Modes How to incentivise Open without buffing its rewards

Tiwaz

T
Jockey79 said:
Actually even I have to point out this isn't exactly true.


  • Planetside 2
  • War Thunder
  • Wargaming.net games (world of ....ships / tanks / warplanes)
  • Battlefeild
  • Battlefront
  • EVE-Online
  • Dreadnought
  • Call of Duty


These are all great PvP games with strong communities and should be around for years to come.
But that is the key difference, they are PvP focused. Elite: Dangerous isn't.
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Guess I should have defined it in terms of MMO(R)PG. Out of that list only Eve is remotely in that field, and even there majority of activity is PvE.

I did play Eve for some time and 99+% of my time was PvE, including and specially in nullspace as I was part of corporate support arm, mining stuff and so on.
 

Jockey79

Jockey79
Tiwaz said:
Guess I should have defined it in terms of MMO(R)PG. Out of that list only Eve is remotely in that field, and even there majority of activity is PvE.

I did play Eve for some time and 99+% of my time was PvE, including and specially in nullspace as I was part of corporate support arm, mining stuff and so on.
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With the exceptions of the FPS game COD / Battlefront / Battlefield - the rest are MMOs according to their webpages.
And you could call them MMOs under the "technical definition", but the Devs have decided not to.
I personally don't think Elite: Dangerous should have had the MMO label. Not with the selective mode system it has. But that's just me I suppose.

Also to be fair, you can "role-play" in any game. Dreadnought has a bit of a story intro explaining going into battle areas.
Planetside 2 has a full on back story from Planetside 1 which was carried into 2 and a story explanation to why people re-spawn.
War Thunder / Wargaming.net you can use the same idea from Dreadnought, after all - who role plays the boring bits like vehicle maintenance in the hangar etc?

So while PvP and PvP focused games are far from dead or dying. Elite is not and never could be a PvP focused game.
I mean just the scale alone should have been the biggest clue. SC is having to limit itself to 100 systems (IIRC) so players can find each other to PvP.
We have BILLIONS of systems with multiple instances. How anyone could mistake ED for a PvP game is "Beyond" me.

(credit for the joke goes to Sylveria)
 

Tiwaz

T
Jockey79 said:
With the exceptions of the FPS game COD / Battlefront / Battlefield - the rest are MMOs according to their webpages.
And you could call them MMOs under the "technical definition", but the Devs have decided not to.
I personally don't think Elite: Dangerous should have had the MMO label. Not with the selective mode system it has. But that's just me I suppose.

Also to be fair, you can "role-play" in any game. Dreadnought has a bit of a story intro explaining going into battle areas.
Planetside 2 has a full on back story from Planetside 1 which was carried into 2 and a story explanation to why people re-spawn.
War Thunder / Wargaming.net you can use the same idea from Dreadnought, after all - who role plays the boring bits like vehicle maintenance in the hangar etc?

So while PvP and PvP focused games are far from dead or dying. Elite is not and never could be a PvP focused game.
I mean just the scale alone should have been the biggest clue. SC is having to limit itself to 100 systems (IIRC) so players can find each other to PvP.
We have BILLIONS of systems with multiple instances. How anyone could mistake ED for a PvP game is "Beyond" me.

(credit for the joke goes to Sylveria)
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Fair enough.

Let's say then that only Eve out of those is loss centered PvP game where you can lose progress due to game. All others, to my knowledge, retain your advancement despite dying. Once you obtain weapon/gadget/whatever it is yours even if you die.
 

Jockey79

Jockey79
Tiwaz said:
Fair enough.

Let's say then that only Eve out of those is loss centered PvP game where you can lose progress due to game. All others, to my knowledge, retain your advancement despite dying. Once you obtain weapon/gadget/whatever it is yours even if you die.
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Well, yes and no.

EVE you keep most (if not all) of your trained skills (depending on how many skills you've trained and if you've upgraded your clone to accommodate a higher max value) on death.

So up to a certain point, you're always making progress.
However, if you have implants or don't upgrade your clone once you hit the max skill level for your current clone - then you have something to lose.

Some PvP'ers in EVE know what skills to train to max a PvP build without having to change the default/free clone - and don't use implants.
So if need be, they can "clone jump" from one point to another. (or at least used to do this, don't know if you still can).


So for an experienced EVE player, it is possible to PvP without losing anything apart from a few in game credits.
Which they know how to make back rather quickly.

A bit like folks in Elite, just blowing up in a Sidewinder - not really lost anything, so doesn't really matter :)
 

EvE4evah

EvE4evah
Jockey79 said:
Well, yes and no.

EVE you keep most (if not all) of your trained skills (depending on how many skills you've trained and if you've upgraded your clone to accommodate a higher max value) on death.

So up to a certain point, you're always making progress.
However, if you have implants or don't upgrade your clone once you hit the max skill level for your current clone - then you have something to lose.

Some PvP'ers in EVE know what skills to train to max a PvP build without having to change the default/free clone - and don't use implants.
So if need be, they can "clone jump" from one point to another. (or at least used to do this, don't know if you still can).


