No, that's not what I have been trying to say. I want equality - I get the "criminal" perks, they get the "lawful" ones. I will be flagged in high sec systems, they will be in anarchy ones. I will have black market buy access, they will have exclusive, high paying "lawful" missions, etc.
Deliberate Ramming
- Thread starter shadragon
- Start date
No, that's not what I have been trying to say. I want equality - I get the "criminal" perks, they get the "lawful" ones. I will be flagged in high sec systems, they will be in anarchy ones. I will have black market buy access, they will have exclusive, high paying "lawful" missions, etc.
OK, misread that. So not the same perks but analogous perks. Gotcha! Sorry!
The idea isn't without it's attractions and I can see how it might make for interesting gameplay. And you are right that FD do magic new features out of thin air. But I believe splitting the player base goes against one of the fundamental design decisions in the game: all players are treated the same and the Pliot's Federation is the in game explanation for how this works. And as a developer the complexities of engineering such a schism would have me scratching my head. What mechanisms cause a pilot to change for CMDR to CRSR and vice verses. What happens to Pilot Federation ranks? Navy ranks? Power play alligences and faction reputations? How do you handle players in boundary states between CMDR and CRSR who might oscillate between the two? What ways might players find to game the system and undermine it' purpose. How do I make sure I don't break other parts of the game?
So yeah it's an interesting idea, but I'd much rather FD focussed their attention and development elsewhere.
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Another thing just occurred to me. With a "roleplay behaviour" karma tracking system in place, it wouldn't be so easy to game either the bounty system (two friends agree for racking up and collecting a bounty, hence the 1mil cap on bounties) and it would make suicidewinder completely useless - because it would get rid only of last bounty, not the overall karma status. And unless someone was aiming for a criminal career, the consequences of a bad rep would outweigh the short term cash infusion from bounty or escaping the wanted status.
Because I have too much time, I've thought of all this.
Faction and power and navy ranks wouldn't change. But where you can dock will be limited. However, if you have a high standing with the controlling faction, you could still dock in a higher security station that would normally shun you. Naval ranks might transfer to a privateer status.
Keep in mind this wouldn't be just a karma system for PVP, it'd involve attacking clean NPCs as well. Criminal is criminal. Differentiating too much between the two is really silly.
Each major crime dips your reputation. So, you'd have a couple warnings about killing or robbing innocents, and if you stop, you'll be fine, but if you continue, you are booted into the Corsairs. All your CMDR ranks are rescinded and you're a Fresh new CRSR. Your ranks as a CMDR do help a bit on your reputation.
Being a smuggler can gain a CMDR a bit of criminal cred/ reputation without being kicked out of the PF. My ideal concept includes corsairs losing access to credits and needing to use physyical currency that needs to be hidden and can be destroyed, allowing for pirate stashes... and would allow shadier CMDRs to be involved with money laundering, and the selling of temp credit accounts.
As for rising back to commander, well first time might just be a renunciation and trial period, if you drop again, it'd take more commitment. Repeat offenders are stuck, obviously they like being a pirate more than a law abiding person.
(Note, sanctioned combat like powerplay or navy stuff don't count towards getting kicked out of th main PF, this is piracy specific, even if the victim survived the piracy.)
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I feel like this is a point posters are missing here when they say things like (not to pick on you specifically BTW, this was just the most recent example in my backlog to read):
Javert's response is good on this topic..
The suggestions to improve the current C&P in game are all good, and we would all benefit from them, BUT they won't do the main thing a karma system aims to do. The C&P system in game give you a commanders current criminality state over a relatively short span of time. A Karma system would track a players behaviour trend over a much longer period of time. This is the key, you cannot detect and respond to poor player behaviour without tracking it over longer time scales because, just like with combat logging, a single incident may not paint a clear enough picture.
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FTFY. See my other response to you on this topic. It's "unfair" that one group of players is forced into solo, and the other is not. How would you feel if there was a special PvP mode you had to enter, instead of Open?
