Deliberate Ramming

[Truesilver]

thats the one thing that winds me up about this most of all, sandros already dreaming up a parallel system when he couldn't get the last one to work. Like powerplay and the BGS, both are practically the same thing lore wise but they dont really tie in.

Short attention spans seems to be an issue, nothing ever gets finished before something new is unveiled that is equally ineffective or superfluous.

The bounty system reform is the way to go, some of the stuff you do should carry the risk of being put back to a sidey, but those risks should be much more global. If the bounty on your head was worth the risk, and the tools were there to find you I'd hunt you, I'd likely lose but someone would get you eventually and all those fines would have to be paid before you could rebuy.

I think the point being made here ^^ about the wisdom of coming up with a new, parallel karma system is a very important one. We already have a bounty system and we already have quite a sophisticated reputation system.

I really hope that Frontier will take a decent stab at making the existing systems work before attempting to add a potentially hideously complex new overlay.

Examples of how the existing systems could be improved and utilised:

- Make all players members of the Pilots Federation NPC minor faction for rep purposes so that if you kill one (Powerplay/Wanted/Anarchies excepted), your Pilots Federation rep reduces (possibly eventually locking you out of Jameson for a while, if you don't pay your dues by running missions etc)

- Restore superpower-wide bounties

- Implement Pilots Federation galaxy-wide bounties

- Close sidey-splat bounty wiping

- Give us fully RNGineered NPC bounty hunters that track us down

- Allow Cmdrs to join other NPC minor factions for rep purposes, e.g., if an Imperial player is a member of the Emperors Grace minor faction, killing him would reduce my rep with them. This would be in addition to the automatic Pilots Federation membership

- Consider allowing Cmdrs to join superpower major factions for rep purposes, e.g. if I kill an Alliance guy my rep across the whole Alliance reduces

- Tie in the NPC bounty hunting closely with a combination of bounty level and rep level, in terms of aggression, numbers, frequency and power

Obviously the above is very much just thinking out loud and feel free to tear it to shreds...!

But the important point is this: I really hope Frontier does not take one single step towards making a completely new, complex, parallel karma system until they have explored to the full what can be achieved with the bounty and reputation systems that they have already made.

I hope we get a full Beta on that latter part.

 

[Javert]

A Karma system, as I understand it at least, would be a system to track the ongoing reputation of the player character in the game, and would persist through ship destruction.

The bounty system does not persist through ship destruction, which means its effectiveness is is severely limited if you are trying to create meaningful consequences for the worst excesses of particular play styles. Making bounties persist without adding something else as a factor is not viable because it is exploitable to farm credits. This has arguably been made worse when the bounty system was made entirely system specific instead of being across a major faction which was previously the case.

This would basically give the game engine an indication of "Is this player normally a law abiding peaceful player, or is this player a consistent murder hobo, or something on the spectrum in between" - you can then contemplate all sorts of game effects based on that information.

I think Sandro also indicated that:
- The Karma system might not be visible or fully visible to the player - in other words it wouldn't necessarily be a bar like your trade rank bar.
- It would be just one part of a C&P overhaul if and when that happens.

I also agree with others who've said that FD seems to want to shift more players into open mode. If they didn't, there's actually a clear argument to do nothing - as long as solo and PG modes exist, they could just argue that the solution for players who don't like being ganked is to go into solo or PG - job done. If they are now coming out raising this as a concern, it seems like they want to encourage more open play.

 

[Robert Maynard]

A Karma system, as I understand it at least, would be a system to track the ongoing reputation of the player character in the game, and would persist through ship destruction.

.... I'd hope that it would persist through CMDR reset too.

 

[Quineloe]

this can be deleted

 

[Quineloe]

Hell Commander besieger!

As we're speaking hypothetically here, we would want to avoid shadow banning where possible. As an example, for a Commander that repeatedly killed clean ships that were significantly weaker than them, I'd rather see a removal of insurance cover (so when a ship is destroyed it's gone, or you have to pay the full price to get it back), docking privileges rescinded at all starports and outposts except those in anarchy jurisdictions and game applied Pilot Federation bounties rather than a shadow ban.

Of course, we'd always reserve the right to apply out of game measures if we felt they were justified.

Make sure to make players who have reached this level very distinguished from other players. Maybe replace their legal status with a flat "Outlaw", so those who only see this game as a player killer sim can also wear it as a badge of honour and everyone who does not have it isn't really in the cool kid's club.

