The AX nerf problem is that there is no obvious reason why, please explain...

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

You and I both know this adaptation thing is just an excuse for the nerf. I don't accept that explanation. If a dev comes and says "we always planned for the CG weapons to be 'adapted to' within a few days" I still won't believe it, because that would be such an incredibly stupid piece of game design that no dev team worth it's salt would even consider, at least not without making it delivered in an exciting way, rather than confusing everyone by saying one stat would be altered to fix an issue and another stat ended up getting changed and suddenly nobody is having any fun anymore (oh, I can SCAN them, why didn't you say!? That's so EXCITING!)

I don't think you understand how FD operates. Other than that *other* space game (*cough*, sorry), they plan ahead. And it looks like plan ahead. And I know, that's why for lot of players it feels like a nerf because it is so abrupt. But honestly, take a look what people did with Thargoids and do you really think they required that nerf or that wasn't intentional?

They planned this change - 1 week, Thargoids adapt, new weapons arrive, new challenges. And I get it, some people might not on board with such on rails experience. It has it's problems. And I hope Ed really meant when he said they will get this feedback into account.

 

[Aashenfox]

I don't think you understand how FD operates. Other than that *other* space game (*cough*, sorry), they plan ahead. And it looks like plan ahead. And I know, that's why for lot of players it feels like a nerf because it is so aprupt. But honestly, take a look what people did with Thargoids and do you really think they required that nerf or that wasn't intentional?

They planned this change - 1 week, Thargoids adapt, new weapons arrive, new challenges. And I get it, some people might not on board with such on rails experience. It has it's problems. And I hope Ed really meant when he said they will get this feedback into account.

I understand that they patently fail at planning ahead on a regular basis (though I have no doubt that the narrative behind Elite: Dangerous is rich and has deep planning, I wish there were a better way of conveying it to players, but that's another post that I won't be making), BUT, I really don't hold it against them. There are many things (topics) that people shout about every day. I'm not those people and I have no other issue with the game that I think warrants it's own topic on the forum. I usually make suggestions (you surely seen a few of my more prominent threads, you know what I'm about). This is the first time in over two years with teh game that I'm actually quite angry about something. And as others have said, and you intimated in your post, it's the HANDLING of the issue that is the real problem. Thanks for posting level-headedly, I start to really appreciate your posts, even when we don't agree, you always stay cool and don't get rude or offensive, we need more like you. Rep.

 

[Achibot]

I don't think you understand how FD operates. Other than that *other* space game (*cough*, sorry), they plan ahead. And it looks like plan ahead. And I know, that's why for lot of players it feels like a nerf because it is so abrupt. But honestly, take a look what people did with Thargoids and do you really think they required that nerf or that wasn't intentional?

They planned this change - 1 week, Thargoids adapt, new weapons arrive, new challenges. And I get it, some people might not on board with such on rails experience. It has it's problems. And I hope Ed really meant when he said they will get this feedback into account.

If they had planned it (correctly at least) there wouldn't have been a need for 2 patches inside 7 days. If they always intended that Thargoids adapt to the weapons they could have coded it in beforehand so that for every x Thargoids killed they got y% tougher. If there was a plan here it was implemented such that to all external appearances it looks to be an over-reaction to a combat meta they had not anticipated. Despite only having to test 1 weapon against 1 alien type, I might add.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I understand that they patently fail at planning ahead on a regular basis, BUT, I really don't hold it against them. There are many things (topics) that people shout about every day. I'm not those people and I have no other issue with the game that I think warrants it's own topic on the forum. I usually make suggestions (you surely seen a few of my more prominent threads, you know what I'm about). This is the first time in over two years with teh game that I'm actually quite angry about something. And as others have said, and you intimated in your post, it's the HANDLING of the issue that is the real problem. Thanks for posting level-headedly, I start to really appreciate your posts, even when we don't agree, you always stay cool and don't get rude or offensive, we need more like you. Rep.

