Deliberate Ramming

[Goose4291]

Apologizes to all if my comments look a little worked up but I would be lieing if I said they where not, given how long it can take the engineer a ship to perfection is just so much time lost I would leave this game. or at least go find some other game to play and set about gaming the system as best I could, but the other comments Sandro has put out rub me the wrong way for sure... making comments confirming that player killers could be banned is just a pathetic excuse for poor game mechanics.

To at least contribute to this thread I will lay out my idea for how to fix C&P while using what we currently have.

I will start by saying a karma system will never work, it will be gamed far to easy and will result in players we normal kill suffering even more than now.

To "Fix" this C&P system this is how the galaxy should look. In general a MMO style difficulty system.

- 5 Levels of security in total, each system is given a level based on surrounding systems, anything below 2 is classed as lawless.
An example of some systems out flat.

[1][1][2][1][2][1][1][1]
[1][3][3][3][2][1][1][1]
[2][3][4][5][3][4][1][1]
[1][3][4][5][4][5][3][2]
[1][1][4][3][4][3][2][1]
[1][3][2][2][2][3][2][1]
[2][2][1][1][1][2][1][1]


Levels 1 to 2 - Lawless space

These systems allow players to kill each other without consequence, like our current system with lawless systems, further these systems feature increased NPC pirate and murder activity but also offer higher rewards on missions.

Level 3 Lawful space, border systems

System Security Stats:
Security response: Less than 3 sec
Security: Current response load outs with engineered drives.
Amount of ships in response: Current response amount.

These systems have some law and order, killing or attacking players yields a small bounty to the player. if a player is killed then the attacker is no longer allowed to dock in this system for 7 days or until the bounty is wiped(death etc).

This will allow players to attack systems all they like but prevents docking and forces an attack to plan their attack and stage elsewhere promoting some planning and thinking before an attack could take place, if such planning was not taken then the attack would be short lived.

Level 4 and 5 - High security systems

System Security Stats:
Security response time: Instant
Security: Ships with engineered weapons and defenses
Amount of ships in response: Depends on security 4 or 5

These are the systems players like me should be afraid of, killing a player here should result in the attacker being killed or at least made extremely difficult to get away. Failing that the rebuy of the attacker is doubled until they die. should the player get away from the security the system will be locked off for them for 7 days or until the bounty is wiped. We know permit locks work... why not use it here.

This is the safe systems player can use when they would normally use Solo mode, there would still be chance of getting killed as always but your attacker would never in anyway getaway with it. Credits made in these systems would be lower than the other security levels.

Killing players here should be a one way trip to the rebuy screen. Simple as that.

A small UI tweak to add the security level of the system to remind players and warn those in systems they would prefer not to be, such as when traveling.

On a final note: This system is simple enough and black and white enough that it will catch all players no matter if they are murder hobo or small time player killer or trader. this system will ensure safety in core world while offering the true blaze your own trail in system level 3 and down.

I like the idea of varying level of response, but I think security levels should be tied to the controlling BGS faction and its powerplay state.

But thats just me wanting more interconnectivity between the various playstyles :/

You're bang on the nose about the banning of pvpers for engaging in advertised playstyles though

 

[Halifax Gibbet]

I think a much calmer way of approaching this topic is to define what actions are considered unacceptable in ED. Frontier can't get away from their pitch of the game, its worth remembering too that theres solo, pg, blocks, and a load of other things they've done to er discourage certain actions that arent on there approved action list.

In my view the only things I find to be dodgy is going to Eravate in my fully engineered FDL and pwning brand new players just starting off.

Eagling people around stations is pretty cheesy too but there is a simple solution to all of that and I dunno about everyone else but I tend to watch my speed around populated stations. Surely though, thats a good thing?

I'd also say continued player harrassment is not on but then we have solo and pg, which can sort of eliminate someones game time really being ruined, i.e. hours of station camping.

As for the rest of this karma thing, all we seem to be hearing is punishment. Wheres the gameplay for playing as a pirate or scoundrel? I can't help but think that a more fun system would to be to have some sort of eco system, you know where bounty hunters can seek out the pirates etc..

GIVE THIS MAN ALL THE COOKIES

ALL OF THEM

 

[Goose4291]

Until pvpers undermine the ruling faction in the core and make the starting system lawless.

