"Beyond" free for Horizon owners - LEP musings

[lenna]

I don't think that the general idea of "I'd still like to get some paid updates for free because I own the LEP" is nonsense, I think people sharpening their pitchforks because the showed content will be free is nonsense. If it turns out that there will never be a paid update in the lifetime of the product, yes, people will have every right to complain. Currently they don't.

The fundamental issue is with perceptions, we all were under the impression Horizons would just cover a single Season of updates (notionally those labelled 2.x) and fully expected that v3.x, v4.x, and other future hypothetical seasons would each be subject to some form of pay wall. FD of course are well with-in their rights to expand the scope of what is covered by a given "Season" license BUT it is not unreasonable (nor nonsense) to express concern over the potential implications of such scope creep.

I may not share the concerns of some of my fellow LEP owners but I believe I fully appreciate their viewpoint. Disregarding their concerns as nonsense is both foolhardy and disrespectful IMO - even if their concerns are perhaps unwarranted.

 

[Zeeman]

They can also now can *invest*. You know, that thing developers and publishers did back in the day when developing new things. Not just falling back to cash from current sales.

And FD can invest. If they will feel ED is ready for space legs for example - they will do it, and make no mistake, it will be glorious.

At the moment now it isn't a time or place. This isn't a race people.

Also such threads is why FD avoids to sell LEP on regular basis.

In all honesty, I think I am more positive about ED's future right now than I have been since 1.0

Z...

 

[lenna]

In all honesty, I think I am more positive about ED's future right now than I have been since 1.0

Z...

I am less positive about ED's future but I would be happy to be proven wrong... the talk about Squadrons and Fleet Carriers stink of a shift towards "raid" class mechanics and that would be an extremely bad move IMO. Providing FD keep things sufficiently in check and do not move too far down that particular slope I do not think there will be much of an issue BUT I have seen how those kinds of mechanics are normally added and am not optimistic about the general pattern of (d)evolution that results from it.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I am less positive about ED's future but I would be happy to be proven wrong... the talk about Squadrons and Fleet Carriers stink of a shift towards "raid" class mechanics and that would be an extremely bad move IMO. Providing FD keep things sufficiently in check and do not move too far down that particular slope I do not think there will be much of an issue BUT I have seen how those kinds of mechanics are normally added and am not optimistic about the general pattern of (d)evolution that results from it.

Yeah I am really worried about squadrons it's yet another new feature leapfrogging the missing DDF stuff. The rest of the announced stuff all sounded cool tho. Improved lighting and shaders, better mining, more exploration stuff, more ships.

And whilst galnet audio is just a basic text to speech that I have been using g in ED years ago, having it properly built in and polished will mean more will follow the story.

I wish FD would think about the solo players more and give them parity features to all the MP only stuff but I guess they feel changing direction to a more classical mmo is more important

 

[Montague]

The fundamental issue is with perceptions, we all were under the impression Horizons would just cover a single Season of updates (notionally those labelled 2.x) and fully expected that v3.x, v4.x, and other future hypothetical seasons would each be subject to some form of pay wall. FD of course are well with-in their rights to expand the scope of what is covered by a given "Season" license BUT it is not unreasonable (nor nonsense) to express concern over the potential implications of such scope creep.

I may not share the concerns of some of my fellow LEP owners but I believe I fully appreciate their viewpoint. Disregarding their concerns as nonsense is both foolhardy and disrespectful IMO - even if their concerns are perhaps unwarranted.

Things have definitely changed since I bought the lifetime pass two years ago. Elite 1.0 lasted about a year. The second season is apparently going to last at least three years. Critics of concerned lifetime pass holders gleefully tell us there was no official 10 year plan. Fine. But if there was a ten year plan, Horizons takes us 40% of the way through it. That's disconcerting. So, at the rate they're going, I hope the plan is for more than ten years. If it's less than that, I'm doubtful about getting my money's worth.

If I had known Horizons would last at least three years and there was no 10 year plan, I might not have purchased the pass.