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I am on the fence about this point.
On the one hand the worst griefers are likely to reset their save to avoid penalties, however, in doing so they would start from scratch, however, they would likely have mates to kick start them back into a decent ship, however, that might not even be necessary as it depends what sort of griefing they're doing.
On the other hand, someone might legitimately be playing a murderer, decide to reset and play clean and they should be able to do that.
So.. I see no reason why the karma system couldn't 'reset' on commander 'reset' BUT also retain the karma level from each reset and in that way it could detect a player who repeatedly gets bad karma and resets repeatedly.
Javert's response is good on this topic..
The suggestions to improve the current C&P in game are all good, and we would all benefit from them, BUT they won't do the main thing a karma system aims to do. The C&P system in game give you a commanders current criminality state over a relatively short span of time. A Karma system would track a players behaviour trend over a much longer period of time. This is the key, you cannot detect and respond to poor player behaviour without tracking it over longer time scales because, just like with combat logging, a single incident may not paint a clear enough picture.
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FTFY. See my other response to you on this topic. It's "unfair" that one group of players is forced into solo, and the other is not. How would you feel if there was a special PvP mode you had to enter, instead of Open?
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I am on the fence about this point.
On the one hand the worst griefers are likely to reset their save to avoid penalties, however, in doing so they would start from scratch, however, they would likely have mates to kick start them back into a decent ship, however, that might not even be necessary as it depends what sort of griefing they're doing.
On the other hand, someone might legitimately be playing a murderer, decide to reset and play clean and they should be able to do that.
So.. I see no reason why the karma system couldn't 'reset' on commander 'reset' BUT also retain the karma level from each reset and in that way it could detect a player who repeatedly gets bad karma and resets repeatedly.
When they were first suggested this was also how I felt. But having seen how certain modifications quickly became game-changing QOL features for PVE, and effectively a requirement for apex PVP, I changed my mind. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense lore-wise, but then neither do a number of other mechanics that are there as a convenience for 21st century players rather than something 34th century characters have to concern themselves with.
I guess if FD wanted to retcon they could increase the rebuy costs for engineered ships, with a justification that insurance companies are expensively salvaging key engineered components from the wreck sites and using them to rebuild lost ships with Engineers' help. But then people would complain that this shouldn't happen instantaneously, or that players should be able to destroy other players' ships and salvage those key parts themselves so they can effectively "pirate" god-rolled modules.
Sometimes it's best just to leave well alone.
I agree it is a bit pay-to-win though, for certain interpretations of "win". I doubt there are many PVP enthusiasts who are running pre-Horizons builds.
When it comes to Freudian typos, I'd suggest that Sandra had it coming...
![[VR] Merkir](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/141/141091.jpg?1553527154){kind=avatar}
Sandro, I just wanted to say that your Karma system has a lot of potential. With such a system you will have the ability to add infractions (negative karma) and prestige (positive karma) triggered by in-game player actions that up until now has been severely lacking. If done well, it's a huge opportunity to improve the game in many areas:
1. A credible C&P system to improve the logical consistency and verisimilitude of the game.
2. Griefers and murder hobos will eventually suffer consequences for their actions.
3. It allows player-driven gameplay and roleplay that currently doesn't exist.
It is the latter which interests me in particular. Here's what I just wrote on another thread...
----snip----
I would love to become an Outlaw, but up until now there's no in-game support for this. So what do some people do instead? They grief, they gank, they become hobo murderers. There's no incentive for me to do that now because there's no consequences and no danger. It's mindless killing at other player's expense with absolutely NO IN GAME REASON to do it. It's relegated to the douches and sociopaths.
I want Open to be MUCH MORE DANGEROUS. I want to be an outlaw. I want to have a karma rank of Notorious, or Infamous. I want missions that ask me to raid into a high sec system for BIG REWARDS, outlaw level booty, knowing that at any second I could get killed by either the security forces or other players who see my notoriety.