This isn't sarcasm, I honestly believe this to be the best change to the player community mechanics you've ever considered. I hope that makes it in.

So basically, I lose my ship that I spent hundreds of hours to create because I decided to play a murder hobo? Are you just trying to add more grind to my current grind? engineers takes a long time you know, if you like played your own game that is...

OOoooooh I have waited a long time for this....


DEAR PLAYER KILLER

Don't fly what you can't afford to lose.

Wow this thread really became a sea of salt of mass murderers who feel threatened by consequences to their style of gameplay after that post

Who accuse the "Carebears" of the same thing: crying, crying and crying. Now it is they who cry incessantly about no longer being able to murder dozens of players per hour with zero consequences?

Oh boy!

 

[imski]

OOoooooh I have waited a long time for this....


DEAR PLAYER KILLER

Don't fly what you can't afford to lose.

Wow this thread really became a sea of salt of mass murderers who feel threatened by consequences to their style of gameplay after that post

Who accuse the "Carebears" of the same thing: crying, crying and crying. Now it is they who cry incessantly about no longer being able to murder dozens of players per hour with zero consequences?

Oh boy!

The disconnect from some telling everyone else to fly with weapons and shields everywhere and to "git gud" whilst also complaining that nothing should be allowed to change the fact that they want to be able to attack anyone with impunity without having to modify their ships or behaviour at all is quite telling.

 

[Halifax Gibbet]

Came across this thread by accident and now realise it's one of the most important ED discussions in months.

Please don't close this thread until many more get to read it and add their comments (myself included). Or perhaps transfer it to a new thread with a more appropriate title?

(now it looks like I have an hour or two of reading...)

Agreed, The risk of other humans is a large part of what separated elite from say X3tc which has a much better build and trade system. They need to get this right, esp with citizen looming and egosoft announcing X4.

Frontier need to get this right

- - - Updated - - -

Well, on face value sure, but it can be looked at a different way. If a griefer's griefing causes an undesirable affect/makes them a desirable target, you'll get others who might otherwise be griefing going after them instead. Like thieves stealing from thieves. Sure they're still stealing... but hey.

Said it better than I could, but this is the kind of thing we're talking about, anytime they find themselves in a fight they didn't prepare for and didn't expect they cry foul.

NPCs don't matter because they're easy to fight and even easier to avoid they may as well not be there even though some of them are programmed to be murder hobos themselves. Now again I dont like that behaviour much, but I do want people to be able to gain notoriety as a criminal or a villain largely because I imagined myself to be the one to bring them to book when I paid into the game.

What a fool I was......

 

[Reav]

.... I'd hope that it would persist through CMDR reset too.

Hah and why do you say that? Seems you have some serious issues regarding being killed in a game.

Don't worry man I've got the perfect solution and its already in game!
Solo and group play.

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

Interesting thread.

Whilst I'd say a Karma system is a good idea, ship strength should play absolutely no role in it as it's completely unrelated to question if an attack was warranted or not.
Moreover, the current C&P system could be adapted to be sufficient.

- Bounties should be major faction wide with real consequences.
- No landing permissions for wanted players.
- All respective stations fire on sight, no scan required.
- No insurance payout for wanted ships.
- No repercussions for attacking a ship wanted by the controlling authority or hostile PP ships in a friendly controlled PP system. Suffice to say no consequences in anarchy systems.

The latter is the most important bit: Is the attack legit or not? Except against wanted or hostile PP vessels, none is in high sec. Ship size/strength is absolutely unrelated to the question of guilt and hence shouldn't play any role at all.

Considering combat logging, I don't deem it a problem. In the current standard 'pvp' scenario where multiple gankers attack ships without any legit reason, it should go unpunished as the agressor lost nothing.
If the target was wanted, the ship counts as destroyed on disconnect. No insurance payout, attacker gets the bounty. This covers the problem with aggressors combat logging as they already have a bounty for attacking.

Bounties:

If a non-legit attack occurs, the aggressor will receive a bounty equal to the victims ship cost, regardless if the attack was successful or not.
Bounties can either be paid after a certain while just as it is now, but ship destruction should not clear bounties.
If a bounty was claimed, the bounty hunter gets the value of the killed ship and that value is deducted from the bounty.