All I'm asking is for FD to explain why my concern is unwarranted. Simple reassurance. Nothing unreasonable. Why some players are offended by that is beyond me.

 

[EdzUp]

maybe the NEW shader system will allow the mac to join us?

 

[Stewart_]

that is a blow tbh, I was quietly hoping sometime later on we'd get a proper Elite IV that was offline single player.

You effectively have your single player game - called solo. Ignore the storylines.

it just isn’t possible to have a richer elite game that is disconnected and local.

Elite Dangerous is a proper Elite 4.

This isn’t 1984 or 1994. The majority of player base want an online game.

there was never any indication FD would release some crippled offline version - that existed only in your dreams.

 

[Juniper]

You effectively have your single player game - called solo. Ignore the storylines.

it just isn’t possible to have a richer elite game that is disconnected and local.

Elite Dangerous is a proper Elite 4.

This isn’t 1984 or 1994. The majority of player base want an online game.

there was never any indication FD would release some crippled offline version - that existed only in your dreams.

Actually, that's not true in the slightest.

How will single player work? Will I need to connect to a server to play?
The galaxy for Elite: Dangerous is a shared universe maintained by a central server. All of the meta data for the galaxy is shared between players. This includes the galaxy itself as well as transient information like economies. The aim here is that a player's actions will influence the development of the galaxy, without necessarily having to play multiplayer.

The other important aspect for us is that we can seed the galaxy with events, often these events will be triggered by player actions. With a living breathing galaxy players can discover new and interesting things long after they have started playing.

Update! The above is the intended single player experience. However it will be possible to have a single player game without connecting to the galaxy server. You won't get the features of the evolving galaxy (although we will investigate minimising those differences) and you probably won't be able to sync between server and non-server (again we'll investigate).

That update was added after hundreds of people freaked out at "online only" and demanded a proper single player game. FD then promised it. People didn't pull their pledges as a result.

The thing is, E: D will continue to be developed as long as David is alive and at the company. It's his magnum opus.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I am really muffled by idea of offline ED at this point. Not gonna happen, and while it was obviously painful, it was right call for David to make.

Also I think offline single player space game should look and feel very different from how ED now feels like. I would design it very differently at least for off line experience.

Despite all ups and downs ED benefits heavily of being this massive game with huge feedback loop system. I love changes in BGS and want them to be more visible. That would be impossible in offline game.

 

[Riverside]

I am really muffled by idea of offline ED at this point. Not gonna happen, and while it was obviously painful, it was right call for David to make.

Well someone brought it up so lets use it as an example of FDev changing direction & how they handle it.

OfflineGate was a feature FDev realised was no longer able to be part of their plan for reasons. They came clean, took a bit of a beating in the press, some customers were refunded & the rest moved on with varying degrees of lingering bitterness.

How did events go down before they stated it would no longer be an on-going feature of the game?

 

[Patrick_68000]

Really? He said that? Hmm.

Surprising that he'd close the door on that possibility.

He said, I'm sure. There will be no other titles. ELITE DANGEROUS will be the last title but will evolve, of course

Yep I remember that too

That said.....
https://www.pcgamesn.com/elite-dang...body-quite-likely-to-be-frontier-developments

Exactly

 

[Patrick_68000]

that is a blow tbh, I was quietly hoping sometime later on we'd get a proper Elite IV that was offline single player.

David had said that the single player mode could be given if one day the online game is removed. He would give the game and the server part. But of course the galaxy would no longer be scalable

 

[Micha]

I think it's the right way to go ; the yearly season model just does dwindle the player base. Still I have a bitter taste i my mouth when I think of the 165€ I cashed in for the LEP, when I could have got Horizons and be good until Q4 2018 - at the very least. When I bought LEP in August 2015, the (10y)plan was one extension per year, and even then the added-value of the LEP was a gamble : it would be covered after about three extensions/seasons. Now we know that Horizons lasts for three years... FDev should really seriously consider some perks, or partial refunds by now.