Personally I like that kind of fluidity as it would ad strategy, but I don't think newbies should be started to close to lawless systems so starting systems would have to change to reflect this.

That'd give the 'white knight' player archtypes an excuse to make playing the BGS part of their tools, wouldnt it?

And i cant see many pro pvpers being that obsessive over the BGS.

 

[Halifax Gibbet]

That'd give the 'white knight' player archtypes an excuse to make playing the BGS part of their tools, wouldnt it?

And i cant see many pro pvpers being that obsessive over the BGS.

Up until now PVPers haven't had much reason to play the BGS. Mind you If they start running out of places to dock they'd be forced to. They'd never be totally out of places though because of BGS wars and undermining. They need to tie states into powerplay wars too better than they have to guarantee it though.

 

[Cosmos]

Apologizes to all if my comments look a little worked up but I would be lieing if I said they where not, given how long it can take the engineer a ship to perfection is just so much time lost I would leave this game. or at least go find some other game to play and set about gaming the system as best I could, but the other comments Sandro has put out rub me the wrong way for sure... making comments confirming that player killers could be banned is just a pathetic excuse for poor game mechanics.

To at least contribute to this thread I will lay out my idea for how to fix C&P while using what we currently have.

I will start by saying a karma system will never work, it will be gamed far to easy and will result in players we normal kill suffering even more than now.

To "Fix" this C&P system this is how the galaxy should look. In general a MMO style difficulty system.

- 5 Levels of security in total, each system is given a level based on surrounding systems, anything below 2 is classed as lawless.
An example of some systems out flat.

[1][1][2][1][2][1][1][1]
[1][3][3][3][2][1][1][1]
[2][3][4][5][3][4][1][1]
[1][3][4][5][4][5][3][2]
[1][1][4][3][4][3][2][1]
[1][3][2][2][2][3][2][1]
[2][2][1][1][1][2][1][1]


Levels 1 to 2 - Lawless space

These systems allow players to kill each other without consequence, like our current system with lawless systems, further these systems feature increased NPC pirate and murder activity but also offer higher rewards on missions.

Level 3 Lawful space, border systems

System Security Stats:
Security response: Less than 3 sec
Security: Current response load outs with engineered drives.
Amount of ships in response: Current response amount.

These systems have some law and order, killing or attacking players yields a small bounty to the player. if a player is killed then the attacker is no longer allowed to dock in this system for 7 days or until the bounty is wiped(death etc).

This will allow players to attack systems all they like but prevents docking and forces an attack to plan their attack and stage elsewhere promoting some planning and thinking before an attack could take place, if such planning was not taken then the attack would be short lived.

Level 4 and 5 - High security systems

System Security Stats:
Security response time: Instant
Security: Ships with engineered weapons and defenses
Amount of ships in response: Depends on security 4 or 5

These are the systems players like me should be afraid of, killing a player here should result in the attacker being killed or at least made extremely difficult to get away. Failing that the rebuy of the attacker is doubled until they die. should the player get away from the security the system will be locked off for them for 7 days or until the bounty is wiped. We know permit locks work... why not use it here.

This is the safe systems player can use when they would normally use Solo mode, there would still be chance of getting killed as always but your attacker would never in anyway getaway with it. Credits made in these systems would be lower than the other security levels.

Killing players here should be a one way trip to the rebuy screen. Simple as that.

A small UI tweak to add the security level of the system to remind players and warn those in systems they would prefer not to be, such as when traveling.

On a final note: This system is simple enough and black and white enough that it will catch all players no matter if they are murder hobo or small time player killer or trader. this system will ensure safety in core world while offering the true blaze your own trail in system level 3 and down.

Yeah his comments certainly rubbed me up the wrong way too. What you are suggesting seems not unreasonable, if the system we operated in also related to risk vs reward I'd be fine with that.

For instance, when I played the original we could make a fair profit by staying in safer systems, if we wanted to get rich we had to trade dodgy goods and go to dangerous places where we had to fight our way through, there was no running, we had to kill the attackers before moving on. I've always found it odd that ED never adopted such a risk vs reward system.