Gank a 400 mill Cutter with your friends? Fine, but if you want to clear your debt using a freewinder, better have your friends shoot you because collisions and self-destruction don't count - and have them shoot you 13000 times.

 

[Halifax Gibbet]

Plus a PK'er would have to repeatedly kill weaker ships to be affected whereas explorers already instantly loose all their data be it weeks or months worth. The upshot is the lose of the PK'ers ship is actually at the expense of years worth of exploration, 1000's of tons of cargo and many millions, possibly billions in rebuy cost.

And all those days/weeks/months/years of other players game time wasted is bound to drive people away.

I'm of the opinion explorers should get to keep their Data on destruction, on condition of completing a black box recovery mission to the system they were destroyed in. The griefer may wait around, but the explorer has the option to come back with friends and armed to the teeth, or someone else can take the job for a fee set by the explorer

Problem is there isnt much to do together than shoot at stuff, I can understand frontier not wanting gold farmers but hobbling the game just to prevent them seems very self defeating, a report and block would be grand.

I wouldn't mind trading engineered weapons either, or getting paid vas amounts for running C3 beams to colonia.

Elite is already quite restrictive

 

[Robert Maynard]

Hah and why do you say that? Seems you have some serious issues regarding being killed in a game.

Why should a player be permitted to escape a poor karma rating and wipe the slate clean in seconds?

Don't worry man I've got the perfect solution and its already in game!
Solo and group play.

As Sandro says:

We want to try our hardest to let Commanders enjoy the game how they want to. However, and it's a big however: Open is a shared game space that we want as many folk to enjoy as possible. We have to decide what is best for the greater good when there are conflicts of interest between Commanders. Just because there are Private Group and Solo mode, does not necessarily mean that Open should be without codes of conduct.

 

[VR StarLightPL]

Why reinvent the wheel? There are examples out there of how it could be done. This is one of them: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Karma_(Fallout_3) . It contains an example of how your actions bring you both advantages and disadvantages and affect the game you're playing. I've outlined what it could be in Elite in a previous post which has drowned in this thread so I will repeat it every few pages hoping that it sparks some discussion which will in turn at least make Sandro read it. Basically what I outlined would add a good chunk of the sooo desired mythical DEPTH to the whole game, causing you to reconsider which missions you take or what do you do, because your actions will suddenly matter in the long run, not just in the moment.

Also I think we're scratching the outside symptoms not realising what is the real cause of the problem. And IMHO the cause of the problem is that the killed player loses way much more than the killer, while also they are both (the victim and the killer) not gaining anything from that encounter, making it meaningless. And of course this also isn't exactly new - I've written about it in detail after open livestream. It is also semi-tied to the pace we can re-earn the rebuy, and IMHO its also the cause of combat logging.

Last but not least, I think we should differentiate two things - using trendspotting (karma) as a measure to various decisions (like deciding if somebody is a grieframmer or a logger), and using karma as a gauge of your actions towards certain roleplay. In short, combat logging has nothing to do with someone being good or evil, only a poor game player (and against TOS). Griefwinders however, do it on purpose and it should contribute to their overall "evil" status. So there is a delicate line here.

Now knowing nobody will click these links because they will be lost in this thread, I'm providing spoiler quotes:

Post 1 - Karma as a career path:

Spoiler

Hello CMDR FDEV Beige Cowboy!

As I have feared, this is turning into some "make players great again" system. As in "crime" and "punishment", "consequences" blah blah blah. While the trend measuring system in itself is neither bad, nor good in its essence, all I see discussed is punishment, ramifications, and otherwise restraining the so-called "griefers" AND NOT REWARDING VALID GAMEPLAY.

Why not make karma a career path?

Exactly. Why isn't a criminal career a viable way to "blaze your trail"? There should be PERKS for BOTH sides of the equation. Let's take a hypothetical Carebear and a Ganker and drop them into instance. What happens? Ganker kills Carebear, of course. But what happens then? Well... It may be that this particular Carebear in his carebearing ways made lots of friends (high positive karma), among them some insurance companies who give him discounts on rebuys (just an example, don't get overattached to it). So, the gank sting would be greatly reduced. Also, the loss would be manageable, because with so many friends there are discounts and good missions everywhere, faction rep with lawful factions is gained faster because Carebear is trustworthy, model citizen... Maybe cargo insurance? Who knows. Or maybe a panic button for next time which will send yuuuge reinforcements of system security to the crime scene almost as soon as first shots are fired? Imagine someone like Dalai Lama, Pope or similar attacked, or a beloved pop-star... Even bystanders would help (and be rewarded perhaps). And the downsides? Well... if a Carebear wanders out to dangerous systems (anarchy, low sec) he could even be "highlighted" as a high value target for piracy or murder (think bounties on someone's head, only issued by a rivalling faction than he is allied with perhaps) and suffer more interdictions that way...