I always try to stay cool because we are here to enjoy this community and game . No point for grudges, real life is though enough as it is. Have a nice day you too. Let's hope FD learns from this experience and feedback

 

[Aashenfox]

If they had planned it (correctly at least) there wouldn't have been a need for 2 patches inside 7 days. If they always intended that Thargoids adapt to the weapons they could have coded it in beforehand so that for every x Thargoids killed they got y% tougher. If there was a plan here it was implemented such that to all external appearances it looks to be an over-reaction to a combat meta they had not anticipated. Despite only having to test 1 weapon against 1 alien type, I might add.

Well said, it's an obvious knee jerk nerf. I think its fair of us to ask exactly what the issue was that warranted it.

 

[Trafalgar Law]

Yeah OK (I've also been doing some more background reading on this so I'm a bit better informed now). Personally I really don't have too much of an issue with the fact that the nerf was actually to the missiles while the Galnet/spin was that it was the Thargoids who were adapting. For whatever reason (more on that in a mo), FD decided that missiles vs. Thargoids needed re-balancing. I'm willing to believe that there were technical problems (code is complicated in big projects like this) with nerfing the Thargoids themselves (perhaps their stat's are carefully balanced against against a whole load of other things that can't be changed without huge ramifications, our ships for example) so the obvious thing was to nerf the missiles.

"But hey, you can't easily spin a weapons nerf, let's go with the idea that the Thargoids are adapting - cool! Many people will see through it of course but we're cheeky chappies who dunk biscuits and drink beer with our community and everyone will know it's all a bit tongue in cheek and laugh about it ... right?".

OK - perhaps they misjudged that a tad (some of us still liked it tho). As to the reason for the nerf (and more importantly the magnitude ... 1/50th of what they used to be!?! is that true or hyperbole/speculation?), yeah that's kind of a mystery. My hope (and this is where that word "communication" crops again - sheesh, just post in here FD and calm these people down) is that it was meant to be a slight re-balance (maybe 1/2 rather than 1/50th ... are you SURE it's 1/50th?!?). They've made a teensy balls up with a hurried patch and it will be corrected soon. I do get your disappointment tho - although I haven't been fighting the 'goids myself the joy from the PVE crowd after the initial release of the AX weapons was palpable and crushing that joy so quickly and effectively does seem like a real shame.

Phew ... it's warm in here with my coat on, maybe I'll take it off again.

o7

It is possible to spin a weapons nerf. Something like this would have done the job:

Thargoids "adapting", when the stats of the missile changes? They could have explained that in a better and more logical way:

"Previously warheads for the AX-Missiles were made out of the only known substance able to damage Thargoid tissue, Guardian Relicts. Guardian Relics, being part of the Guardian's communication network, contain their own extremely strong energy source lasting for countless millennia already. The energy contained inside these crystal-like objects being so vast, that it can even damage Thargoid vessels, when fired at a high enough velocities."

"However the recent spike in usage of Relics lead to a severe drain on this very finite resource. Relics are no longer available in large enough quantities. AEGIS therefore decided to use different warheads inside the AX-Missiles, as we want to preserve the last remaining Relics for future studies."

"Our new warheads are made out of a compound, closely resembling the Relics. Initial tests show that these new warheads, while being effective against Thargoids, are not yet on par with the effectiveness of Guardian Relics. Therefore we need the help of the galactic community to test out these new warheads and bring back tissue samples, so we can improve the composition of our new warheads in the future. AEGIS believes, that we are able achieve an effectiveness even higher than the previous one."

"In the long term this will also enable us to remove the limit of AX-Missile systems, previously in place to preserve Relic supplies, as well as providing larger and higher capacity AX-Missile systems and the ability to synthesize said warheads without the need of large industrial facilities."

The magnitude of the nerf is also worrying and has almost certainly contributed to the manure-storm.

 

[CMDR Dreamstate]

I'm clearly missing something ... I'll get my coat and leave you fella's to it.