Ultimately I feel the proposed karma system Frontier is suggesting is intent upon punishing players for not er, 'behaving', and the obvious flaws and short comings in EDs design.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Apologizes to all if my comments look a little worked up but I would be lieing if I said they where not, given how long it can take the engineer a ship to perfection is just so much time lost I would leave this game. or at least go find some other game to play and set about gaming the system as best I could, but the other comments Sandro has put out rub me the wrong way for sure... making comments confirming that player killers could be banned is just a pathetic excuse for poor game mechanics.

To at least contribute to this thread I will lay out my idea for how to fix C&P while using what we currently have.

I will start by saying a karma system will never work, it will be gamed far to easy and will result in players we normal kill suffering even more than now.

To "Fix" this C&P system this is how the galaxy should look. In general a MMO style difficulty system.

- 5 Levels of security in total, each system is given a level based on surrounding systems, anything below 2 is classed as lawless.
An example of some systems out flat.

[1][1][2][1][2][1][1][1]
[1][3][3][3][2][1][1][1]
[2][3][4][5][3][4][1][1]
[1][3][4][5][4][5][3][2]
[1][1][4][3][4][3][2][1]
[1][3][2][2][2][3][2][1]
[2][2][1][1][1][2][1][1]


Levels 1 to 2 - Lawless space

These systems allow players to kill each other without consequence, like our current system with lawless systems, further these systems feature increased NPC pirate and murder activity but also offer higher rewards on missions.

Level 3 Lawful space, border systems

System Security Stats:
Security response: Less than 3 sec
Security: Current response load outs with engineered drives.
Amount of ships in response: Current response amount.

These systems have some law and order, killing or attacking players yields a small bounty to the player. if a player is killed then the attacker is no longer allowed to dock in this system for 7 days or until the bounty is wiped(death etc).

This will allow players to attack systems all they like but prevents docking and forces an attack to plan their attack and stage elsewhere promoting some planning and thinking before an attack could take place, if such planning was not taken then the attack would be short lived.

Level 4 and 5 - High security systems

System Security Stats:
Security response time: Instant
Security: Ships with engineered weapons and defenses
Amount of ships in response: Depends on security 4 or 5

These are the systems players like me should be afraid of, killing a player here should result in the attacker being killed or at least made extremely difficult to get away. Failing that the rebuy of the attacker is doubled until they die. should the player get away from the security the system will be locked off for them for 7 days or until the bounty is wiped. We know permit locks work... why not use it here.

This is the safe systems player can use when they would normally use Solo mode, there would still be chance of getting killed as always but your attacker would never in anyway getaway with it. Credits made in these systems would be lower than the other security levels.

Killing players here should be a one way trip to the rebuy screen. Simple as that.

A small UI tweak to add the security level of the system to remind players and warn those in systems they would prefer not to be, such as when traveling.

On a final note: This system is simple enough and black and white enough that it will catch all players no matter if they are murder hobo or small time player killer or trader. this system will ensure safety in core world while offering the true blaze your own trail in system level 3 and down.

I like the sound of all of that. +rep.

But I'd still like to address the 'Alien Ruins' scenario, where Frontier puts content invariably in Lawless systems, and you or your pal decides to go out and just indiscriminately murder all the ''scientists' ships. Again, I'm not making a judgment call on that myself - it's just what happened. A fact.

I mean of course you could say "Well they should have a team there protecting them - emergent content!", or "Well why not it's a Lawless system so my play style is valid!", or you could even say "They could play in group or solo!" - all of those are true, and you'd be right. But you know as well as I do that you still managed to create lots of carnage at those sites, as a lot/most of the 'scientists' played in Open because they wanted to meet up with other like-minded 'Science!' types, they didn't have a team out there trying to protect them from murderhobos, either.

So either Frontier actually wants you to keep blowing players up indiscriminately at these types of content, forever, or they don't and that they didn't intend for players to do this at such player hot spots - i.e. Frontier have an idea for the 'spirit of the game'. The intent, as far as I could see, was that the Ancient Ruins were a puzzle to be solved, which involves people going there and solving puzzles - it was not supposed to be intended as a combat zone, for example.

