Modes Elite Dangerous PvE vs PvP and who needs a Solo play if you had PvE server
- Thread starter digitalblade
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Enough of this ignorance of Game Genres!
I will quote my self to end this abomination of discussion since modern forum users seems not to be able to read TL: Please-Do-Read posts before they post.
Everyone that claims that CQC was the equivalent of a PvP content in the main MMO game Elite Dangerous is just fling with his eyes wide shut. That is insane and just tells me you never played an other MMO in your life. What ED has now as PVP content is Power Play, that legitimize your attack on other player that is also involved in Power play. They all have agreed and accept that other power players WILL go after them willingly. Ofc I am sure most of them would prefer that only NPC power players go after them. Long Story shotr Power Play also Failed miserably as a game play mechanic.
Power Play did not work since the rewards for it are pointless, so there are very few that wold ever bother with Power Play(mainly custom player factions and groups). The Grind for it is so huge, people that are doing it, oh boy you guessed it, prefer to also do it as PVE content. Since that make the process so much easier and faster. FDevs could have limited Power Play to ONLY CMDR vs CMDR (for combat missions for example, but as anything else it's up to YOU to "decide" if you do it PvE or PvP style and what do you know? PvE is EASIER AND FASTER. So that is what is promoted by the game and that is what is done ...
Yet the claim is that it is up to YOU as a CMDR...
I will quote my self to end this abomination of discussion since modern forum users seems not to be able to read TL: Please-Do-Read posts before they post.
(Edited to fill in information about Fractured Space, if you are looking for example of Space Combat Arena game that it the game, OK John Snow!)
Everyone that claims that CQC was the equivalent of a PvP content in the main MMO game Elite Dangerous is just fling with his eyes wide shut. That is insane and just tells me you never played an other MMO in your life. What ED has now as PVP content is Power Play, that legitimize your attack on other player that is also involved in Power play. They all have agreed and accept that other power players WILL go after them willingly. Ofc I am sure most of them would prefer that only NPC power players go after them. Long Story shotr Power Play also Failed miserably as a game play mechanic.
Power Play did not work since the rewards for it are pointless, so there are very few that wold ever bother with Power Play(mainly custom player factions and groups). The Grind for it is so huge, people that are doing it, oh boy you guessed it, prefer to also do it as PVE content. Since that make the process so much easier and faster. FDevs could have limited Power Play to ONLY CMDR vs CMDR (for combat missions for example, but as anything else it's up to YOU to "decide" if you do it PvE or PvP style and what do you know? PvE is EASIER AND FASTER. So that is what is promoted by the game and that is what is done ...
Yet the claim is that it is up to YOU as a CMDR...
I have been trying to argue for PP to be done in open only, since with the current design its a dead horse anyway, so what worse that could already happen, make PP an exclusive PVP content.
If we had to discuss what should be changes it's simple.
There are 2 major systems that Online Arena Games use:
- Zero to no Grind and equal terms for all players from the start to the end of each game.
Examples: CS:GO , Dota 2, Starcraft, LoL (with little grind elements) - Grind element but complimented with a significant feel for progression throw different Ships/Machines/Heroes, while they all get bigger better and stronger the more you play.
Examples: Fractured Space, WarThunder, World Of War Tanks
If you didn't know a lot of the combat pilots in ED are coming from WarThunder. How do I know that, well that was the previous most played combat game that implemented the use of a HOTAS well.
The reason why CQC failed is because they took the worst of both 1. and 2.
They had a high Grind Element that led to you have a slight increase of power in the game play. That was the worst idea everyone could have attempted and there are good reasons why every other developer of successive game of that type have either gone for option 1 or option 2.
For CQC to be successive they have to decide on one of the following:
1. Ships and equipment stays the same but remove the grind element.
2. Keep and improve the grind element, but allow involved players to reach ships that are significantly more powerful with way better equipment. (Current state of Fractured Space)
Lastly never ever add a mode "FREE FOR ALL" in a competitive game created after the year 2000. Having such mode shows how much the developers new about competitive games on the first place .... I very much assure you, NON of the current top 20 competitive games have this mode and it is insulting to throw players in it. Even if games like Call of Duty still support that abomination the latest Battlefront has removed it. Since no competitive player enjoyed constantly being stabbed on the back and have zero team play in a match no one cares or appreciates the FREE FOR ALL since years. it's jsut a joke mode and in CQC it was actually a way to progress in the game and probably the best since if you are a better player that is where you will rank up the easiest.