Now that we have covered the Carebear side, lets turn to the dark side of the force - the Ganker. Why did he do it? Why did he kill the poor unarmed Carebear in paper thin ship? Well, the answer is simple. Because he COULD. Crime lords do not ask for "pvp consent" (bahahahaha, still can't say that with straight face), sorry. And this kill, being a 100th one, has granted him a criminal rank of master. In which he gained access to the black market to BUY things from (another perk example you shouldn't be overly attached to). Yes, he will be hunted. Yes he will need to choose systems carefully, and avoid hi-sec because he could even lose his ship permanently in there. But anarchy and low sec - oh boy, they are totally different matter. For example in anarchy he can call in some henchmen (the scum of the galaxy, just like him). Low sec with bribery he can make low paid sysdef force to turn a blind eye. Perhaps he even does get info about some targets [cmdrs, npcs] doing lucrative (as in to pirate) cargo runs. As in - Yuri Nakamura will be transporting valuable data from 46 Eridani to Tionisla system, intercept before he reaches Tionisla, because we know somebody who would pay millions for that data (or for it to be lost, whatever). From criminal or shady factions which he of course gains rep faster with (as opposed to lawful).

The point I am getting at is - currently we don't get rewarded for playing "in character".

Capo di tutti capi doesn't ask for "pvp consent". He just shoots people in the face, with constant threat of the law forces catching up, but he lives an exciting (albeit often short) life. A lawful entrepreneur which has stellar reputation also lives a rich life with people helping him along the way but can be a victim of the aforementioned mafioso or his goons. The circle of life, almost ;-)

Now that is what a proper karma system could be used for. Tracking the roleplay percentage and awarding perks and hindrances according to behaviour, fairly on both sides of the equation. Of course the perks and hindrances have to be different for both career choices (as in the game should not force you to either path), but that's implementation details which I leave to Sandro Sammarco to work out.

Post 2 - Invested time vs risk imbalance - karma proposal:

Spoiler

As with all PvP threads, also this one derails into extremities nuking the hell out of PvPers (you may call them griefers but they are just playing the game and do so by the rules). And I say that as a PvEr which had his... hat handed to him on a few occassions. But all of these responses and reaction boil down to one, simple problem:

Invested Playtime vs Risk imbalance



The attacker risk is a very small one:

• 6400Cr bounty

while the destroyed trader/PvEr:

• faces a multi-million Cr rebuy if he's in a decent ship
• loses the value of cargo
• loses haulage profits and has possible fines slapped on him for that(!)

This disproportionate punishment will convert to a significant loss of the most precious commodity a player can have: HIS PLAYTIME (because that loss has to be earned back). Given Sandro's "peculiar" view of cargo insurance as in "lack of it is part of the 'fun' ", this imbalance is the most striking with regards to murdering random people in PvP.

Now if it were like hiciacit suggested, that if you get killed "unlawfully" (clean in the system and not powerplay hostile) then some (maybe not 100%) rebuy is "covered" by the Pilots Federation, and that cost goes on the bounty of the attacker - it would help a bit, because now it would be somehow less harsh for PvErs (still no cargo insurance though, thanks Sandro for the added "fun") in opposition as what we have currently: a trader/hauler gets ganked and that's only the beginning of his problems, while the attacker gets a meager 6400Cr bounty. I also like the idea of having no suicidewinder possibility. The bounty should stay for the intended "punishment" time, unless its rightfully claimed and deducted from the attacker's credits on rebuy screen.

But now as we upped the ante for the attacker lets look at the problem the other way around. What about the attacker's profit?