Given that Sandro's answer on the subject of 'spirit of the game' wasn't really answering anything other than your indiscriminate blowing up of people at Ancient Ruins 'can be overall be not so good for the game in the long term', which I thought was a bit weak, and given that I don't foresee you and others stopping this type of behaviour, and given that neither your perfectly good ideas would work at Ancient Ruins sites, nor would Sandro's Karma system either for that matter, it seems to me that either Frontier add this type of puzzle/Ancient Ruin-type content only in safer systems (which would be boring because that'd be in the bubble), or they stop adding Science! content in Lawless systems, meaning that no more of that content could be added in the game.

So with all that in mind, I'm still utterly confused at what Frontier's 'intent' is for this game to be, nor what they want the 'spirit of the game' to be. They either want it to be a 3D Space Shooty Game, or something else. There can be no balance to this in this game when there's an Open 'anything goes' mode, and practically 400 billion Lawless systems in which Frontier add content which can concentrate players who are there not for any type of PvP.

It's all a mess and I iz confused!

 

[Halifax Gibbet]

I like the sound of all of that. +rep.

But I'd still like to address the 'Alien Ruins' scenario, where Frontier puts content invariably in Lawless systems, and you or your pal decides to go out and just indiscriminately murder all the ''scientists' ships. Again, I'm not making a judgment call on that myself - it's just what happened. A fact.

I mean of course you could say "Well they should have a team there protecting them - emergent content!", or "Well why not it's a Lawless system so my play style is valid!", or you could even say "They could play in group or solo!" - all of those are true, and you'd be right. But you know as well as I do that you still managed to create lots of carnage at those sites, as a lot/most of the 'scientists' played in Open because they wanted to meet up with other like-minded 'Science!' types, they didn't have a team out there trying to protect them from murderhobos, either.

So either Frontier actually wants you to keep blowing players up indiscriminately at these types of content, forever, or they don't and that they didn't intend for players to do this at such player hot spots - i.e. Frontier have an idea for the 'spirit of the game'. The intent, as far as I could see, was that the Ancient Ruins were a puzzle to be solved, which involves people going there and solving puzzles - it was not supposed to be intended as a combat zone, for example.

Given that Sandro's answer on the subject of 'spirit of the game' wasn't really answering anything other than your indiscriminate blowing up of people at Ancient Ruins 'can be overall be not so good for the game in the long term', which I thought was a bit weak, and given that I don't foresee you and others stopping this type of behaviour, and given that neither your perfectly good ideas would work at Ancient Ruins sites, nor would Sandro's Karma system either for that matter, it seems to me that either Frontier add this type of puzzle/Ancient Ruin-type content only in safer systems (which would be boring because that'd be in the bubble), or they stop adding Science! content in Lawless systems, meaning that no more of that content could be added in the game.

So with all that in mind, I'm still utterly confused at what Frontier's 'intent' is for this game to be, nor what they want the 'spirit of the game' to be. They either want it to be a 3D Space Shooty Game, or something else. There can be no balance to this in this game when there's an Open 'anything goes' mode, and practically 400 billion Lawless systems in which Frontier add content which can concentrate players who are there not for any type of PvP.

It's all a mess and I iz confused!

Frontier seem to have issues with meshing mechanics and separate players together.

On your remarks about ruins and alien POI's and such....

Getting military research vessels and armed NPC explorers to ruins that respond to weapons fire much the way police and civvies do in REZ's would work. The existing system is there you just don't apply the bounty.

 

[Cosmos]

I like the sound of all of that. +rep.

But I'd still like to address the 'Alien Ruins' scenario, where Frontier puts content invariably in Lawless systems, and you or your pal decides to go out and just indiscriminately murder all the ''scientists' ships. Again, I'm not making a judgment call on that myself - it's just what happened. A fact.

I mean of course you could say "Well they should have a team there protecting them - emergent content!", or "Well why not it's a Lawless system so my play style is valid!", or you could even say "They could play in group or solo!" - all of those are true, and you'd be right. But you know as well as I do that you still managed to create lots of carnage at those sites, as a lot/most of the 'scientists' played in Open because they wanted to meet up with other like-minded 'Science!' types, they didn't have a team out there trying to protect them from murderhobos, either.

So either Frontier actually wants you to keep blowing players up indiscriminately at these types of content, forever, or they don't and that they didn't intend for players to do this at such player hot spots - i.e. Frontier have an idea for the 'spirit of the game'. The intent, as far as I could see, was that the Ancient Ruins were a puzzle to be solved, which involves people going there and solving puzzles - it was not supposed to be intended as a combat zone, for example.