This is what the Karma system has the ability to provide. Real player driven gameplay and roleplay, supported by new rank and new missions.
It's a huge opportunity for FDev, an opportunity that up until now has been lost.
----snip----
I don't see the Karma system as preventing clean PKs. It will curtail it sure, and that's a very needed thing. Obviously the 0.1% of players that are the griefers and hobo murderers won't like it. Good. If a hobo murderer has as his aim to make 10000 player kills, mostly baby seal clubbing, with absolutely no in-game reason to do it other than they want to spoil other player's fun, then good riddance to that douch-baggery. Let them play as outlaws under a REAL game which the karma system has the potential to provide, where they might experience some danger and repercussions for a change.
This thread has shown the griefers' true colours. As soon as there's any talk about a real C&P system - a credible system like Sandro's Karma system - they post en-masse to try to prevent it, or to suggest alternatives that allow them to continue their unlimited, risk free, no consequence PKing anti-social behaviour. The irony of it is, they might actually like a karma system better. It's all in the implementation.
Edit: I should add that with a Karma system in place I'd be much more likely to want to take part in what was previously non-consensual PvP, and possibly even instigate it myself (using in-game outlaw support through the Karma system). I'd gladly die to gankers and griefers even in an unarmed explorer if I knew they would suffer some consequences, even if it's just a small drop in their Karma.
1. A credible C&P system to improve the logical consistency and verisimilitude of the game.
2. Griefers and murder hobos will eventually suffer consequences for their actions.
3. It allows player-driven gameplay and roleplay that currently doesn't exist.
It is the latter which interests me in particular. Here's what I just wrote on another thread...
----snip----
I would love to become an Outlaw, but up until now there's no in-game support for this. So what do some people do instead? They grief, they gank, they become hobo murderers. There's no incentive for me to do that now because there's no consequences and no danger. It's mindless killing at other player's expense with absolutely NO IN GAME REASON to do it. It's relegated to the douches and sociopaths.
I want Open to be MUCH MORE DANGEROUS. I want to be an outlaw. I want to have a karma rank of Notorious, or Infamous. I want missions that ask me to raid into a high sec system for BIG REWARDS, outlaw level booty, knowing that at any second I could get killed by either the security forces or other players who see my notoriety.
This is what the Karma system has the ability to provide. Real player driven gameplay and roleplay, supported by new rank and new missions.
It's a huge opportunity for FDev, an opportunity that up until now has been lost.
----snip----
I don't see the Karma system as preventing clean PKs. It will curtail it sure, and that's a very needed thing. Obviously the 0.1% of players that are the griefers and hobo murderers won't like it. Good. If a hobo murderer has as his aim to make 10000 player kills, mostly baby seal clubbing, with absolutely no in-game reason to do it other than they want to spoil other player's fun, then good riddance to that douch-baggery. Let them play as outlaws under a REAL game which the karma system has the potential to provide, where they might experience some danger and repercussions for a change.
This thread has shown the griefers' true colours. As soon as there's any talk about a real C&P system - a credible system like Sandro's Karma system - they post en-masse to try to prevent it, or to suggest alternatives that allow them to continue their unlimited, risk free, no consequence PKing anti-social behaviour. The irony of it is, they might actually like a karma system better. It's all in the implementation.
Edit: I should add that with a Karma system in place I'd be much more likely to want to take part in what was previously non-consensual PvP, and possibly even instigate it myself (using in-game outlaw support through the Karma system). I'd gladly die to gankers and griefers even in an unarmed explorer if I knew they would suffer some consequences, even if it's just a small drop in their Karma.
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Yes but the point that I, in turn, feel is being overlooked is that Frontier have already made a Cmdr-specific reputation system which is persistent and is not tied to our ships. We each have a unique rep level with every single superpower in the game, ever single minor faction in the game and every single Powerplay faction in the game. That complete blueprint will be different for every single one of us and is a consequence of our actions.
