Explorers : would you consider giving up on the infinite honk for...?

[Spyro Jance]

I'd keep the honk - after all it only points out the location of objects in the current system.

The next step would be to scan each stellar body - this should only provide general information regarding location, size, general composition and mass.

The next step would be more involved, requiring mapping the surface of each stellar body. As this could potentially be a time consuming exercise, it would be nice to be able to leave a satellite to do this while you leave to scan and set up satellites on other bodies.

Lastly, the mapping process might identify geological (or anomalous) features worth further investigation, and require a surface geological survey.

This could be actioned either by using the SRV (hopefully a geological survey model capable of taking core samples) or maybe by sending a down a probe.

Once atmospheric planets with ecosystems are introduced, we could also perform ecological surveys, and take samples of various life forms, from micro-organisms to flora and fauna.

If each tier of the above exploration hierarchy has a reward, you can then let explorers doing as much or as little as they are comfortable with.
Frontier could then introduce a dynamic mission generator to "plug the gaps" - i.e. Universal Cartographics can generate survey missions for other commanders to fulfil.

 

[Godsailsaqueen]

My first discoveries were done using the parallax method without an advanced discovery scanner.
If you wanted to become Elite then it would take forever but it was a fun mechanic.

I've also done that. That felt so cool. But it could use tools to help you achieve that. There must be an equilibrium between godly instant scanning technology and 15th century visual navigation techniques...

I'd keep the honk - after all it only points out the location of objects in the current system.

The next step would be to scan each stellar body - this should only provide general information regarding location, size, general composition and mass.

The next step would be more involved, requiring mapping the surface of each stellar body. As this could potentially be a time consuming exercise, it would be nice to be able to leave a satellite to do this while you leave to scan and set up satellites on other bodies.

Lastly, the mapping process might identify geological (or anomalous) features worth further investigation, and require a surface geological survey.

This could be actioned either by using the SRV (hopefully a geological survey model capable of taking core samples) or maybe by sending a down a probe.

Once atmospheric planets with ecosystems are introduced, we could also perform ecological surveys, and take samples of various life forms, from micro-organisms to flora and fauna.

If each tier of the above exploration hierarchy has a reward, you can then let explorers doing as much or as little as they are comfortable with.
Frontier could then introduce a dynamic mission generator to "plug the gaps" - i.e. Universal Cartographics can generate survey missions for other commanders to fulfil.

cool thoughts also.

 

[Aura Lorell]

Now that the time has come (or has been announced, let's say) for the reworking of core mechanics, and getting them closer to the original concepts...
Let's talk exploration.

Would you be ready to give up on your infinite scanner range and exhaustive galaxy map for more rewarding probing / navigation gameplay? Rewarding in terms of money/rank/whatever else of course, but also in terms of feeling. Of course you can't be left in the dark and just downgrade to the intermediate discovery scanner now - it would feel like artifical handicap. But there could be modules that detect unfound gravitationnal perturbations... probes to launch that would detect planetary bodies and their surfaces, even system-scaled scanners ala SRV... To an extent, there could be secret systems in galmap, for you to find, with one-knows-what-tool.

I reckon some things can't be changed. You can't remove something the player base is used to - for nothing at least. I'm just trying to know if that particular godly honk and the ease of discovery is that important to you. Not saying exploring is easy though - but it's more a matter of endurance, most of the time, than navigational flair (ok, tbh there is true navigationnal flair in certain expeditions reaching really isolated stars).

Your thoughts?

I think replacing the ADS is a terrible idea to be honest, I'm sorry. It would slow down the exploration by putting an artificial time sink that if you look at it in terms of comparing it with the galaxy size and number of systems out there makes it looks disproportionate and almost impossible (think: 400 billion systems, we've discovered a 0.01% even with ADS).

For me personally it would make me stop exploring entirely and potentially stop playing the game. My exploration style is to reach extreme ends of the galaxy and navigate in scarce areas using jumponium. Replacing the ADS will essentially force me to spend a lot of time in each system, even the ones I don't care about. Add to that the scanning (especially when I need to gather jumponium) and suddenly the feeling that you are not going anywhere is prevalent and that will kill the joy from exploration.

I think instead of taking away an existing mechanic, it's better if you enhance other mechanics. For example planetary exploration can be enhanced greatly and many people have offered very nice solutions and proposals.

 

[thundernuns]

If it was limited to 100,000ls I probably wouldn't care, I'm not gonna fly that far for anything tbh.