Given that Sandro's answer on the subject of 'spirit of the game' wasn't really answering anything other than your indiscriminate blowing up of people at Ancient Ruins 'can be overall be not so good for the game in the long term', which I thought was a bit weak, and given that I don't foresee you and others stopping this type of behaviour, and given that neither your perfectly good ideas would work at Ancient Ruins sites, nor would Sandro's Karma system either for that matter, it seems to me that either Frontier add this type of puzzle/Ancient Ruin-type content only in safer systems (which would be boring because that'd be in the bubble), or they stop adding Science! content in Lawless systems, meaning that no more of that content could be added in the game.

So with all that in mind, I'm still utterly confused at what Frontier's 'intent' is for this game to be, nor what they want the 'spirit of the game' to be. They either want it to be a 3D Space Shooty Game, or something else. There can be no balance to this in this game when there's an Open 'anything goes' mode, and practically 400 billion Lawless systems in which Frontier add content which can concentrate players who are there not for any type of PvP.

It's all a mess and I iz confused!

You call it murder but we were in fact protecting the ruins as a cultural heritage site. The real crime was letting all and sundry rally round the place, tyre tracks and discarded soda cans left everywhere, and ancient relics used for SRV football. [haha]

I'm just kidding.. That said there is nothing wrong with doing science in an armor plated killing machine. Perhaps the problem is most of the game is just too easy and pacified, folks wonder off with no shields and no weapons into anarchy space and expect everyone to sing kumbaya around the campfire.? Wasnt ever really going to happen, particularly since we are all armed to the teeth.

 

[Arguendo]

Apologizes to all if my comments look a little worked up but I would be lieing if I said they where not, given how long it can take the engineer a ship to perfection is just so much time lost I would leave this game. or at least go find some other game to play and set about gaming the system as best I could, but the other comments Sandro has put out rub me the wrong way for sure... making comments confirming that player killers could be banned is just a pathetic excuse for poor game mechanics.

These things I can completely stand behind. Playing the game within the game mechanics should never be a bannable offense! That should be reserved for those who cheat, be that hacking, continually disconnecting when threatened, etc. Also, there needs to be a rebuy for the ships because of the Engineers. Going all the way up to full price for all I care, but never a chance of not being able to buy it back.

Security response: Less than 3 sec
Security: Current response load outs with engineered drives.
Amount of ships in response: Current response amount.

This does not make sense for anyone playing 2.X. Unengineered NPCs are woefully inadequate, especially with the current level of response. I've seen videos of 6 NPCs shooting at a player, and they dont make a dent in a properly Engineered ship.

Killing players here should be a one way trip to the rebuy screen. Simple as that.

And this is a bit overboard the other way again.

I like your scaling and placement of different security states, but I think you're going a bit too black/white. I believe it should be possible to kill another player in a High Sec system without seeing an instant rebuy, but it shouldn't be possible to do it repeatedly without either having to leave or die. Imo security response should scale depending on the amount of crime being done, not just Clean or Wanted. This is where some form of Karma/Reputation system needs to be implemented. A system that would scale to just the local system at first, and then spread out to adjoining systems that have the same Major Power and/or where the Controlling Minor Faction is present and/or in control, if crimes where repeated extensively, would make sense.

A short version of three major points for a new system I would like to see are:
1. Get rid of the Suicidewinder mechanic. This is priority 1 imho.
2. A security response that scales with Security State and amount of crime committed.
3. An increased rebuy % that scales with amount of crime committed.

 

[Halifax Gibbet]

You call it murder but we were in fact protecting the ruins as a cultural heritage site. The real crime was letting all and sundry rally round the place, tire tracks left everywhere, and use ancient relics for SRV football. [haha]

I'm just kidding.. That said there is nothing wrong with doing science in an armor plated killing machine. Perhaps the problem is most of the game is just too easy and pacified, folks wonder off with no shields and no weapons into anarchy space and expect everyone to sing kumbaya around the campfire.? Wasnt ever really going to happen, particularly since we are all armed to the teeth.

Like the military don't ever do serious science...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-rWnQphPdQ

 

[Nevada]

Hello Commander nrage!

