Elite: Harmless - Karma System aka "be the Tamagotchi" - FRESH SALT, MINED RIGHT HERE

[-Denali-]

It's on you to provide better clarity and distinction to YOUR own position. As for my experience in the what, 5 days I've been here, is that ANY form of pvp or interest in pvp type activities is met with whaling, gnashing, and condescension from several people here. It's so prominent that i immediately wanted nothing more than to pvp against these people.

I just can't STAND this condescending, illogical, intemperate behavior, and I absolutely love that I have the opportunity to shoot down some of you, one day. I mean, clearly whether or not I'm any good it'll be awhile before I have ships you gotta worry about lol


But yes, again, karma: I'll happily fly the black flag and have to sneak in and out of systems to attack you. Bring it on. Sounds far more exciting than other trades on this game.

Not that those trades are bad, just that I'd much rather the immersion of piracy against human players.

You don't need a big ship to be a threat. One of my favorite combat pilots to watch is Archon Fury because the guy uses a sidey and is a complete beast. Enjoy!
[video=youtube;B6ZsNNi3ncI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6ZsNNi3ncI[/video]

That goes back to one problem with the proposed karma system. A big part of what Sandro was talking about seems to be in comparing the ships to judge the fairness of the fight. Real killers don't need big, expensive ships to fight players that take no measures to prepare for the danger. A sidey built and flown well will terrorize.

 

[Dialectic]

You don't need a big ship to be a threat. One of my favorite combat pilots to watch is Archon Fury because the guy uses a sidey and is a complete beast. Enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6ZsNNi3ncI

That goes back to one problem with the proposed karma system. A big part of what Sandro was talking about seems to be in comparing the ships to judge the fairness of the fight. Real killers don't need big, expensive ships to fight players that take no measures to prepare for the danger. A sidey built and flown well will terrorize.

I'm at work so can't fully focus on the video, but looks awesome. I had a suspicion that using a better rated smaller ship would get the job done. Ive got some research and practice ahead of me lol

 

[Deadspin]

Hardly. Don't kid or delude yourself. There's just a lot of people who simply don't want to bother with the typical online gaming trash heap. I am one of them. It is a waste of my time to deal with the so-called "PVPers" in Open. So, I am not going to waste my time there. Simple as that. They are simply not worth the effort. Could I deal with them? Sure, I still do when on fuel rat rescues, but at any other time, they don't deserve my time, energy, or anything else.

I am not content in being someone else's "content." That is NOT why I play ED. I play to have some fun, and to do so as I see fit.

Technically, even though your reasoning may be different to you, you still fall into that group of 40,000 players who left open because of a group of 6-12 players.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I left Open because of a group of 1500 players.

 

[Zambrick]

Technically, even though your reasoning may be different to you, you still fall into that group of 40,000 players who left open because of a group of 6-12 players.

I stayed in open in defiance of 1000 to 2000 players. Its not my fault that all of them quit playing the game when the Lulz were over. Thats yours fault. O and go ahead and continue to skew the numbers to make yourself look like poor defenseless griefers who gosh darnit has been getting a bad rap all these years. It turns out they really do care. You can live in that delusion knowing at least 40k decided not to drink your kool-aide.

 

[Deadspin]

I left Open because of a group of 1500 players.

Which one?

I stayed in open in defiance of 1000 to 2000 players. Its not my fault that all of them quit playing the game when the Lulz were over. Thats yours fault. O and go ahead and continue to skew the numbers to make yourself look like poor defenseless griefers who gosh darnit has been getting a bad rap all these years. It turns out they really do care. You can live in that delusion knowing at least 40k decided not to drink your kool-aide.

Why do you keep calling me a griefer?

 

[Dialectic]

I stayed in open in defiance of 1000 to 2000 players. Its not my fault that all of them quit playing the game when the Lulz were over. Thats yours fault. O and go ahead and continue to skew the numbers to make yourself look like poor defenseless griefers who gosh darnit has been getting a bad rap all these years. It turns out they really do care. You can live in that delusion knowing at least 40k decided not to drink your kool-aide.

Are you saying all pvp is griefing? Or do you have a specific circumstance in mind? Will it be affected at all by a new karma system?

 

[Mohrgan]

6-12, like there was some kind of field count. One amusing comment, becomes a trope in hours. You have to realize, even as you try to shame players into accepting open, that all it takes is one. If you find yourself aggravated by a Commander who is "making content" out of your ship, you connect the dots pretty quickly. You ask yourself: "Why should I suffer this attention in open, when I can strictly and quickly avoid it elsewhere?" It only takes one session to make the switch. What drove players out of open, is the effortless way one can ignore it.

When the Engineers landed you could see all of my PvP buddies in Solo or a PG grinding up their Engineer relationships. Why? Because they didn't want to be vulnerable prey, while they completed the tasks required to gear up. How much difference is there between a PvP'er who didn't want to be exposed, and anyone else? Except for the intention of returning when they are up to speed?

In a similar vein, I left open because of my interests. My interests don't center on total preparation for combat, nor slavishly grinding Engineer Reps, and Mats. I conceded the field in favor of all-'round builds on my ships. I instantly gave up open, in favor of more flexibility in my load outs. Allowing me to take better advantage of the content provided.