My argument is not over the need to forge something new to improve C&P - this needs to be done - but over the method. Specifically creation of a new, separate karma system or improvements to the bounty and faction rep systems?
I believe that Frontier can and should look at improving the bounty system and the rep system and wedding the two together so as to create, in effect, a karma system. I suggest that this should be tried first - and a competely fresh, third overlay created only if it proves to be necessary after a thorough attempt at utilising the existing tools - which has not even been tried yet. Let me repeat my very quick list above of what could be attempted but hasn't been:
I think that the proposal to create a completely new and separate karma system is premature. Utilising the existing assets better should be tried first.
I agree with @TheChrissboy's warnings concerning what we might call 'the Powerplay phenomenon' - a new toy gets a ton of Developer resource and attention, but only momentarily - is complex, doesn't work well and never gets fixed.
The mooted karma system has all of those warning signs written all over it. Good and prudent husbandry of the game's resources suggests to me that it would be worth trying to get the existing systems to work better, rather than creating new ones.
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I've never understood why the person killed pays the rebuy and it's case closed in this case. ED like the real world is a closed economy, somebody is paying for the full ship cost and the answer is the insurance company. In the world of Elite the insurance companies are passing more money than anybody else, heck they're probably the ones behind all the mysteries, they have a bigger budget than the Feds and Empire put together, surely they have some clout.
If I outfit a 100M ship and die then I'm out 5M and tne insurance company is out 95M for the replacement. If anybody should be upset it's them. If I were the insurance company I'd want that money back.
I still feel any changes should factor this in. For example (and it's just an example)
Note this doesn't impact non-lethal piracy at all, it gives both the pirated and the pirate an incentive to let things play out in a non-lethal way. Otherwise they're both potentially out money. Potentially NPCs need to be modified a bit to be a little more willing to not fight to the death if they're clearly over matched.
I'm down with somebody wanting to play ED in a murderous rogue way. This just means they really need to avoid dying in a non-anarchy system or they're bank account is going to get wiped out. I get that would fundamentally change the game and many would absolutely hate it but it makes a lot more sense to me than a karma system.
It also gives some incentive to the white hats to hunt down wanted pilots because killing them can put a serious hurt on them beyond the typical 5% rebuy.
If I outfit a 100M ship and die then I'm out 5M and tne insurance company is out 95M for the replacement. If anybody should be upset it's them. If I were the insurance company I'd want that money back.
I still feel any changes should factor this in. For example (and it's just an example)
- Every time a player kills another player (NPC or real) in a potentially criminal way (e.g. anarchy and CZs don't count) they incur an insurance debt which is some function of the destroyed ship's cost. It could be the 95% balance cost of the ship or it could be a fraction of that.
- Factor in kill issues just like the karma discussion, determinations about ramming and intent apply equally validly here.
- Costs are adjusted based on clarity of guilt (see first post this thread)
- That debt could vary whether the target is a PC or NPC, For example maybe for PC's it's 95% and for NPCs it's somewhere between 0% (no change to current) and 95% (overly strong impact on game play) as a nod to game play realities. I'd suggest something like 10%, enough that playing a destroyer of NPCs has consequences but then clean NPCs have to be more profitable. In the 100M example the killed is out 5M and the killer is potentially out 95M if they ever die in a non-anarchy system (could be less depending on implementation)
- This also probably only has to apply to open (and yes I'm an open player) to avoid the howls of the solo NPC murderer brigade.
- If somebody with an insurance debt dies in a non-anarchy system then the insurance company steps in once their pod is discovered and extracts that amount from their account before releasing it.
Note this doesn't impact non-lethal piracy at all, it gives both the pirated and the pirate an incentive to let things play out in a non-lethal way. Otherwise they're both potentially out money. Potentially NPCs need to be modified a bit to be a little more willing to not fight to the death if they're clearly over matched.