Discerning naughty from undesirable would really be such a system's prime function.

so, to spitball a little, here are some potential examples:

* Attacking a wanted ship, no matter how overpowered you were compared to it, would be fine
* Attacking a clean ship when massively overpowered would get minor bad karma
* Repeatedly attacking clean ships that you massively overpowered would get you major bad karma
* Stealing cargo from a clean ship would be fine.
* Being involved in an occasional starport collision would gain you minor bad karma
* Being repeatedly involved in starport collisions over time would get you major bad karma
* Occasionally disconnecting ungracefully in danger would be fine
* Repeatedly disconnecting ungracefully in danger over time would get you major bad karma
* Attacking starports as crew would get you major bad karma

This sort of thing.

Such a system might not be perfectly right in very instance, but punitive measures would increase based on trends over time, which in the end become fairly accurate indicators of intent.

In general, we want to minimise out of game intervention. However, that does not mean that punitive measures would be toothless. We could make life *very* challenging, in ways we currently have not employed, for repeat offenders.

But please remember, as of this moment, this is just discussion, and although we have very positive vibes, there's currently no ETA or guarantee for such a system's arrival.

How about karma/fame system from example Ultima Online ?

 

[Arguendo]

That'd give the 'white knight' player archtypes an excuse to make playing the BGS part of their tools, wouldnt it?

And i cant see many pro pvpers being that obsessive over the BGS.

And out come the cries about how "They shouldn't be able to do that in anything but Open!"

 

[besieger]

I like the sound of all of that. +rep.

But I'd still like to address the 'Alien Ruins' scenario, where Frontier puts content invariably in Lawless systems, and you or your pal decides to go out and just indiscriminately murder all the ''scientists' ships. Again, I'm not making a judgment call on that myself - it's just what happened. A fact.

I mean of course you could say "Well they should have a team there protecting them - emergent content!", or "Well why not it's a Lawless system so my play style is valid!", or you could even say "They could play in group or solo!" - all of those are true, and you'd be right. But you know as well as I do that you still managed to create lots of carnage at those sites, as a lot/most of the 'scientists' played in Open because they wanted to meet up with other like-minded 'Science!' types, they didn't have a team out there trying to protect them from murderhobos, either.

So either Frontier actually wants you to keep blowing players up indiscriminately at these types of content, forever, or they don't and that they didn't intend for players to do this at such player hot spots - i.e. Frontier have an idea for the 'spirit of the game'. The intent, as far as I could see, was that the Ancient Ruins were a puzzle to be solved, which involves people going there and solving puzzles - it was not supposed to be intended as a combat zone, for example.

Given that Sandro's answer on the subject of 'spirit of the game' wasn't really answering anything other than your indiscriminate blowing up of people at Ancient Ruins 'can be overall be not so good for the game in the long term', which I thought was a bit weak, and given that I don't foresee you and others stopping this type of behaviour, and given that neither your perfectly good ideas would work at Ancient Ruins sites, nor would Sandro's Karma system either for that matter, it seems to me that either Frontier add this type of puzzle/Ancient Ruin-type content only in safer systems (which would be boring because that'd be in the bubble), or they stop adding Science! content in Lawless systems, meaning that no more of that content could be added in the game.

So with all that in mind, I'm still utterly confused at what Frontier's 'intent' is for this game to be, nor what they want the 'spirit of the game' to be. They either want it to be a 3D Space Shooty Game, or something else. There can be no balance to this in this game when there's an Open 'anything goes' mode, and practically 400 billion Lawless systems in which Frontier add content which can concentrate players who are there not for any type of PvP.

It's all a mess and I iz confused!

The issue with that is even with frontiers remove ships from all PVPers Lawless systems would still be open to the current state of things... I think at that point frontier should look at ship balance and how the gap between a pure combat ship is vs a general purpose ship is. personally I think the gap is too large.

 

[Reav]

Loosing your entire ship is far too much, if you were talking a few hours game play and you were back where you were that would be fine but we are talking 400million credits and the massive engineer grind on top of that which can equate to a persons entire game time.
For me that would be about 600+ hours played and that is not even talking about a fully specced up ship.
I am sure for some people it goes beyond into 1000+ hours.