Open is just not that special place some would like to make it out to be. It's risen to some 'red badge of courage'. Which I think is ridiculous. The day I play a video game, or accept a less than positive experience, in order to meet some standard or prove my grit, is the day I sell my PC and remind myself just what is important in life.

 

[AceFlares]

A pure ganker is by definition a carebear. If never put your self in any danger and only attack much weaker targets, you are a bit of a softy.

I don't think there are to many of them in ED. At least from my impression. We do however have players that attacks indiscriminately.

Top PvP players, that like to challenge them self against the best are not carebears. They are PvE nerds. The time and effort required in PvE, to build several top level PvP ships is tremendous. You have to love PvE to be a PvP'er in ED.

These statements are emphatically true in just about any MMO. Including Elite, which has sadly imho chosen the MMO grind train to the best gear to own the casuals and newbies mechanic.

There are PVE fitted people in Open willing to take risks and they're the true heroes (if they don't combat log). Last night I attacked an Anaconda which, after flicking through his subsystems and damage, I thought, if he's a bad pilot I may just sneak it with the Cobra. So, yes, the first minute or two, he's a bad pilot, and he knows it. He had rear facing turreted large beams. I barely escaped with 21% hull. PVErs are not supposed to defend themselves in such a way. It's against the rules!

 

[Dialectic]

6-12, like there was some kind of field count. One amusing comment, becomes a trope in hours. You have to realize, even as you try to shame players into accepting open, that all it takes is one. If you find yourself aggravated by a Commander who is "making content" out of your ship, you connect the dots pretty quickly. You ask yourself: "Why should I suffer this attention in open, when I can strictly and quickly avoid it elsewhere?" It only takes one session to make the switch. What drove players out of open, is the effortless way one can ignore it.

When the Engineers landed you could see all of my PvP buddies in Solo or a PG grinding up their Engineer relationships. Why? Because they didn't want to be vulnerable prey, while they completed the tasks required to gear up. How much difference is there between a PvP'er who didn't want to be exposed, and anyone else? Except for the intention of returning when they are up to speed?

In a similar vein, I left open because of my interests. My interests don't center on total preparation for combat, nor slavishly grinding Engineer Reps, and Mats. I conceded the field in favor of all-'round builds on my ships. I instantly gave up open, in favor of more flexibility in my load outs. Allowing me to take better advantage of the content provided.

Open is just not that special place some would like to make it out to be. It's risen to some 'red badge of courage'. Which I think is ridiculous. The day I play a video game, or accept a less than positive experience, in order to meet some standard or prove my grit, is the day I sell my PC and remind myself just what is important in life.

So you wouldn't care about a karma system? Sounds like while you may accept npcs shooting at you, you just can't accept a person shooting at you and so will remain by yourself regardless of a c&p system

 

[mossfoot]

As an aside, is everyone here playing on open? Can you clarify why people care about karma or c&p if y'all are going to stay on solo anyways?

More of us who care about karma and C&P are in open than you care to admit to.

 

[Zambrick]

Which one?



Why do you keep calling me a griefer?

Did I? Did I say hey Deadspin you are griefer. You are however representing them because you are defending a policy where no rules or fields of engagement are in place. You support a system where all civilians are actual feasible targets of entertainment. Does that make you a griefer by association? That is up to you to decide. I never called you a Griefer, that is your assumption.

So if you don't align yourself as a griefer then why are you opposed to this possible new system? It will only legitimize an entire profession in the game. It will only increase the risk versus reward factor that this game is lacking for an entire playstyle. You may PVP in leagues or duels or whatnot. However this has never been about PVP versus PVE. This issue is PVE and PVP Versus Griefers. Period. Anyone attempting to muddy difference between the 2 are just hiding behind a technicality because they have no other argument.

Don't align your views with theirs if you dont want to be associated with them. Again thats your fault not mine.

 

[Mohrgan]

So you wouldn't care about a karma system? Sounds like while you may accept npcs shooting at you, you just can't accept a person shooting at you and so will remain by yourself regardless of a c&p system

I'm glad you feel confident enough to reach into my mind and see what I'm thinking...

I do care about a Notoriety system because it would improve game play, not just control the murder hobo's. Any new system would cover Solo, PG, and open equally. You try desperately to dismiss anything that doesn't fit your narrative.

Yeah, I am set in my ways. No C&P/Notoriety system will likely change my playing habits. That's exactly why I have said I don;t think FD should use the mechanics of the game to control player behavior. Let the Modes do that. If you enjoy the open environment you use it, if you don;t, well you don;t. The only positive step forward for FD in all of this is to create a PvE-Open. Players that have already decided to leave open would have a place to coalesce, while the current status of open would remain unchanged.

PvP is just not worth the grind, nor the inflexibility of builds.

 

[Dialectic]

More of us who care about karma and C&P are in open than you care to admit to.

What do you mean "that I care to admit to"? I asked the question out of genuine curiosity. See this is what I meant, the apparent hostility from the anti-pvp crowd. "Apparent" mind you.