I don't think half the people using this forum understands sarcasm

 

[Aashenfox]

I don't think half the people using this forum understands sarcasm

He wasn't being sarcastic, unless you mean someone else... I know context is hard to convey, but the content of the follow up post causes it to make no sense that the original statement would have been sarcastic. I think Alec was intoning his general approval of making Thargoids harder, as am I, but I could be wrong, hope I'm not speaking out of turn Alec.

P.S. Alec? What's going on with your rep??

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

If they had planned it (correctly at least) there wouldn't have been a need for 2 patches inside 7 days. If they always intended that Thargoids adapt to the weapons they could have coded it in beforehand so that for every x Thargoids killed they got y% tougher. If there was a plan here it was implemented such that to all external appearances it looks to be an over-reaction to a combat meta they had not anticipated. Despite only having to test 1 weapon against 1 alien type, I might add.

First, seven days are their update cycle. Second, they have patches lined up for other things. FD always plan three or four patches for big update as things tend to shaky. That's really not a string pitch for knee jerk patch there.

 

[Alec Turner]

It is possible to spin a weapons nerf. Something like this would have done the job:

It's a bit wordy.

 

[CMDR Dreamstate]

P.S. Alec? What's going on with your rep??

Where's Alec's rep dude? Dude, where's my rep? xD

 

[Codger]

P.S. Alec? What's going on with your rep??

You didn't hear? He was ejected from the docking station for smuggling fertilizer. (Hover over his rep bar and you'll see )

 

[Alec Turner]

He wasn't being sarcastic, unless you mean someone else... I know context is hard to convey, but the content of the follow up post causes it to make no sense that the original statement would have been sarcastic. I think Alec was intoning his general approval of making Thargoids harder, as am I, but I could be wrong, hope I'm not speaking out of turn Alec.

I wasn't being sarcastic at any point. Nor do I have strong views on whether Thargoids should be made harder or not. I just didn't have a massive problem with it (originally) and, after further reading, wanted to convey my thoughts on the subject to Aashenfox.

I mean, LOL, if I came out and said that I really approved of giving the AX weapons a massive nerf, can you imagine the amount of negative rep I'd receive.

P.S. Alec? What's going on with your rep??

Doh!

 

[Trafalgar Law]

You didn't hear? He was ejected from the docking station for smuggling fertilizer. (Hover over his rep bar and you'll see )

Yes he was caught by Brett C along with Sleutelbos and dealt with appropriately.

 

[Aashenfox]

I wasn't being sarcastic at any point. Nor do I have strong views on whether Thargoids should be made harder or not. I just didn't have a massive problem with it (originally) and, after further reading, wanted to convey my thoughts on the subject to Aashenfox.

I mean, LOL, if I came out and said that I really approved of giving the AX weapons a massive nerf, can you imagine the amount of negative rep I'd receive.



Doh!

To be fair, you hadn't changed your signature at that point. I lol'd though.

 

[Alec Turner]

To be fair, you hadn't changed your signature at that point. I lol'd though.

Normality has been restored. I blame TJ.

 

[Achilles7]

Frontier were right to buff the Thargoids - as end-game PvE combat, Thargoids need to be scary - however their weapon of choice ie to become 'AX murderers' (double pun before 9am - just bow down before me!) is questionable.

They should, imo, have made the Thargoid vessels faster than all but the fastest stripped down human ships & more evasive to stop the insult to exciting varied combat that is reverski!

...Bla bla bla...

Disclaimer: I'm playing Devil's Advocate...as my previous post alluded [*ie the one above!*], this is not my own horrific opinion!

I think maybe you missed the point there. The adjustment was made to the weapon itself. So not only is the weapon less effective against Thargoids, it's also less effective against human ships.

If they had made the adjustment to the thargoid ships directly, and not adjusted the weapons, then it would have had the effect they wanted. The Thargoids would have "adapted", and the missles effect on human ships would have remained unchanged.