So am pretty sure the most quelled mode of CQC was that very same that delivers the worst competitive experience...
I am not trying to insult FDevs. I am trying to explain I fully understand why the game failed and it is not because players refused to play it. It's because it was horribly wrong by design. Like the Death Star, it killed it's self.
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Keep in mind that ED's playerbase skews much older than most games. It may well be King when it comes to older players. I wouldn't bet against it. I've talked to other class of '84 (bbc) and '86 (commodore) players, and a lot us had the exact same experience with MMO's: I installed WoW when it was newish and enjoyed the game greatly until I got the point where I had to seek out other players to do things. Then I canceled and uninstalled.
It is a p2p system. At no time are you and the people you're playing with connected to a central server ala WoW, Eve, Star Trek, etc. You're connected directly to the other players you see in an instance. The game is running entirely on player computers. The one server you're connected to only makes the matches and stores the results of transactions and actions.
then elite is not your best choice of a game.
that's a bit harsh, but yes, it sucks.
they mostly pvp for the lulz (serious pvp is not possible in elite unless you agree on a duel, but if you are lucky casual encounters can be fun). or ganking, of course.
and usually after engineering the hell out of their ships. some even go into excruciating evaluation of the different weapons, modules and effects, which are ... meh (personal opinion) and anyway there is nowhere to put them to serious use anyway. pvp was also unbalanced before engineers, but was more fun. if you are interested, there is a private group that sets up fights in non-engineered ships.
not playing atm.
And some have PvE only servers.
Perhaps what ED is missing is a PvP only mode (not counting CQC)... but since most activities in ED require PvE, a PvP only mode might be tricky. I suppose they could add an arena mode where people can take their in-game ships. That might be fun. I'd take my combat Orca into that for the lulz occasionally.
1) Not sure what you mean here. I play PvE in group and solo. FD provides both. Did you mean PvP by chance? I enjoy PvP in some games. ED isn't a game where i feel PvP is needed.
2) Meh, not really. For the PvPers, i'm sure some game mechanic surrounding PvP would be welcome. Powerplay could have been that, but its basically like the BGS, where PvP has very little impact and PvE is king.
3) Once in a blue moon i'll have a duel with someone. That's about it. No point taking it further. I'm not interested in spending time and effort kitting ships for PvP or being competitive in ED. If i want, there are much better games out there for PvP. Why spend energy trying to make PvP the focus of ED when the devs don't seem to want that and there are other games for PvP out there?
You say that but yet the sub forum and the leaders order changing every week would disagree with your "dead horse" comment.
Sure not as many people do it as Frontier wanted, but clearly some are doing it.
Enough for changes to show every week.
Those people who engage in it are being constantly undermined in SOLO, I heard this from first source. If they like another form of pve grind wars then this is what they got.
This is because private modes have influence so it became another "pve is king".
Remove the solo influence and we are getting the PvP content it was supposed to be.
Traders "A" expand the system, combatants "A" protect traders "A".
Combatants "B" try to kill traders "A" countered with combatants "A". Here, please welcome "PVP CONTENT".
Right now we have: traders "A" expand in solo.
Combatants "B" kill npcs "A" in solo.
"Multiplayer"
Thing is, if they made it open only, i'm pretty sure PP would die overnight. Most PvPers are not interested in doing a PvE grind for territory. They would want PvP to determine the outcome. So, just mode locking it would actually result in PP dying even more.
FD would have to make significant changes to how PP works so that the limited number of PvPers could fight each other for merits.
And, i have to say, since PvPers are inherently competitive, i can see the whole thing falling apart at the seams instantly as they look for ways to "win". Immediately i can think of how one person with 2 accounts or two people could simply organize things so they kill one person in a sidewinder over and over and over again in order to get loads of merits and outfarm those PPers who are taking hours per kill (to track down people, interdict, and make the kill).
So, on one level, i think it might be interesting to see FD do this as an experiment, except they really can't, not without upsetting almost everyone who plays PP at the moment.