I'm down with somebody wanting to play ED in a murderous rogue way. This just means they really need to avoid dying in a non-anarchy system or they're bank account is going to get wiped out. I get that would fundamentally change the game and many would absolutely hate it but it makes a lot more sense to me than a karma system.
It also gives some incentive to the white hats to hunt down wanted pilots because killing them can put a serious hurt on them beyond the typical 5% rebuy.
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With regard to the original ramming topic, I think the current system would be perfectly sufficient were stations consistently enforcing the rules they are supposed to. The speed limit fix isn't elegant, but it does work.
"Undesirable" but within an in-game context is one thing, but deliberately disconnecting to magically remove your vessel from harms way via out of game means seems pretty clearly distinct.
Admittedly, I'm pretty biased against cheaters and it worries me to see them put on the same level as CMDRs who simply destroy much weaker vessels.
What is 'normal' PvP combat?
The most common sort of PvP encounter I get into is when 1-5 combat vessels pull me over and start shooting until I or they wake away.
So, are most jurisdictions going to tie the severity of a crime to how powerful the perpetrator and victim supposedly are relative to each other? I could see some societies doing this, but to make it universal seem quite odd. If I use a Viper to destroy an Anaconda CMDR, I'd expect the crime to be punished the same as if I used a Cutter to destroy an Eagle CMDR, at least in most areas. Maybe I'm not as well versed in Elite's history and lore as I should be...is there precedent for this sort of thing?
I agree.
"Undesirable" but within an in-game context is one thing, but deliberately disconnecting to magically remove your vessel from harms way via out of game means seems pretty clearly distinct.
Admittedly, I'm pretty biased against cheaters and it worries me to see them put on the same level as CMDRs who simply destroy much weaker vessels.
What is 'normal' PvP combat?
The most common sort of PvP encounter I get into is when 1-5 combat vessels pull me over and start shooting until I or they wake away.
So, are most jurisdictions going to tie the severity of a crime to how powerful the perpetrator and victim supposedly are relative to each other? I could see some societies doing this, but to make it universal seem quite odd. If I use a Viper to destroy an Anaconda CMDR, I'd expect the crime to be punished the same as if I used a Cutter to destroy an Eagle CMDR, at least in most areas. Maybe I'm not as well versed in Elite's history and lore as I should be...is there precedent for this sort of thing?
I agree.
imho bad karma needs to build up , and does decay only over time.
any form of positive karma buildup can, and will be exploited, effectively defeat the purpose of the system.
positive karma? if its implemented, then the player that are supposed to be penalised by the whole system,
will simply build up positive karma to the max, and then do their "fun" stuff until its down to neutral, or just keep it at a save level.
any form of positive karma buildup can, and will be exploited, effectively defeat the purpose of the system.
positive karma? if its implemented, then the player that are supposed to be penalised by the whole system,
will simply build up positive karma to the max, and then do their "fun" stuff until its down to neutral, or just keep it at a save level.
If karma can be lost via actions, automatically, then that's ok.
But positive karma should only be gain via other CMDRs "repping" you with it, with strict limits. (Can only rep the same CMDR once per week, can only receive so much per week, etc)
Otherwise people will just find some form of exploitation of an automated system and gain loads of positive rep to negate the loss from mass murder.
Especially since a positive action is much harder to define with game logic.
If I jump in to res, and see a new CMDR struggling, and I jump in and kill his attacker, thus saving his life, the game is very likely to not recognise that at all. But the CMDR will.
Same goes for if I just jump in to steal his kill. Game might not notice, but the CMDR will, if I keep doing it.
This is why I keep campaigning for a manual vote for both positive and negative karma.
Food for thought.
CMDR Cosmic Spacehead
But positive karma should only be gain via other CMDRs "repping" you with it, with strict limits. (Can only rep the same CMDR once per week, can only receive so much per week, etc)
Otherwise people will just find some form of exploitation of an automated system and gain loads of positive rep to negate the loss from mass murder.