A criminal should PROFIT more from criminal activities, be it attacking ships or making other kinds of mischief like smuggling or causing infavourable BGS states for a particular faction / station. Currently there is not much of an incentive for doing that, besides the thrill of a fight (which an experienced PvPer will win in seconds). You all talk about "ganker punishment" and (almost) nobody is taking both sides into account (as they are both VIABLE and FAIR gameplay). And criminals in the real world tend to lead luxurious lives with a good portion of added risk. Which leads me too:

The karma system

I think if we get a decent karma system, there will be rewards for both sides of the equation and the disproportionate consequences between the victim and the attacker will blur. Better paying and EXCLUSIVE TRADE MISSIONS for the traders if their rep/karma/success to failure ratio is stellar, and dangerous and rewarding EXCLUSIVE CRIMINAL MISSIONS for the more evil of us. Maybe missions should be divided into lawful, shady and outright criminal ones and get walled by your karma status (i.e. you won't see that lucrative biowaste hauling mission from sothis for a 1,5M / t [yum] as a die hard criminal, but you will see the similarly lucrative mission of killing 30 innocent trader ships in said sothis for a very good payout [yum]).

Borderline illegal missions (smuggling) or legal skirmishes (massacre other faction's ships in a CZ) should be available to everyone. The types of missions you take as well as your actions (i.e. selling commodities vs selling things on black market) should affect your karma status, as well as revealed criminal actions (scanned and fined for smuggling, getting a bounty, getting a ticket etc). If you can get away with that, then probably not. But that's implementation details.

PS: As a sidenote the legal status of things scooped from space or surface should also be looked into. "Finders Keepers" should be the proper way unless you actually killed the ship and that ship reported you (report crimes against me) before dying. Else there is little incentive to scoop those things except early in game as the rewards are meagre.

PS PS: inb4 powerplay and undermining - your Power Contact should have the authority to clear you from the bounty via shady diplomatic means, and that activity shouldn't count towards your evil karma (probably).

 

[Misty_Dark]

I myself as an explorer have lost vast amounts of data due to being ganked on my way back, I learnt my lesson and armed up, you don't need to bring weapons but put a shield and some boosters on... enough for a high wake and your golden. the proposal put to PVPers was one of no chance to buy your ship... that different there is nothing we can do.

Now you are lying... ofcourse there are things you could do, you know that your Karma is dropping to "dangerous" levels, where you now actually risks loosing your ship. So who to blame if you keep doing what you are doing to loose Karma? Nobody, it is all on you, who failed to acknowledge the dangers of what you are doing. You failed to adapt and learn from your from misstake and now one you paid the top prize for of your own fault, your precious ship.

This is no different than you smacking down on weak explorers coming back from a long trip with exploration data. you call them out for making bad choices etc, and thus they "deserve" to loose their ship and exploration data....


Why should this be any different from your own suggestion that locking off space ports etc based on bad Karma be so different? If you want to visit a specific system, for example an engineer, and your Karma stops you from recieving docking permission? Now you are locked out of content. So what should we do about this? Whine like a crybaby about how unfair it is for you? or take it a like man and accept the situatin and do something about it?


So the bottom line here is, that you do not want to change your gamestyle when you are in danger of loosing your hard earned work (you modded ship), but you expect the explorers coming back from their trips to change their game style, or else risk all their hard earned work (exploration data)....


So how much time did you spend on your precious ship? 100 hours? 200 hours? 300 hours? So you failed the Karma system and now you risk to loose you precious ship...
As you put it. why should you NOT learn your lesson from why this happened and then do it all over again, and this time, learn your lesson to avoid this from happening the next time?

Becuase you expect explorers, to do this.... You expect explorers coming back home, to learn by their misstakes and redo their entire exploration trip to avoid the misstake they made coming home... So some players spent alot of hours exploring and now they want to come home and reap the rewards of their hard work, just to randomly risk being blasted into pieces by a someoner like you, and now you put thus in them, for not being prepared etc. You expect them to learn from this and do it all over again, but you to much of a carebear about your own precious enginered ship taht you cry foul if this even is mentioned as a consequence if you keep on your own opath, ignoring you declining Kerma.... you even say you will quit the game in this come in place... what happened to adapt and learn from your misstakes? well not you obviously, you say you would quit. how many players do you think have stopped playing from being assaulted by the likes of you? if that number is higher than the likes of you who would actually quit, then I say, that is a win, because if you cannot learn and adapt to it, you should get punished, and risking stuff for your own choices...