If there was something like a telescope module where you could look at other nearby stars and see-how far away they are, their star type, maybe how many large bodies are orbiting it- I would be all over that. It may need additional fleshing out for gameplay.

Speaking of gameplay, how about exploration missions, i.e go to this sector and scan 20 stars, any terraformable worlds or ELWs will give a bonus

 

[Godsailsaqueen]

I think replacing the ADS is a terrible idea to be honest, I'm sorry. It would slow down the exploration by putting an artificial time sink that if you look at it in terms of comparing it with the galaxy size and number of systems out there makes it looks disproportionate and almost impossible (think: 400 billion systems, we've discovered a 0.01% even with ADS).

For me personally it would make me stop exploring entirely and potentially stop playing the game. My exploration style is to reach extreme ends of the galaxy and navigate in scarce areas using jumponium. Replacing the ADS will essentially force me to spend a lot of time in each system, even the ones I don't care about. Add to that the scanning (especially when I need to gather jumponium) and suddenly the feeling that you are not going anywhere is prevalent and that will kill the joy from exploration.

I think instead of taking away an existing mechanic, it's better if you enhance other mechanics. For example planetary exploration can be enhanced greatly and many people have offered very nice solutions and proposals.

Thanks for your input. It wouldn't suit different styles (I'm starting to understand), and the title was willingly provocative - I do not advocate for the removing of anything, but it's cool to know the ADS is cool to most of you.

It boils down to personal preferences - I personally don't care for reaching complete mapping of certain large areas of space, I would be more into spending more time in fewer systems. I would also like that these discovered and fully mapped systems, one at a time, would permanently contribute to galmap for everyone. It would still count exploration cash if you scanned already explored areas, but I would like a feeling of contribution to everybody's map. Ingame - no 3rd party tools.

But I don't want to impose anything, obviously. And judging on your playstyle, it's clear you need ADS.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I like having the system displayed in it's entirety with a simple mechanism. Any mechanism that would create additional actions to just revealing what is in a system would go old pretty fast because of the amount of times it had to be applied.

What I would like is after knowing the system, there'd be points of interest to be spotted very shortly after entering that system. That would make people stop in their tracks and go see what the anomaly is. I'd like more information, not less. I'd like in depth information about a system, not having to jump through hoops to gain a cursory understanding of it.

 

[Crook]

I think there should be more investigative skill required for exploration. Let's say a star has more oxygen in it's composition than the last one, it means there may be more of a possibility of water worlds or earth likes, and you scan an earth like and it has evidence of asteroid bombardment - you can be rewarded for finding life remnants in the asteroids / comets flying around.

I know this is a lot to create and link together, but I think there should be some analysis required to go deeper.

Also, what about filing reports about interesting bodies for further reward. So you'd have to list the elements present, or perform spectroscopy on a sun to determine the elements present from Fraunhofer lines, which you'd have to determine yourself or fly into the corona for samples which are stored in your ship to be turned over with the data. You might even have to perform mass spec on the corona samples etc. Then data on orbital velocity and other associated data. Bouncing radar off and calculating a bit based on your own SC velocity.

A bit of analysis rather than ' just get close '. Yes that takes much longer to do (is it more grind?) But magnify the payout and people could still go honking and do basic scans for distance, but others could stay in one place and analyse the place in greater detail for the same reward. it would be nice if everything was made to be scanned in detail, with believable kit - so you can do spectroscopy on asteroids as long as you fire a laser at them or blast them, or collect rocks for mass spec or other science suite modules that you can buy.

So, in conclusion - add a science module and have loads of systems you can put in it. Mass spec, Spectroscope, NMR, etc ect.

 

[Godsailsaqueen]

I like having the system displayed in it's entirety with a simple mechanism. Any mechanism that would create additional actions to just revealing what is in a system would go old pretty fast because of the amount of times it had to be applied.

What I would like is after knowing the system, there'd be points of interest to be spotted very shortly after entering that system. That would make people stop in their tracks and go see what the anomaly is. I'd like more information, not less. I'd like in depth information about a system, not having to jump through hoops to gain a cursory understanding of it.

fair point. At this point I have to say I should not have started like that hehe. Obviously the infinite honk feels a little too much served on a plate with silver rack to my personnal taste - and my solutions were primarily aimed at fixing that, which is my problem, I see . But I should have said that everything could be just a bonus from the get-go.

I think there should be more investigative skill required for exploration. Let's say a star has more oxygen in it's composition than the last one, it means there may be more of a possibility of water worlds or earth likes, and you scan an earth like and it has evidence of asteroid bombardment - you can be rewarded for finding life remnants in the asteroids / comets flying around.