Especially since a positive action is much harder to define with game logic.
If I jump in to res, and see a new CMDR struggling, and I jump in and kill his attacker, thus saving his life, the game is very likely to not recognise that at all. But the CMDR will.
Same goes for if I just jump in to steal his kill. Game might not notice, but the CMDR will, if I keep doing it.
This is why I keep campaigning for a manual vote for both positive and negative karma.
Food for thought.
CMDR Cosmic Spacehead
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Larger groups of players would be able to maximise karma improvement for their members if it was player-based.
You're a nice guy but not everyone is, to get all Banksiain The Use Of Weapons and The Player Of Games. Any system allowed into the hands of the players will get played and used as a weapon. A large enough group of PvP'ers could guarantee each other a constant feed of positive rep and would then not only destroy weaker ships for no reason but also give them negative rep.
Like I said you're a nice guy bit it's a horrible idea because "some people".
Ninja'd - by ten minutes! A personal record at least
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That would be meta gamed so hard:
"Want to see more noob stomping videos on my channel? Then log into ED and uprep me!"
The only system I can think of that can't be gamed is to have rep recover over time.
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Ninja'd - by ten minutes! A personal record at least
Eleven minutes! Casual
Been following the discussion and it's been an interesting read, to say the least.
A number of people have touched on the Pilots Federation insurance and I think there's some exploring to do there that would perhaps sit with lore well. Just spit-balling here...
Since the insurance pool is on the hook for 95% of the cost of replacing a destroyed ship, how about this:
(note: this would exclude Powerplay kills, Anarchy system kills, CZ activity and would be totally separate from criminal penalties like the proposed loss of docking privileges, bounties, enhanced police response in higher security systems, etc.)
If a clean ship is destroyed illegally, the killing Commander's credit account is "attached" by the insurance company for the 95% cost and their insurance rating takes a hit which, over time, gradually increases THEIR rebuy percentage to an ultimate level of -- loss of insurance entirely -- 100%. For ganks, the cost would paid by ALL offending parties participating in the gank like a bounty is in a wing.
Just like real insurance companies, flying "accident free" will gradually improve their standing with the insurance company -- assuming they haven't lost their insurance -- until they are back where they started. Also, just like with real insurance, there could be an accident forgivenes provision where you are entitled some small number of claims in a set period of time (like 1 per month) without taking an insurance rating hit. You still need to pay the 95% though.
For baby seal clubbing, there could be an enhanced provision where if the victim Commander is very low rank and only logged less than a certain number of hours the killing Commander's credit account could be "sued" for the rebuy cost up to 100% if the killed Commander did not have enough for a rebuy -- this way the newbie victim could be "made whole".
Thinking through the "deliberate ramming" scenario which started this thread.... if I'm in a Cutter and speeding (my fault) and someone in a shieldless Sidewinder deliberately rams me and blows up ... well, that's a problem with the current system because the station will consider it murder and insta-gib me and I'm out 60 million CR ... AND with my proposal above I would have the further insult of paying 95% of the cost for that Sidey pilot who probably has more credits in the bank than me. So, there's still that. [Edit: Yes, I know -- don't speed]
The issue of deliberate ramming to inflict financial harm on another player still needs a mechanic to resolve -- if indeed one is possible since it seems to get down to the issue of "intent".
The general goal (for me) would be to see to it that (a) Commanders intent on causing death and destruction have to face real consequences for their actions instead of the trivial joke of the current 6,000CR for murder which eventually goes away whilst still allowing them to play "their way" if they so choose; and (b) there should always be a pathway to redemption should the person decide to take a less destructive path in the game.
A number of people have touched on the Pilots Federation insurance and I think there's some exploring to do there that would perhaps sit with lore well. Just spit-balling here...