This may be speculative but a game dev talking of removing some one from the game like that is pretty extreme, I am all for punishment, made my own thread on the issue with an unpopular idea of a jail system, people were complaining a jail system is too harsh as it removes you from the game for a few hours yet the developer is talking of removing you permanently if you have killed enough sidewinders? Wow.

 

[Kyokushin]

* It would very likely *only* apply to interactions with other players in most cases

In what artificial life is worse than organical?
There was a times where one people though their life is worth more than others, and i though these times are the past... and we are living in the progressive society.

Every single action of player against NPC and other players should works the same way.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My suggestion to crime and punish system:

High security systems/areas - in these areas security response should be so hard as station responce. Griefing and pirating just impossible
Medium security - griefing and pirating possible but hard and smart
low security - griefing and pirating possible, but with security response, lucrative routes or missions
anarchy - no security, your flying at your own risk, but very lucrative
trade routes or missions, up to 70% more than in high security

As a punish should not only be INEVITABLE ship destruction of a griefer or pirate, but also things like
- revoke FSD permit to the system
- limited access to the some Engineers (some of them may be against criminal)
- limited access to outfit and shipyard

In a conclusion - there should be a safe areas and routes where players can feel totally safe. Safety should not be regulated as PvP yes/no
switch, but by a in-game law and strong and fast response of security forces.

A player who commited many crimes should have temporary (week? two? month?) very annoying gameplay in high security systems. He should be interdicted instantly by very stron police, he should just be forced do widthrawn from the system and play in anarchy systems or low security

This player should also work out his return to the community. He should do donation missions, passenger mission and other 'peaceful' activities. If not - then he will stay fugitive and his gameplay in 'civilised' region of space will be extremely difficult

 

[Reav]

Ok this line of comments with you just proves you do not play this game to any degree... if you had even any idea you would know removing a players ship post engineers would be crazy. you make this game so difficult to enjoy already now you intend to remove PVP due to poor design decisions made by you and your team. its a constant stream of mistakes, Multi-crew(No benefit or reason to use), Power Play, Planet Landings(devoid of content), Drip feeding the story, Unbalanced PVP, Broken system reported moths ago. I could go on... Player retention is already at an all time low due to poor social mechanics that make the game difficult to get into.

Here is some example of how to fix your C&P system for station ramming right off the bat.

Make ships using a docking computer immune to speeding rules as the play is not in control, Player not using a docking computer who speed is their own fault if they crash or hit any other ship. there simple and fixed.

Increase rebuys by all means to prevent a player from killing clean ships, but for the love of god DO NOT remove ships from players... you know we will only use this to game the system and turn it against you. as with everything you and your team poorly design and implement.


Of note though, sorry for being harsh but the truth is harsh. I love this game and don't want to see it turn into a wasteland of who can grief who harder. o7

100% agree with this.

100%.

Removing ones ship is removing some one from the game, if you really don't want any pvpers here how about you straight up just say that or better yet remove PVP damage from the game.
There are 1000s of better ideas for promoting a more fair CNP.
This is just insane.

I've had really bad run in's with devs in the past regarding the control of ''''''griefing'''''' where they basically removed PVP from the game to stop the complaints of the minority extreme carebears.
If that is your intention sandro and you just want to prevent PVP outside of gentleman's duels then stand up and say it.
I'll pack me bags and move on, to the applause of a few bears and to be followed by the majority of your ''hard core''(anybody who pvps with an end game ship) playerbase.


Hell, you could do what Black desert did, BDO had a similar situation to the elite rebuy system. You lost your exp. Now, you can only lose your exp in PVE and in PVP you loose nothing apart from your time.
Why not instead of well REMOVING a pvp player why not just stop the punishment of players in general when its a player - player action?
Bah.
I am at a loss seriously.

RIP your game man if this goes through. RIP.
If you think that is a baseless threat, research Age of conan and the initial reason for the exodus.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

You just may wrote 'you know who'.

Too much Harry Potter for my liking. *wink*

Anyway - back on topic...

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Hello Commanders!

Some thoughts.

Most of the issues we are aware of with ramming are malicious attempts rather than accidents.

The docking computer is meant to confer immunity from prosecution because we know for a fact that it does not have malicious intent.

