuff then give me something to be happy about...something to look forward to in the future maybe...its not a big ask really is it?

In the meantime, theres always andromeda...cyas tomorrow

You mean this one?
http://imgur.com/a/fOFli

 

[JosiahD]

I dont see why it shouldnt hold for other games. I never played Skyrim wondering why I couldnt visit the twin moons. Or played GTA wondering why I could engineer my cars properly in-game. You can always imagine wanting to do more, and the reason you cant is always because you're playing a computer game for which you paid a relatively small amount of money that is not going to be enough to do offer whatever you want whenever you want. Its just that in space-games, where an increased scope is almost inherently easier to imagine, that people go nuts with expectations. And then go berserk when disappointed. It happened to pretty much every large-scale space-game in recent history. NMS, CoD:IW, DE:MD, ED: they all got very poor to mediocre user review average scores.

if you'd said ten years ago there would be a spacesim, with an excellent flight model, dozens of ships you can outfit and further customize, tens of thousands of local factions you can help and hinder, a huge BGS that you can profiteer from as a trader or smuggler, hundreds of millions of massive 1:1 scale planets you can land on, with amazing backdrops, a galaxy where you can visit thousands upon thousands of real astronomical bodies, all the above with full VR and HOTAS support people would have laughed at you and said you were insane. Now its not good enough. And not even because other games went even further. No, because we simply want more.

Well, boohoo.

I'm inclined to agree. Further, I think we're seeing the expected(?) outcome of Frontier's approach vs that used for Star Citizen. And while ED gets criticised for slow development and sometimes difficult to understand development priorities, at least we can play the game proper in the process. Meanwhile Star Citizen is oft criticised or at least joked about, by some, as something that will never be realised. I think both approaches clearly demonstrate just how difficult programming these types of games is, while in the process trying to appease a wide, diverse player audience (an impossible task, in truth) with high expectations (and not a little impatience). Nor is either approach especially wrong, but they were always going to draw criticism at some point, in their own way, simply because of the slow pace of developing something so complex. From what I can see, it's the integration of differing gameplay elements that creates many of the problems. What, would people prefer Frontier had used Chris Roberts' approach? I'm not always happy with Frontier's approach or development priorities, but I'd rather have what we have now, and the last two years of playing the game, than the alternative (largely because I think Chris Roberts has been over ambitious, as much as I want Star Citizen to succeed).

 

[Roybe]

On the BGS...insertions are very likely by hand....not automated or any type of front end.

As for how the BGS works...here, watch a video...carefully...and understand the simplicity of it all...as well as all the limitations the design has built in....the game is designed as a PvP tug of war, using PVE trophy collections as the weapon.

[video=youtube_share;EvJPyjmfdz0]https://youtu.be/EvJPyjmfdz0[/video]

 

[Ian Skippy]

I'm inclined to agree. Further, I think we're seeing the expected(?) outcome of Frontier's approach vs that used for Star Citizen. And while ED gets criticised for slow development and sometimes difficult to understand development priorities, at least we can play the game proper in the process. Meanwhile Star Citizen is oft criticised or at least joked about, by some, as something that will never be realised. I think both approaches clearly demonstrate just how difficult programming these types of games is, while in the process trying to appease a wide, diverse player audience (an impossible task, in truth) with high expectations (and not a little impatience). Nor is either approach especially wrong, but they were always going to draw criticism at some point, in their own way, simply because of the slow pace of developing something so complex. From what I can see, it's the integration of differing gameplay elements that creates many of the problems. What, would people prefer Frontier had used Chris Roberts' approach? I'm not always happy with Frontier's approach or development priorities, but I'd rather have what we have now, and the last two years of playing the game, than the alternative (largely because I think Chris Roberts has been over ambitious, as much as I want Star Citizen to succeed).

Indeed. I think when you look at the 'main three' other products (NMS, X:R, SC), the biggest issue has been over-reaching. One could even argue the same with ED. Yet at the same time the players feel they are not reaching far enough. Worse, this creates a circle, with people blaming game X for not having whatever game Y promises (even though it may not actually have it). In the end most, if not all, of these studios push themselves way too far, and end up delivering in general less than what they could have delivered with a more sensible scope. And as with NMS, the same will happen when SC 'fails': people will not blame their own expectations, but rather project them on some new hip game that will surely deliver everything.