I know this is a lot to create and link together, but I think there should be some analysis required to go deeper.

Also, what about filing reports about interesting bodies for further reward. So you'd have to list the elements present, or perform spectroscopy on a sun to determine the elements present from Fraunhofer lines, which you'd have to determine yourself or fly into the corona for samples which are stored in your ship to be turned over with the data. You might even have to perform mass spec on the corona samples etc. Then data on orbital velocity and other associated data. Bouncing radar off and calculating a bit based on your own SC velocity.

A bit of analysis rather than ' just get close '. Yes that takes much longer to do (is it more grind?) But magnify the payout and people could still go honking and do basic scans for distance, but others could stay in one place and analyse the place in greater detail for the same reward. it would be nice if everything was made to be scanned in detail, with believable kit - so you can do spectroscopy on asteroids as long as you fire a laser at them or blast them, or collect rocks for mass spec or other science suite modules that you can buy.

So, in conclusion - add a science module and have loads of systems you can put in it. Mass spec, Spectroscope, NMR, etc ect.

all cool with that, we must be relatives.

 

[JonSnowman]

Considering that 99% of the stuff you find is worthless, no I would not want to change it.

And as stated, you still have to go there to do the surface scan.

Its fine.

 

[Morbad]

Would you be ready to give up on your infinite scanner range and exhaustive galaxy map for more rewarding probing / navigation gameplay?

Yes.

 

[Godsailsaqueen]

Considering that 99% of the stuff you find is worthless, no I would not want to change it.

And as stated, you still have to go there to do the surface scan.

Its fine.

Ok on the beginning, I wouldn't say it's "fine" though. It lacks some things - the current scanning is lackluster. Ok for not removing anything, but ok for building on that also.

 

[DrNoesis]

I'd suggest scrapping the current system and reinventing it a little.


Rather than rely on "range" as a determining factor for scanners respective efficiency in detecting objects, instead substitute "mass"

The minute you do this, the variations in different scanner types lend themselves to making the system far more interesting.

Imagine for example that a basic scanner, rather than having an effective range of 1000ls instead is only able to detect objects with a mass roughly equivalent to 1 Earth mass and above, for example, or perhaps cannot reliably detect anything smaller than a star, with a 60% chance of giving a false reading entirely.

It doesnt sound like much, but the impact on exploration would change the process for explorers. There's a benefit to actually visiting all the signals your disco scanner pulls up - you find out what is actually there and what's a blip and actually "map" the system. It could be a way to make some kinds of USS's fit in for explorers, etc etc

The most important thing though, is that it introduces a bit of variety for explorers beyond the current "honk, scoop, jump" process.

The only downside, however, is that I've got no idea how you'd get a payout for just honking and jumping through a system like that.... :S

 

[S3B4ST13N]

If you haven't seen this thread - you need to now:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/307770-A-year-worth-of-Elite-photoshop-concepts!

the user ToSoCo has started only five threads.

The thread was locked this because it was 14 pages of "This is awesome do this" to bump the thread
Terrific proposals for exploration, science missions, all sorts of really cool non- combat stuff that the game NEEDS.

I suggest you examine the work of ToSoCo. For locking that thread.

I get why, just Frontier need to see it again sometimes.


And YES you can have my big scanner and my Elite rank, just make exploration good.

I love his idea around the utility SRV in space and working odd jobs at an outpost to earn enough money to rebuy your ship.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

The only downside, however, is that I've got no idea how you'd get a payout for just honking and jumping through a system like that.... :S

*made up numbers <- whoever is reading this, please read that again*

Honk 'n Run:
Honk: 50,000cr + 10,000cr per estimated body in system
Star type: up to 50,000cr
Star rarity: up to 100,000cr (usually dependent on the area)
Star size, density: up to 25,000cr

Max payout on highly sought after star with 40 bodies in the system: 625,000cr

*again, made up numbers*

Not related to what I quoted, but my mind started to wander:
This would require individual scanning, and is basically a lot of work; but hard work should be compensated with a large payout.