And no, I do not expect space to be a safe place.... I find quite a few good merits about your suggestion that the security of a system acutally means something.... So being in high security system would be relative safe, not 100%, and then decline form there. And so would the risk reward about doing stuff be, hauling cargo for example, doing it only in high security could be doable reasonably safe in a shieldless ship, but should be close to suicidal in an anarchy system, but the payout is higher in anarchy systems, just because the risk involved an the more skill required, regardless if you play in open or solo.

 

[Halifax Gibbet]

I think the point being made here ^^ about the wisdom of coming up with a new, parallel karma system is a very important one. We already have a bounty system and we already have quite a sophisticated reputation system.

I really hope that Frontier will take a decent stab at making the existing systems work before attempting to add a potentially hideously complex new overlay.

Examples of how the existing systems could be improved and utilised:

- Make all players members of the Pilots Federation NPC minor faction for rep purposes so that if you kill one (Powerplay/Wanted/Anarchies excepted), your Pilots Federation rep reduces (possibly eventually locking you out of Jameson for a while, if you don't pay your dues by running missions etc)

- Restore superpower-wide bounties

- Implement Pilots Federation galaxy-wide bounties

- Close sidey-splat bounty wiping

- Give us fully RNGineered NPC bounty hunters that track us down

- Allow Cmdrs to join other NPC minor factions for rep purposes, e.g., if an Imperial player is a member of the Emperors Grace minor faction, killing him would reduce my rep with them. This would be in addition to the automatic Pilots Federation membership

- Consider allowing Cmdrs to join superpower major factions for rep purposes, e.g. if I kill an Alliance guy my rep across the whole Alliance reduces

- Tie in the NPC bounty hunting closely with a combination of bounty level and rep level, in terms of aggression, numbers, frequency and power

Obviously the above is very much just thinking out loud and feel free to tear it to shreds...!

But the important point is this: I really hope Frontier does not take one single step towards making a completely new, complex, parallel karma system until they have explored to the full what can be achieved with the bounty and reputation systems that they have already made.

I hope we get a full Beta on that latter part.

Most of what's here I agree with, but they need to enable PVP that's legal somehow too outside of matched arenas, make the griefers fear for their ships, increase the fines to the level of the value of all the destroyed player ships and make them global when killed by a bounty hunter, make the KWS a passive tool much like the way ANPR works with liscence plates and make the bounties only half the value of the fines to be paid on rebuy.

Problem is the demand for consentual PVP, the use of groups and Clogging, reduced pirates to beggars long ago. This has a knock on effect on bounty hunters so what you have left if just griefing.

It was sad, I don't condone it, but I understand it.

- - - Updated - - -

The disconnect from some telling everyone else to fly with weapons and shields everywhere and to "git gud" whilst also complaining that nothing should be allowed to change the fact that they want to be able to attack anyone with impunity without having to modify their ships or behaviour at all is quite telling.

Partly fair, but you'd kick up a fuss if they suddenly put a no shield tax on your minmaxed ships, its not the risk of losing a ship thats the issue for most, rather the methodology. That said, a system that does modify this behaviour is necessary.

- - - Updated - - -

Why should a player be permitted to escape a poor karma rating and wipe the slate clean in seconds?



As Sandro says:

They shouldn't be able to escape bounties this way, but Karma is hokey god brushing.

- - - Updated - - -

Now you are lying... ofcourse there are things you could do, you know that your Karma is dropping to "dangerous" levels, where you now actually risks loosing your ship. So who to blame if you keep doing what you are doing to loose Karma? Nobody, it is all on you, who failed to acknowledge the dangers of what you are doing. You failed to adapt and learn from your from misstake and now one you paid the top prize for of your own fault, your precious ship.

This is no different than you smacking down on weak explorers coming back from a long trip with exploration data. you call them out for making bad choices etc, and thus they "deserve" to loose their ship and exploration data....


Why should this be any different from your own suggestion that locking off space ports etc based on bad Karma be so different? If you want to visit a specific system, for example an engineer, and your Karma stops you from recieving docking permission? Now you are locked out of content. So what should we do about this? Whine like a crybaby about how unfair it is for you? or take it a like man and accept the situatin and do something about it?


So the bottom line here is, that you do not want to change your gamestyle when you are in danger of loosing your hard earned work (you modded ship), but you expect the explorers coming back from their trips to change their game style, or else risk all their hard earned work (exploration data)....


So how much time did you spend on your precious ship? 100 hours? 200 hours? 300 hours? So you failed the Karma system and now you risk to loose you precious ship...
As you put it. why should you NOT learn your lesson from why this happened and then do it all over again, and this time, learn your lesson to avoid this from happening the next time?