As for this:
I don't see the problem. Between timezones, instances, different platforms, you're never going to see everyone anyway, even if you could play 24/7. And a majority of players are doing only PvE anyway, so any PvP is quite inconsequential. Even if you managed to interdict and kill one player its a temporary setback for them, and overall, you're not getting much reward (this could be tweaked).
Even forcing everyone into open, absoloute best case, people would just change how they fly. Orcas and Clippers for fast delivery runs, even if you interdict, you aren't catching them, or if you are flying something fast, you're not going to have the firepower to stop them high waking mostly (ok, FSD disruptors might delay).
Basically the only way i can see PP working as a PvP focused activity is to get rid of the PvE from Powerplay.
Its too late for that.
What would be needed perhaps is yet another territorial game, detached from the BGS and PP that is PvP only.
You see that is where I believe as "older" people we make the mistake. While as time passes there is less and less gamer in my age every time I play a game that I think it's about adult people and I try to join up with other adult players I realize that the vast majority are still players between 16 and 25. You may think that ED has older player base since those were the backers, but I assure you every old nostalgia game has not survived only on it's old friends backs. I ma pretti sure ED will never get more "old" players then it already has. However it constantly gets younger players in. It is normal for people like me over 30 to not quite fit in and start to get annoyed buy younger generation of players. We are not the same, they are kids and kids are annoying unless they are your own, no wait even then. But hear me out here.
I quite WoW after 1 year of game play since I learned my Guild Master was a 16 years old girl
That explained why my Guild banner was a pink heart. However I did not quit it because of that, that was the nail to the coffin why I left my guild. The real reason I quit it was because I never enjoyed killing the same monsters over and over again, as you do in PvE game play, and I have done everything in the game in 1 year. In my last 2 mounts of WoW I tryed PvP. Turns out the game play was way more enjoyable for me. I joined a random guild for PvP I've played with 16 yearsolds I've player with 40 yearsolds.I had a blast because I was doing what I liked doing, it did not matter to me if I am doing it with a kid a adult, man or women, as long as they also were good and enjoyed the same thing I do.
The reason why I sopped WoW was not because I hated it because as adult I did not have time for it and I found out the part of that MMO that is my sweet spot. Yes most of us do not have time to commit to Guilds, Corps, Teams but if oyu tell me you cannot work with other people despite their age towards a common goal then I suggest you apply what you know about it in your work spear. Human relationships are the same the only question is if you really want it.
I don't think it would be particularly difficult to make that change to the start menu, and I think it would be beneficial for new players.
I don't disagree at all - in fact I suspect we're saying the same thing in different ways - and while I also have the same clear sight to see Elite was not designed to be another EVE or countless other MMO games that have been overrun by their PVP communities to the point of being nearly unplayable, I do at the very least, understand the frustrations experienced by those trying to hold a dominant position, only to be continually undermined by players out of their reach. Personally, I find this a great model - to borrow an expression: "The more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip though your fingers."
About that Matchmaking... I'm sure this is an entire massive 55-gallon drum of worms, so I'll not open it, just point it out.
As above, see Leia quote. Firmly in the Appreciate it camp, because it has a more organic, living feel - there's simply no way to keep the sort of stranglehold over an entire system of millions or even thousands. Just look what the Bajorian underground was able to do during the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor for a great example.
Sure thats another possibility, but is probably harder to implement, we already have PP which its not doing great right now, why not revive it.
Take some core code from PP, adjust it to new 2 PvP factions and make them only gain influence in system from killing players of opposing PvP faction. Core code clearly exists.
Have systems have PvP faction influence make system neutral or "belonging" to one or another group, core code for this too exists.
Add check to "Request landing" which checks first if player has PvP-faction flag on, if yes check if that faction can access the station (high enough system influence for group). Add response "Get lost traitorous scum!" to landing request and refusal of landing permission for PvP player in PvP faction without sufficient influence in system.
Most of the core code exists and can be adjusted for this purpose, and creates game for PvP people without taking anything from PvE people.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Indeed.
The frustrations are easily understood but not necessarily shared - it rather depends on one's opinion regarding whether direct PvP should be mandatory, or not.
Noted.
We have PvP which is not doing great right now, why not remove it.
Frustration comes from using wrong tools for the purpose.
Analogy. PvP players have a sword. They really, REALLY love that sword. But their driveway has snow piling up on it, they want their driveway clean of snow.