So for an experienced EVE player, it is possible to PvP without losing anything apart from a few in game credits.
Which they know how to make back rather quickly.

A bit like folks in Elite, just blowing up in a Sidewinder - not really lost anything, so doesn't really matter :)
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You forgot the Tech-3 Cruisers m8. Legion, Proteus, Loki and Tengu. If they get destroyed, even if you don't get podded (killed), you lose skill. A whole T3 skill level, which takes almost a month to train (if lv 5).

Edit: auto-correct CLogged on me
 
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Sylveria

Sylveria
EvE4evah said:
You forgot the Tech-3 Cruisers m8. Legion, Proteus, Loki and Tenho. If they get destroyed, even if you don't get podded (killed), you lose skill. A whole T3 skill level, which takes almost a month to train (if lv 5).
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Was just thinking the same. It's the only skill that gets lost with pod-death, but yeah depending on the skill level it can be a PITA ;)
 

EvE4evah

EvE4evah
Yes also, it's not really just credits that you lose…

In ED, you're only really screwed if you don't have the money to cover the insurance, and nowadays you even have the option to sell assets to cover for it.

In EvE, the best insurance plan will never cover your whole ship loss, 60% at best, then you have to grab that money and buy and fit another ship. The more expensive your ship, the less the insurance money covers, to the point that anything over 200m isk (their currency) ain't worth insuring. Specially because insurance covers a percentage of the hull value, not accounting for the modules. In ships like T3s and specially in Capitals and Titans, the fit is generally way more expensive than the hull…

https://zkillboard.com/kill/66665021/

^^^This is a poor-man Revenant. Hull is 100b isk, his poor fit was some 60ish billion, if you scroll all the way down to the insurance values, best cover is (lol) 7b [big grin]
That ship loss takes at least 3 months to recoup IF you're an endgame Tycoon, and 4 months of hard wormhole ratting (farming) using Dreadnoughts. Both very risky activities. Best case scenario.


Edit: also Syl, you don't have to be podded inside a T3C to lose a skill level at all, you just have to have your T3C destroyed:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/5g3y22/eli5_t3_cruisers_and_skill_loss/
 
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Sylveria

Sylveria
EvE4evah said:
Yes also, it's not really just credits that you lose…

In ED, you're only really screwed if you don't have the money to cover the insurance, and nowadays you even have the option to sell assets to cover for it.

In EvE, the best insurance plan will never cover your whole shop loss, 60% at best, then you have to grab that money and buy and fit another ship. The more expensive your ship, the less the insurance money covers, to the point that anything over 200m isk (their currency) ain't worth insuring. Specially because insurance covers a percentage of the hull value, not accounting for the modules. In ships like T3s and specially in Capitals and Titans, the fit is generally way more expensive than the hull…

https://zkillboard.com/kill/66665021/

^^^This is a poor-man Revenant. Hull is 100b isk, his poor fit was some 60ish billion, if you scroll all the way down to the insurance values, best cover is (lol) 7b [big grin]
That ship loss takes at least 3 months to recoup IF you're an endgame Tycoon, and 4 months of hard wormhole ratting (farming) using Dreadnoughts. Both very risky activities. Best case scenario.
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LOL! Thanks for that, I haven't seen the Shame Board in a looong time.

Still remember those Officer Fit gazillion isk losses on the killboard...

When you translate the billions of isk into RL money it does indeed make you cringe...

And yeah it also reminds me of the borked insurance system in EVE too.

Also, another point to be made, the ISK/PLEX system is a bit more complicated than translating to "losing credits", because in EVE some obtain ISK buy buying PLEX with RL cash...

Meaning, if you do this and lose your ship- you lose a bit of RL cash each time, too.

If you're "gud" enough at EVE you can actually never have to spend such cash.
 

EvE4evah

EvE4evah
Sylveria said:
LOL! Thanks for that, I haven't seen the Shame Board in a looong time.

Still remember those Officer Fit gazillion isk losses on the killboard...

When you translate the billions of isk into RL money it does indeed make you cringe...

And yeah it also reminds me of the borked insurance system in EVE too.

Also, another point to be made, the ISK/PLEX system is a bit more complicated than translating to "losing credits", because in EVE some obtain ISK buy buying PLEX with RL cash...

Meaning, if you do this and lose your ship- you lose a bit of RL cash each time, too.

If you're "gud" enough at EVE you can actually never have to spend such cash.
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That's true!!!

I know guys who rat (farm) so much that they have isk to pay for three lifetimes' worth of monthly subs
 

Jockey79

Jockey79
EvE4evah said:
You forgot the Tech-3 Cruisers m8. Legion, Proteus, Loki and Tengu. If they get destroyed, even if you don't get podded (killed), you lose skill. A whole T3 skill level, which takes almost a month to train (if lv 5).

Edit: auto-correct CLogged on me
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Cheers for info, didn't actually know this as I never had one of those myself.
T3 had hardly starting being rolled out IIRC when I quit (or I had ignored it, not sure which).