Becuase you expect explorers, to do this.... You expect explorers coming back home, to learn by their misstakes and redo their entire exploration trip to avoid the misstake they made coming home... So some players spent alot of hours exploring and now they want to come home and reap the rewards of their hard work, just to randomly risk being blasted into pieces by a someoner like you, and now you put thus in them, for not being prepared etc. You expect them to learn from this and do it all over again, but you to much of a carebear about your own precious enginered ship taht you cry foul if this even is mentioned as a consequence if you keep on your own opath, ignoring you declining Kerma.... you even say you will quit the game in this come in place... what happened to adapt and learn from your misstakes? well not you obviously, you say you would quit. how many players do you think have stopped playing from being assaulted by the likes of you? if that number is higher than the likes of you who would actually quit, then I say, that is a win, because if you cannot learn and adapt to it, you should get punished, and risking stuff for your own choices...


And no, I do not expect space to be a safe place.... I find quite a few good merits about your suggestion that the security of a system acutally means something.... So being in high security system would be relative safe, not 100%, and then decline form there. And so would the risk reward about doing stuff be, hauling cargo for example, doing it only in high security could be doable reasonably safe in a shieldless ship, but should be close to suicidal in an anarchy system, but the payout is higher in anarchy systems, just because the risk involved an the more skill required, regardless if you play in open or solo.

"who failed to acknowledge the dangers"

The problem is with karma is not that its danger but certainty...

 

[Javert]

.... I'd hope that it would persist through CMDR reset too.

Controversial.

I would more likely say - if you reset your save, your karma situation is made dormant. If you then continue with exactly the same behaviour after reset, the dormant rating could be used as a balancing multiplier. i.e. if you are a murderer, reset your save and then continue murdering, your progress towards that karma would be faster.

I would also say that you don't necessarily need to visualize it as a linear scale from +100 to -100 or whatever.

Rather, see it as a big circle. Your karma at any point in time is a dot somewhere within that circle.

Various points on the outside of the circle like the hands of a clock, would be labelled as things like:
- Bounty hunting.
- Senseless murder.
- Piracy
- Mercenary / military activity.
- Smuggling
- Trading
- Mining
- Peaceful Exploration
- etc - list may not be complete

The actions you take in game would move your dot within this circle. Call it a kind of automated Myers Briggs survey for ED pilots

If you reach the outer edge of the circle, it's exponentially more difficult (but not impossible) to shift yourself back, although it might be easier to move round the edge of the circle into a slightly different but similar "role".

Very extreme measures like shadowban, if used at all, would be used if you are at the extreme senseless murder edge of the circle for a very long time. In reality, this would be very difficult even for those with that playstyle because they have to do other ativities to have enough credits to keep up their murdering. Even Besieger stated that he spends some of his playtime doing other things than murdering people, so those extreme measures probably wouldn't kick in.

In fact, on balance, I'm not sure that I'm really in favour of shadow ban being used in any kind of automated consequence system - shadow ban should be a decision by a human arbiter.

 

[Halifax Gibbet]

Controversial.

I would more likely say - if you reset your save, your karma situation is made dormant. If you then continue with exactly the same behaviour after reset, the dormant rating could be used as a balancing multiplier. i.e. if you are a murderer, reset your save and then continue murdering, your progress towards that karma would be faster.

I would also say that you don't necessarily need to visualize it as a linear scale from +100 to -100 or whatever.

Rather, see it as a big circle. Your karma at any point in time is a dot somewhere within that circle.

Various points on the outside of the circle like the hands of a clock, would be labelled as things like:
- Bounty hunting.
- Senseless murder.
- Piracy
- Mercenary / military activity.
- Smuggling
- Trading
- Mining
- Peaceful Exploration
- etc - list may not be complete

The actions you take in game would move your dot within this circle. Call it a kind of automated Myers Briggs survey for ED pilots

If you reach the outer edge of the circle, it's exponentially more difficult (but not impossible) to shift yourself back, although it might be easier to move round the edge of the circle into a slightly different but similar "role".

Very extreme measures like shadowban, if used at all, would be used if you are at the extreme senseless murder edge of the circle for a very long time. In reality, this would be very difficult even for those with that playstyle because they have to do other ativities to have enough credits to keep up their murdering.