Spoiler

Detailed scanning:
Planet type: up to 100,000cr
Planet density, composition: up to 50,000cr + up to 25,000cr bonus for rarity of planet surface sample ( land, scoop with srv, store ) ( this could be expanded to including a "science station" on board larger ships with a host of gameplay related shenanigans)
Planet size: up to 50,000cr
Number of natural satellites: 10,000cr each

Other bodies ( asteroids, comets, belts ): up to 50,000cr

Special:
Black holes, dying stars, neutron stars: up to 100,000cr

Discovery of ELW's: 500,000cr
If ELW can sustain humanity (not all ELW's can support human life): 250,000cr bonus
ELW tagged for potential human settlement: 50,000cr
World is colonised: 600,000cr finders fee bonus.


Intelligent life discoveries:
Alien civilisations ( space-faring or not ): starting from 5,000,000cr
Alien ships, buildings: starting from 10,000,000cr

Complete and totally unrelated:

Spoiler

Frontier could implement a "space lanes" system; where some lanes are more dangerous than others. It could be an explorers job to map out safe and quick space lanes.
The mapping of a space lane could be a job acquired from a very particular type of broker at a station only found in a major factions capital system; the pay out would be huge, but the job would be extremely long and require a lot of work. The explorer would not only get a large payout when he returns to the bubble from his space lane voyage, but would also be able to cash in on his discoveries.

 

[eadghe]

I think I wrote this somewhere before but what I could imagine is that the infinite honk shows all the planets but just as a place-holder with no graphical texture what so ever. One needs to get at least a second level scan to reveal this. This would make hunting for ELW and WW much more interesting. Additionally I would like to see the different zones around the stars, i.e. hot, habitable, cold which give a rough indication where the different planet types can be found. A detailed scan of the star could make those zones more accurate so one would actually gain something from scanning the star.

 

[verminstar]

No I dont particularly like this idea as it merely locks an already basic mechanic behind an even bigger time wall to achieve the same result.

Also, adding anything at all to exploration is building on dodgy foundations what with the beigification bugs.

Doesnt really get any more complicated than that Im afraid ^

 

[drty]

EVE style probing, please.

 

[nanite2000]

I would like to repeat what I suggested in another thread, where we not only keep the infinite honk, but enable it for all scanner types. Instead, use different mechanics to differentiate scanner types:

1. Basic Discovery Scanner: Scans very quickly (3 secs), but does not retrieve body type details. Essentially, it will only tell you how many bodies are in a system, and how far away they are. The system map would show the blank/wireframe body surfaces that we saw a few releases back.
Use-case: Traders, bounty hunters, mercenaries. Anyone who values speed, doesn't care about the specific planet details, and spends most of their time in space anyway. Negates the need for Nav Beacon scans, and allows you to find your mission goals and StarPorts quickly.

2. Intermediate Discovery Scanner: Scans a little bit slower (5 secs) and costs a fair bit more than the Basic Discovery Scanner in (1). Works exactly the same as our Advanced Discover Scanner works in 2.3 i.e. Low resolution planet surfaces are visible, but not the planet surface map. You can tell the different world types apart (as you do now), but close up surface detail is not visible until you do a surface scan.
Use-case: New, or cash-strapped, explorers who just want to get out there. Mission runners from (1) who have a bit more money to spend.

3. Advanced Discovery Scanner: The slowest scan type (10 secs), and most expensive. Does everything the Intermediate Discover Scanner does in (2), but also reveals the detailed surface maps.
Use-case: Explorers, or anyone not under strict time constraints, and who need to see surface details from far away.

The detailed surface scanner could then be used to get material types, body details, name, 'first discovered' tags, and (hopefully) a means to identify POI's.

My feeling is that an explorer would travel over 100k LY to a planet with interesting surface features, as long as they know there's something there.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commanders!

For what it's worth, I personally wouldn't mind removing the infinite honk, just as I'd like to see the removal of the basic stellar scan that forces you to fly close to get any data. I would like to see processes that were a little more involved (and cool looking/feeling) with regards to Commanders actually having to do something, whilst minimising uncessessary super cruise travel time. But this is just me musing. Like the karma system, exploration (and extraction) is something that we'll hopefully be getting into in some more depth in the forums.

 

[FrogsFriend]

Hello Commanders!

For what it's worth, I personally wouldn't mind removing the infinite honk, just as I'd like to see the removal of the basic stellar scan that forces you to fly close to get any data. I would like to see processes that were a little more involved (and cool looking/feeling) with regards to Commanders actually having to do something, whilst minimising uncessessary super cruise travel time. But this is just me musing. Like the karma system, exploration (and extraction) is something that we'll hopefully be getting into in some more depth in the forums.

Thanks Sandro, some more Cmdr involvement in the process would be a good thing, and more 'cool' never goes amiss. Looking forward to it.