Some of the mroe vocal 'boo FD' people here have actually shown this cycle multiple times: hyping ED, then jumping to SC, getting disapointed with that, jumping back to ED, getting disappointed and jumping to NMS, getting disappointed and jumping back to ED, and now jumping back to SC again. Its a never-ending cycle of non-stop frustration, fueled by a 'there is potential' which would be 'easily achieved with just a bit more vision' misconception. Meanwhile pc-gamers have the best entertainment at their disposal they could ever have played. Its a paradox, and a sad one at that.

 

[bitstorm]

From what I can see, it's the integration of differing gameplay elements that creates many of the problems. What, would people prefer Frontier had used Chris Roberts' approach? I'm not always happy with Frontier's approach or development priorities, but I'd rather have what we have now, and the last two years of playing the game, than the alternative (largely because I think Chris Roberts has been over ambitious, as much as I want Star Citizen to succeed).

I think so yes.

A diverse player base, a hugely broad range of features, an overly aggressive time window to get features out the door combined with Frontier's slow burn development process (which I approve of btw).

All that combined seem to be culminating in features that cannot be delivered to the desired level in the time frame required.

I also think the issues are compounded by ED having been Kickstarted, too many people think they "own" development direction of the game. And because season are paid up front, means people have a right (or at least feel they do) to endlessly complain.

Have you seen the current backlash on Star Citizen? It's just as bad as here, seems to be in the air right now, and fundamentally I see it as being down to the perception of customers feeling they're "owed", therefore you feel you have a right kick up a fuss till you get what you want.

I think ED's business model simply has to change for season 3. Haven't assessed the practicalities but I do think I'd like to see a switch to people paying *after* delivery.

That way, don't like it don't buy, simple. Frontier can take ED its way, players can come along for the ride, or not.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I think so yes.

A diverse player base, a hugely broad range of features, an overly aggressive time window to get features out the door combined with Frontier's slow burn development process (which I approve of btw).

All that combined seem to be culminating in features simply cannot be delivered to the desired level in the time frame required.

I also think the issues are compounded by ED having been Kickstarted, too many people think they "own" development direction of the game. And because season are paid up front, means people have a right (or at least feel they do) to endlessly complain.

Have you seen the current backlash on Star Citizen? It's just as bad as here and fundamentally I see it as being down to the perception of customers being "owed", therefore you feel you have a right kick up a fuss till you get what you want.

I think ED's business model simply has to change for season 3. Haven't assessed the practicalities but I do think I'd like to see a switch to people paying *after* delivery.

That way, don't like it don't buy, simple.

Pretty sure thats whats going to happen. Current 'season' model has people feeling entitled (in a literal sense, and rightfully so) to stuff they paid for but havent gotten yet. If FD has the reserve it would benefit everyone to just ask money once its done and working properly. Right now you are in a constant "you promised it earlier" versus "dont release when there are bugs" mess.

 

[Huros]

Really interesting thread, and all behaving so nicely about this!

In a nut shell... for future announcements we need to see more permenance and more content. Less on the features for the time being. (Maybe more "social" mechanisms.)

One upon a time, the criticism of ED was that it was "A mile wide but an inch deep" now it feels like it is five miles wide and half an inch deep.

Dont get me wrong, this game has ruined me for other games. It is basically a great game. But players just seem to go off a cliff when they have done everything there is to do, and they scream all the way to the bottom. Love turns to hate very quickly.

 

[Kaltern]

I'll just add my usual 'agree with OP' and move on - my opinions are pretty much well known at this point.

BTW Please folks, use the Ignore feature. It really does make a HUGE difference to the forums. Even if you want to ignore me. Unfortunately it doesn't stop the quoted posts, but when you are able to read posts without the whiteknight stupidity, everything makes more sense - including those able to frame their disagreement to the OP's post in a constructive manner.

Such a shame we can't name them - I have a great list

 

[ArchEmperor]

2.4 - The Content

Could be nice!