In fact, on balance, I'm not sure that I'm really in favour of shadow ban being used in any kind of automated consequence system - shadow ban should be a decision by a human arbiter.

See this is really interesting, I'd go for no commander resets allowed with an active PK bounty but have the PK bounties timeout after a month only to be reactivated with a KWS.

If someone wants to wipe the slate clean they should be confined to the void for a while, pay their bounties or have to log off for a while.

Either way is a win, if they just don't play that's a month they're not griefing for.

 

[Quineloe]

I'm not gonna read the last five pages because it just keeps circling around the same subject: the shadow ban.

Sandro, you should just come out and state that shadow banning will be limited to repeated bug abuse, ie exploiting, and that interdicting, deploying hardpoints and shooting players dead in space will *never* result in a shadow ban by itself, no matter how many kills. Just flat out state the karma system does not include any out-of-game consequences. This would shut up half the people opposing it instantly.

I'd suggest the following. There shouldn't be one galaxy wide Karma system, but one for each major power that only applies in systems controlled by those powers, and in secondary starports in other systems controlled by that power (ie a 10% influence federation station in an independent system would run the karma system in their station perimeter, but the independent faction system security at the NAV Bacon, the RES and in supercurise does not).

So a player murdering relentlessly in Federation space would only become an "Outlaw" in Federation space. The consequences I already like, no more docking would be a huge start. It irritates me to no end when I see a murderhobo with a 100k bounty from a dozen murders peacefully docking at the very station he's been circling for the last hour, shooting down anyone entering or leaving. He then rearms and leaves, peacefully, to murder another dozen players right at the station.

Another thing that should change imo is that if you get destroyed, it shouldn't matter where you undocked last, but where you were destroyed. Because if you undocked at an Anarchy port, where your bad karma doesn't penalize you, and you get destroyed in a Federation system where you are an Outlaw, you respawn in the Anarchy port, with a nice cheap rebuy. Instead, you should always get respawned at the closest possible location. If that's the starport where you are an outlaw at and 20 million in legacy fines await you, then that's gonna be a very expensive death if you want to rebuy that Murderlance.

Ideally, murderhobos would either have to risk a lot to have a perfect murder ship in combat, or they scale it down to a less threatening, less expensive craft. Finally resulting for them in what they threw in our faces for almost three years at this point: Don't fly what you can't afford to lose.

and the idea that a clear save is anything but a full wipe is something you guys should drop mighty fast.

a clear save is a colossal setback and should not carry any baggage whatsoever. You don't keep your navy ranks either, and they're not "dormant" so you'd advance faster.

No one is going to clear their save to get rid of a maxed out bad karma, just to start anew. It's *still* cheaper to just rebuy ships at full price.

 

[VR StarLightPL]

I'm not gonna read the last five pages because it just keeps circling around the same subject: the shadow ban.

That's because people are focusing on the wrong thing which is "punishment" in crime and punishment, and not seeing an opportunity to give both playstyles some depth. See my previous post(s).

 

[Halifax Gibbet]

"Another thing that should change imo is that if you get destroyed, it shouldn't matter where you undocked last, but where you were destroyed. Because if you undocked at an Anarchy port, where your bad karma doesn't penalize you, and you get destroyed in a Federation system where you are an Outlaw, you respawn in the Anarchy port, with a nice cheap rebuy. Instead, you should always get respawned at the closest possible location. If that's the starport where you are an outlaw at and 20 million in legacy fines await you, then that's gonna be a very expensive death if you want to rebuy that Murderlance. "

If KWS and killed by a human, whack all the bounties on the rebuy cost wherever they are from. I liked the global pilots federation bounty idea mentioned earlier. But this guy summed one of the major issues up with the bounty system.

 

[Reav]

Why should a player be permitted to escape a poor karma rating and wipe the slate clean in seconds?



As Sandro says:

Hah you are a comedian, the constant passive aggressive narrative by you mods in regards to pvp is getting boring.

Only one that seems to keep his cool is jaret or how ever it is spelt.

Its really ironic you demand people change the way they have been playing since launch just because you and your kind are selfish enough to constantly badger about demands.

Fact with elite you have it much better than any other mmo with the ability to mix pve and pvp modes.
Its never enough though eh??

Im very proud of the way the pvp players of this community behave. You guys have true class in the face of this constant unwarranted trolling and abuse.