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Did I? Did I say hey Deadspin you are griefer. You are however representing them because you are defending a policy where no rules or fields of engagement are in place. You support a system where all civilians are actual feasible targets of entertainment. Does that make you a griefer by association? That is up to you to decide. I never called you a Griefer, that is your assumption.

So if you don't align yourself as a griefer then why are you opposed to this possible new system? It will only legitimize an entire profession in the game. It will only increase the risk versus reward factor that this game is lacking for an entire playstyle. You may PVP in leagues or duels or whatnot. However this has never been about PVP versus PVE. This issue is PVE and PVP Versus Griefers. Period. Anyone attempting to muddy difference between the 2 are just hiding behind a technicality because they have no other argument.

Don't align your views with theirs if you dont want to be associated with them. Again thats your fault not mine.

What in your mind is griefing? Is your idea of pvp a consent only , invitation thing, wherein no freighters or other squishy ships could be shot at?

 

[Mohrgan]

What do you mean "that I care to admit to"? I asked the question out of genuine curiosity. See this is what I meant, the apparent hostility from the anti-pvp crowd. "Apparent" mind you.

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What in your mind is griefing? Is your idea of pvp a consent only , invitation thing, wherein no freighters or other squishy ships could be shot at?

For some one who names themselves Dialectic, you are oddly blind to the various 'truths' all around you.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Which one?

The Distant World Crew. These fine CMDRs were in a private group.

 

[W.T.Sherman]

I keep coming back even though I know nothing will change. I'm insane.

 

[Zambrick]

What do you mean "that I care to admit to"? I asked the question out of genuine curiosity. See this is what I meant, the apparent hostility from the anti-pvp crowd. "Apparent" mind you.

You seem to have an aweful lot to say on this subject. Especially since you have not had a stake in the game for more than a week. From your constant and instant replies to every post in this Thread, you have to have less than 4 hours in the game up until this point.

So again you have nothing to offer or you are hiding behind a secondary Forum account in order to run interference for your other posts. Nobody this new to any game could feel as strongly as you come across. Heck most people dont even join the game forum for a couple weeks or months after starting a new game. That is why I find everything that you say suspiciously topical and completely biased. How can you have a bias when you have no experience? You can't.

You have nothing to add or say in opposition or agreement to this subject. There is a newcomer forum for new players.

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For some one who names themselves Dialectic, you are oddly blind to the various 'truths' all around you.

Which is the reason I am sure he or she is just a secondary account for one of the other people still posting in this thread. Could be paranoia, but other thread trolls have done it in the past on this games boards.

 

[mossfoot]

What do you mean "that I care to admit to"? I asked the question out of genuine curiosity. See this is what I meant, the apparent hostility from the anti-pvp crowd. "Apparent" mind you.

See, I'm not anti-pvp. I don't look for it, but I enjoy it when it happens. I've run away, I've stood my ground, I've won, and I've lost. I've been pirated by honorable foes and griefed by people who just wanted lulz.

I prefer to play in Open because it's got chances for more random and interesting encounters. I took a noob I randomly met under my wing and even loaned him some platinum to help get his feet off the ground (loaned 'cause we agreed he'd pay me back - in the end I had him escort my unarmed T6 through a hostile CG as payment).

I say "care to admit to" because the tone of your posts conveys the idea that caring about C&P and Karma is limited to anti-PvPers, crybabys, carebears, what have you.

I like Open. I like risk. I like PvP and I like PvE. What I don't like are those who exploit the game mechanics to ruin other people's experiences and hide behind those mechanics as a shield to justify their actions.

As I've said elsewhere, I don't think the griefer issue can be solved through in-game mechanics alone, because of the knock-on effects it might have on regular PvP. Therefore I don't have an issue with out-of-game mechanics brought in to combat it.

It's perfectly fine to question how effective those mechanics might be - but it has to be tried before problems can be found and improved. Those arguing that they'll raise the black flag and go on a griefing spree if this happens are welcome to. You're just being beta testers, and hopefully the system will deal with you quickly and efficiently.

As intended.

 

[Vasco Sapien]

This title..

Elite: Harmless - Karma System aka "be the Tamagotchi"

Is this suggesting that a Karma system which would make crime harder in Elite, somehow make the game less dangerous and should therefore be rebranded as Elite: Harmless.

Because, what this thread title suggests to me is that those who attack weaker players and weaker ships (which is typical with the Pirate crowd) like an easy ride. Because a Karma system would in theory make the game harder for those who victimize others while offering an element of protection to those who do not.... or those who are new to the game.

As the game stands right now without a C&P system and with no consequence to predatory game play behaviour, It is litterally Elite: Harmless for the pirates. a consequence free, shooting fish in a barrel wonderland.
A C&P system willl swap the ballance making the game Dangerous and hopefully more interesting for those who choose to play a criminal lifestyle and safer for those who do not.

Right now the game is Harmless to the PVP crowd who choose to attack PVE players, does this not get boring for them?

A Karma system will not stop the act of Piracy against other players it will simply stack consequences against them, adding challenge making the game Dangerous.