The challenge with players is that we can never know intent, which is why we have to rely on quite blunt mechanisms that do not give benefit of the doubt (i.e. no crimes for collisions under 100 m/s, always a crime for speeds above, the reason being that it's extremely difficult to cause damage to ships flying below this speed). This is why we never want to assign blame to a Commander using a docking computer when they collide with another Commander's ship; we can never know how much the other Commander might have been to blame.

In addition, we feel that verisimilitude has its limits. Just because in real life a pilot might be responsible for their craft when using autopilot does not mean we want to emulate this in the game.

Also, I'll have to re-check the docking computer: it really should only engage if throttled down *and* going very slowly.

Looking to the future, if/when we get to add a karma system (no ETA, no guarantee) it will allow us to add another layer of finesse to the thorny issue of ramming accountability. Such a system will allow us to track trends over time. An honest Commander who has the occasional mishap will trend very differently to a malicious serial rammer intent on farming salt. We will be able to use this trend tracking (hopefully) even for slow speed collisions, so malicious "grind-rammers" should start to stand out and be punished appropriately.

Hiya Sandro. When you add a Karma system, will it apply to crimes against NPC's as well as Commanders? I always thought it would be nice for players of a criminal bent to have a notoriety that precedes them long after any bounties have expired.....whether those crimes are committed against human or AI.

 

[Cosmos]

100% agree with this.

100%.

Removing ones ship is removing some one from the game, if you really don't want any pvpers here how about you straight up just say that or better yet remove PVP damage from the game.
There are 1000s of better ideas for promoting a more fair CNP.
This is just insane.

I've had really bad run in's with devs in the past regarding the control of ''''''griefing'''''' where they basically removed PVP from the game to stop the complaints of the minority extreme carebears.
If that is your intention sandro and you just want to prevent PVP outside of gentleman's duels then stand up and say it.
I'll pack me bags and move on, to the applause of a few bears and to be followed by the majority of your ''hard core''(anybody who pvps with an end game ship) playerbase.


Hell, you could do what Black desert did, BDO had a similar situation to the elite rebuy system. You lost your exp. Now, you can only lose your exp in PVE and in PVP you loose nothing apart from your time.
Why not instead of well REMOVING a pvp player why not just stop the punishment of players in general when its a player - player action?
Bah.
I am at a loss seriously.

RIP your game man if this goes through. RIP.
If you think that is a baseless threat, research Age of conan and the initial reason for the exodus.

I'm trying to imagine this game without any PvP..

[video=youtube_share;nGA-GCq7JWM]https://youtu.be/nGA-GCq7JWM[/video]

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Hello Commander Sole Hunter!

Let me be as clear as I can, I think perhaps I am not articulating the concept well enough.

* Our karma system would work by tracking *trends* over time. You would never perform a single action and get dropped down to the lowest rating. It tracks intent by building up a picture over time.

* It would very likely *only* apply to interactions with other players in most cases, so it would not interfere much with the rest of the game.

* Importantly, for combat encounters, it would a) only apply to criminal attacks, b) use as detailed and as comprehensive metrics as possible for determining relative ship powers, taking into account ship hull, load out, engineered upgrades and pilot rating, and only activate when there was a large disparity.

I guess, in response, do you feel it's completely fine for powerful ships to be able to wantonly destroy new players, for example?

Hello Commanders besieger, Jukelo and others!

Regarding the possibility that such measures might act as an incentive: it's an interesting point.

In response I would suggest that if the measures did do that then with the system in place it would be more likely that we could swap in measures that in no way could be seen as good things (such as shadow bans).

There's also the argument that it's not that we necessarily want to prevent Commanders from playing how they want, more that we want appropriate consequences for such actions.

Ah, OK, so Karma is only for PvP. So will you consider, as part of a C&P overhaul, a system where you gain a notoriety for past crimes committed within a jurisdiction.....even after the bounty has run out......whether those crimes are committed against an NPC or a human? I always liked the idea of a commander being seen as "the scourge of the Empire", or some such. In practical terms it should also impact your interactions with factions affiliated to the super power that you have the criminal reputation.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm trying to imagine this game without any PvP..

https://youtu.be/nGA-GCq7JWM

I don't think anyone is talking about removing PvP from the game.....though I do want to see them ramp up the PvE side of the game