Since the insurance pool is on the hook for 95% of the cost of replacing a destroyed ship, how about this:
(note: this would exclude Powerplay kills, Anarchy system kills, CZ activity and would be totally separate from criminal penalties like the proposed loss of docking privileges, bounties, enhanced police response in higher security systems, etc.)
If a clean ship is destroyed illegally, the killing Commander's credit account is "attached" by the insurance company for the 95% cost and their insurance rating takes a hit which, over time, gradually increases THEIR rebuy percentage to an ultimate level of -- loss of insurance entirely -- 100%. For ganks, the cost would paid by ALL offending parties participating in the gank like a bounty is in a wing.
Just like real insurance companies, flying "accident free" will gradually improve their standing with the insurance company -- assuming they haven't lost their insurance -- until they are back where they started. Also, just like with real insurance, there could be an accident forgivenes provision where you are entitled some small number of claims in a set period of time (like 1 per month) without taking an insurance rating hit. You still need to pay the 95% though.
For baby seal clubbing, there could be an enhanced provision where if the victim Commander is very low rank and only logged less than a certain number of hours the killing Commander's credit account could be "sued" for the rebuy cost up to 100% if the killed Commander did not have enough for a rebuy -- this way the newbie victim could be "made whole".
Thinking through the "deliberate ramming" scenario which started this thread.... if I'm in a Cutter and speeding (my fault) and someone in a shieldless Sidewinder deliberately rams me and blows up ... well, that's a problem with the current system because the station will consider it murder and insta-gib me and I'm out 60 million CR ... AND with my proposal above I would have the further insult of paying 95% of the cost for that Sidey pilot who probably has more credits in the bank than me. So, there's still that.
[Edit: Yes, I know -- don't speed]The issue of deliberate ramming to inflict financial harm on another player still needs a mechanic to resolve -- if indeed one is possible since it seems to get down to the issue of "intent".
The general goal (for me) would be to see to it that (a) Commanders intent on causing death and destruction have to face real consequences for their actions instead of the trivial joke of the current 6,000CR for murder which eventually goes away whilst still allowing them to play "their way" if they so choose; and (b) there should always be a pathway to redemption should the person decide to take a less destructive path in the game.
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rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
Agreed!
The information which needs to be tracked has, I believe from what Sandro is suggesting, never been tracked before.
A reputation, being a single value X% with a given power/faction/etc is of no use whatsoever in answering Qs like..
- Does this player grief new players in Eravate
just for example.
The thing you're not "getting" (from where I'm sitting) is that the karma system being proposed would not necessarily be very tightly bound to your commanders in-game situation (reputation etc). Rather, it's a measure of the actions that you as a player have taken. There is a reason I keep bolding and underlining the two words and this is because there is a difference between actions a commander takes and the repercussions (entirely in game and lore appropriate, the sorts of things an in-game C&P system would address) and the larger trends in behaviour that a player takes and the repercussions for those. This last, is what the system Sandro is proposing would address.
Perhaps the use of the word "karma" is confusing people, because I believe it has been used for entirely in-game/in-character tracking before. The system proposed, I believe, is not going to be like those systems.
The reason for a karma system is, broadly speaking, to discourage players violating Wheaton's Law. In an ideal world it would not be necessary, because players would respect the rights of other players, but unfortunately some players seem to think they have the right to do whatever they feel like, regardless of the effect of these actions on the enjoyment of other players. It's currently toxic, and needs to stop.
I think we all agree that a better C&P system would improve the game, but it's the wrong solution to the issue of anti-social behaviour.
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Great. In this situation no karma effect would apply. So, as I said, no karma effect for normal PvP.
If you were a new player in a sidewinder you'd be dead in under 10 seconds and all 5 of those commanders would get karma penalties.
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It is obvious you have not done any engineering by those statements. Hell no. If that was announced as a game mechanic I would stop playing.
If a PVE player with a perfectly engineered exploration Anaconda gits ganked and killed, you want the PVE player to loose the 40+ hours they put into engineering to be lost?