The way they did this, they basically made the AX missles completely useless against EVERYTHING. Do you see now why some people have an issue with the exact way they implemented this nerf? We're not saying the Thargoids couldn't/shouldn't have adapted to be tougher. We're saying that the change should have been to the Thargoid ships themselves, not to the values on the missle.

Grrrr, sorry I didn't see your post earlier - one of the issues with posting once or twice per day [big grin]

No, I didn't miss the point - it was a tongue-in-cheek defence of Frontier! As someone who has solo'd three Thargoids, I'm acutely aware of how the current changes were implemented - I was happy with the damage levels of the missiles originally & my top post^ gives my view on how Frontier should have improved the Thargoids combat effectiveness in light of the very easy technique & low skill fixed weapon ability needed to defeat them ie. every solo kill I have managed - & observed, for that matter - has used either prolonged reverski or boost-FAOFF 180 flip-reverse rinsed & repeated.

As the above posts demonstrate, I agree with the general consensus in principle - although the effect on human ships is a side issue; imo basically a red herring in the argument! AX missiles would be a meh solution in either PvP or PvE since they cannot currently be engineered & limit choice - an issue I brought up when the specialist Thargoid weapons were first announced ie the conflict of loadouts designed for regular targets or Thargoids, meaning that these two 'separate' activities were likely to be essentially mutually exclusive & even if Frontier made sure that the weapons were equally useful against human ships, this would be terrible gameplay as there would be no choice in your weapon loadout for general all-content play.

The damage nerf looks very like the lazy option...although we are not privy to Frontier's 2.4 master plan, of course. It may turn out to be a non-issue in the medium/long term, although in the short term it is undeniably, pretty clumsy!

 

[JetsonRING]

IMO it is because, even though the 2.4 trailer was basically a primer on how to kill flower-ships, FDev really did not want players to be able to kill them. What FDev wanted was a credit-sink. FDev wanted CMDRs to go up against the flower-ships in their expensive Anacondas and Cutters with ineffective weapons and get the doo-doo kicked out of them but, the 2.4 trailer WAS a primer on how to kill flower ships and so CMDRs quickly developed effective ways of killing flower-ships. Since this botches up FDev's storyline and credit-sink plans, they uber-nerfed the weapons, effectively making the flower-ships invulnerable again.

 

[Aashenfox]

IMO it is because, even though the 2.4 trailer was basically a primer on how to kill flower-ships, FDev really did not want players to be able to kill them. What FDev wanted was a credit-sink. FDev wanted CMDRs to go up against the flower-ships in their expensive Anacondas and Cutters with ineffective weapons and get the doo-doo kicked out of them but, the 2.4 trailer WAS a primer on how to kill flower ships and so CMDRs quickly developed effective ways of killing flower-ships. Since this botches up FDev's storyline and credit-sink plans, they uber-nerfed the weapons, effectively making the flower-ships invulnerable again.

Fdev will be pleased to know that my cynicism has not reached levels even approaching yours yet. Lol. I pray my faith is not unjustified and you are wrong.

 

[Terry Bruge-Hiplo]

IMO it is because, even though the 2.4 trailer was basically a primer on how to kill flower-ships, FDev really did not want players to be able to kill them. What FDev wanted was a credit-sink. FDev wanted CMDRs to go up against the flower-ships in their expensive Anacondas and Cutters with ineffective weapons and get the doo-doo kicked out of them but, the 2.4 trailer WAS a primer on how to kill flower ships and so CMDRs quickly developed effective ways of killing flower-ships. Since this botches up FDev's storyline and credit-sink plans, they uber-nerfed the weapons, effectively making the flower-ships invulnerable again.

Er... have you been attending that mental gymnastics class long?

We had CGs with thargoid parts as one of the materials to hand in. Of course they wanted/expected us to kill them.

Let's assume the video was a primer on how to kill them (again, , it depicted ships attacking a thargoid getting effed up). Why would they give us a primer on how to kill them if they didn't want us to?