Even knowing what I know now, I would have bought the LEP given another chance. I certainly got more value out of this game than any other so far (with the possible exception of KSP). In fact, should FDev sell a LEP again, I'll be buying it. Yes, Seasons are probably a thing of the past, and Horizons has gone on a bit longer than originally planned, but in the future there will certainly be paid expansions which should be covered by the LEP.

As for perks, given they're giving out decals left-right-and-center, I'm surprised there isn't one for LEPpers.

 

[WR3ND]

As someone who got the game after release on Steam in early 2015 where I found out about it, I knew there wasn't going to be an offline mode, so I'm fine with that. I do feel for the people back then who were expecting it, but the game has since moved on, and an offline mode doesn't really make sense for the shared BGS and system data which are an integral part of the game now.

To their credit, Frontier made the right move offering refunds there for those who wanted it and weren't going to get what they were expecting, having already bought into the game for it. On the other hand, the poo-storm that would have followed if they hadn't is self-evident.

Nothing wrong with us LEP owners reminding Frontier of our in-good-faith purchase from them, and hopefully we make out much better with it in the end. That being said, some reassurances from them would go a long way, I think.

 

[Juniper]

How did events go down before they stated it would no longer be an on-going feature of the game?

Well, without wishing to dwell on or drag up painful memories, they sneaked the news of Offlinegate into a newsletter two weeks before launch. They'd given zero hint of this before, and I was in the DDF. They handled the whole thing appallingly.

Up until that point, people were optimistic. Sceptical, because the game wasn't really ready for release, but basically excited.

 

[Micha]

Yep I remember that too

That said.....
https://www.pcgamesn.com/elite-dang...body-quite-likely-to-be-frontier-developments

Reading through that, it looks just as likely that it's someone gambling on the future of FDev development and trying to make a buck by pre-registering rights they can then try to sell back to FDev when/if FDev decide to make those titles. Site-squatting patent-trolling scumbags. Can't stand people who just try to skim off a quick buck without ever planning to do any actual work.

(Sorry, bit of an off-topic rant there!)

 

[Juniper]

I am really muffled by idea of offline ED at this point. Not gonna happen, and while it was obviously painful, it was right call for David to make.

Also I think offline single player space game should look and feel very different from how ED now feels like. I would design it very differently at least for off line experience.

Despite all ups and downs ED benefits heavily of being this massive game with huge feedback loop system. I love changes in BGS and want them to be more visible. That would be impossible in offline game.

I agree with you to some extent, although what many of us were looking forward to was having a galaxy on our computers. FE2 came on a single floppy disk. That was amazing back then as it is now.

A lot of the problems with dropping offline could be mitigated I feel by offering players multiple commander slots. Michael Brookes said it was "on the list" a long time ago, but it wasn't mentioned at FX17 and I suspect it's fallen off that list now. If you want another commander, you have to buy another copy of the game. At least Horizons has some more life in it I guess, so the LEP isn't so much of an issue.

 

[WR3ND]

Reading through that, it looks just as likely that it's someone gambling on the future of FDev development and trying to make a buck by pre-registering rights they can then try to sell back to FDev when/if FDev decide to make those titles. Site-squatting patent-trolling scumbags. Can't stand people who just try to skim off a quick buck without ever planning to do any actual work.

(Sorry, bit of an off-topic rant there!)

It could just be something like Frontier taking it so that someone else doesn't make a game for it or the like. Just offhand speculation on my part of course though.

 

[madbilly]

Back on topic, it would be really nice if someone from the FDev Community Team would pop in here and tell us what's what. Dale and Brett seem to be able to read every thread, so them at least must know about our discussion.

 

[WR3ND]

Back on topic, it would be really nice if someone from the FDev Community Team would pop in here and tell us what's what. Dale and Brett seem to be able to read every thread, so them at least must know about our discussion.

I'm not sure if they're ready to make an official comment on it as it pertains to the future development of the game and where they might be taking it, but yes, some acknowledgment would be nice at least.