They are right now swinging sword at snow and complaining that it is doing nothing (little bit of snow flies away when they swing but impact of swings is so tiny it is irrelevant).
They argue that snow may only rain where it can be beating with sword. Which is silly. And at same time willfully ignore tools present that make actual, real impact on snow, namely shovel.
This is because using shovel (PvE) in their view is boring and instead they want world to turn snow into something that they can swing sword at.
So, instead of complaining they should take the correct tool for correct job. And start working missions, hauling stuff and whatnot for their group and not expect snow to be made into something you can fight with sword.
And misunderstanding comes from horrendous misuse of analogies.
If you are under some strange set of blinkers that makes you believe PvPers don't engage in PvE activities you're as misguided as every other forumite that rails against PvP out of sheer hysteria.
Because creating bizarre analogies is a thing: PvP players have been clearing the path with shovels for years. In fact we're more than likely better at clearing the snow than you are. However, PvP players are wondering why we're clearing snow in the first place; we signed up for a sword fighting competition, arrived here, and have spent our time shoveling snow since. The advert we applied to still says "sword fighting lessons here", and I wouldn't be too surprised when some of them start getting bored and throwing their weapons around.
And in plain: ED was sold as a consequence-driven game that condones all playstyles. FD need to either offer a large number of refunds (I don't see this route happening), implement that content for all players, or accept that bored swordfighters are going to keep turning up off the back of their adverts and after a few months waiting start toying with local snow shovelers. Also, analogies should remain as a method of making something understandable and not as a thinly veiled method of mockery.
No, they are not understood, despite the beliefs of many similar self-congratulating forum psychologists.
Many players couldn't give a flying donkey about whether each player engages in PvP. The only true concern is continuity; to give an example I like to use, if a player wants to UA bomb a station to knock its services out, there is nothing any player can do about that here. The defending faction cannot form any kind of defense; the attacker can just sneak in via PG and render the enemy faction's stations useless.
It's a pure and simple expression of choice and consequence, which before we forget is that nice little phrase people like to jab at gankers. Choose to UA bomb a station? The job should be tough, risky, and leave you open to punishment. Choose to do a risky trade run through anarchy systems? You should expect danger for the high profit and be prepared to deal with it. Alas, "consequence" to many players here is a poor facade that equates to "I don't like dem nasty gr1ef0rs, how can we stop their game"
If someone wants to exist as a simple miner keeping out of harm's way then hell, why do I care about them?
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Analogy is perfectly valid.
People want to do PP/BGS with PvP combat, wanting to use sword instead of shovel. But swords are useless for the task and they refuse to accept it. (in reality PP/BGS is crutch trying to push for change to force people to Open who do not want to be in open)
If PvP players were actually into PP/BGS, they would take the shovel in their hand and start working for their power/faction using the tools which non-PvP players are using. But in all threads we see just "but I want to pewpew not work"
Now, your analogy. Yes, advertisement said "you can fight with swords". It NOWHERE said that "swordfighting is all there is and everyone must come to you to get beaten with swords". That is the problem with swordwielders. They just do not get into their heads that others do not want to be beaten in the head with swords for amusement of someone ELSE. Nothing in the statement I read said "You must become beating target of swordplayer". In fact, I bought game based on "You can opt out of swordfighting and still do all the interesting stuff if you wish"
Reality is that there are lots and lots of games out there, and basically NOWHERE are the swordfolk well behaved bunch who play nice and polite with those who do not want to play with swords. You spoke of how ED has consequences for your deeds. That is visible here. Significant portion of PvP group did what it always does when permitted. Went into gankmode and "KOS all humans". And now they complain because their actions, or inactions for those PvP folk who are not into ganking but are not going extra lightyears to find and kill all gankers, they are facing consequences.
Idea that "provide us with enough targets and we behave" is not going to work. There just isn't a game out there where non-insignificant portion of PvP people would not go for cheap kills anytime they can.
To carry on with our analogues and snowshoveling. People who like shoveling snow have formed their own groups which are dedicated ONLY to shoveling snow. Swords are banned and anyone wielding one is permanently kicked out.
Why you swordplayers just cannot make big agreement "Swordfighting between us swordfighters, no rules etc on xxxx in system Whatever"? Nobody is denying you the swordfighting you appear to desire. Go forth, fight one another. Beat one another until only One remains. Or whatever.