I had a T2 Minmitar stealth ship thingy, and some sensor things to ping the system for something (don't even recall what it was all called or for now, lol)
Also had a Raven, Scorpion and a few T2 cruisers.

They guy I have my account to however, from what I gather in 12 months he took it from max positive rating to max negative.
Last I spoke to him, he was flying a Caldari carrier in it and used my old account for noob gank and pirate activities in 0.0

So anyone who plays EVE, do keep an eye out for Jockey (or Jockey79, I forget).
Any stories or videos would be funny to watch from my perspective :)
 

Sylveria

Sylveria
Jockey79 said:
Cheers for info, didn't actually know this as I never had one of those myself.
T3 had hardly starting being rolled out IIRC when I quit (or I had ignored it, not sure which).

I had a T2 Minmitar stealth ship thingy, and some sensor things to ping the system for something (don't even recall what it was all called or for now, lol)
Also had a Raven, Scorpion and a few T2 cruisers.

They guy I have my account to however, from what I gather in 12 months he took it from max positive rating to max negative.
Last I spoke to him, he was flying a Caldari carrier in it and used my old account for noob gank and pirate activities in 0.0

So anyone who plays EVE, do keep an eye out for Jockey (or Jockey79, I forget).
Any stories or videos would be funny to watch from my perspective :)
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I flew all 4, but Amarr was my thing. Love me some space lazors. I specifically trained mine in all four racials to begin with, knowing it would take MUCH longer to skill up. I wasn't in a hurry, and it helped me to learn some of the finer points of the ships before I moved on to the next tier. I didn't even touch Battleships in my first year- mainly stuck to frigates, cruisers and BC's. Never did touch Dreads or anything bigger than Battleships.

Only ships I hated were Minnie because they weren't very aesthetically pleasing- most looked like someone went to the junk yard with a roll of duct-tape and a propane torch and tried to create "modern art".

Flew in all secs, and spent a bit of time in wspace as well as null for a while. Learned quite a bit over time, but eventually it just got really boring to me because it was always centered around the PvP aspects and after you kill and get killed so many times it's just the same old, day in and day out. (which is why PvP in this game really doesn't hold interest for me) Perhaps it might also has something to do with maturity and I "grew out of it".
 

Shinji Ikari

Shinji Ikari
StiTch said:
Mate, you propose that and I wouldn't be surprised if it were still shouted down as violently unfair.

EDIT: That said, it IS practically doubling exploration income... ;)

Srs bsns, I know this is thread is somewhat facetious, but arbitrary handwavium bonuses will never be the answer. Aside from that it'll never be accepted, I couldn't care less for an incentive that boils down to moar credits. I'd rather be incentivised with engaging gameplay - the mindless credits are already taken care of by PvE.
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Don't be so sure, CMDR Konnivar made 6 bill after going around the galaxy and I'm very sure he wouldn't have made 1 mill extra if the idea was implemented.
 

Shinji Ikari

Shinji Ikari
I have and idea, if this were to be made I'd just block everybody who isn't my friend in open and voila, I have made my own PG in open while getting the benefits.
 

Tiwaz

T
Jockey79 said:
Well, yes and no.

EVE you keep most (if not all) of your trained skills (depending on how many skills you've trained and if you've upgraded your clone to accommodate a higher max value) on death.

So up to a certain point, you're always making progress.
However, if you have implants or don't upgrade your clone once you hit the max skill level for your current clone - then you have something to lose.

Some PvP'ers in EVE know what skills to train to max a PvP build without having to change the default/free clone - and don't use implants.
So if need be, they can "clone jump" from one point to another. (or at least used to do this, don't know if you still can).


So for an experienced EVE player, it is possible to PvP without losing anything apart from a few in game credits.
Which they know how to make back rather quickly.

A bit like folks in Elite, just blowing up in a Sidewinder - not really lost anything, so doesn't really matter :)
Click to expand...

However, how many people want to fly in just Sidewinder?
Either way, I stand by my statement but try to amend it to fit all the versions...
"PvP is best way to kill game which has any notable content beyond PvP and contains possibility of notable progress loss due to death.
And progress, I might add, is not just some skill. It includes money and time."

Or alternatively, if this fits you better:
"Persistent open world PvP is best way to kill a game which has content beyond PvP."

I play Battlefiend and so on, there is no real content beyond PvP (after you play short single player campaign), so I am familiar with games where your opponent is another human. But they are completely different games and in most cases IMO cannot be considered MMO as they are mostly based around matches and not persisten, free and open world.
 

Mouse

Mouse
Kurama 1100 said:
Do you know that no more than 60 k players connect to ED at any given time? I also would like to know a statistic that shows how PvPers are much more commmon.
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60k would be around how many in mobius at a max... and no mention of how many in Solo.. I would love a snapshot of#'s posted on how many are in Solo, Mobius, other PG's and Open at various times .


And even then how would you know they are PVPers in Open or other PGs?
 
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