oops, what about network disconnect or power failure, or my company's personel is calling me, or someone is ringing the front door bell? That's why the menu log exists, isn't it? is permitted even if it's in combat

Yep, we're not discussing the 'ship in danger' 15 sec menu timer, although there is a proposal in this thread to move the confirmation dialogue box to the start of the timer so you can go AFK while the timer counts down (this would also allow the timer to potentially be extended).

The conversation is about circumstances where the ship is in danger (and would trigger the 15 sec wait timer) but it is bypassed on purpose by ending task or disconnecting from the network. We want to capture deliberate disconnects without unduly punishing accidental ones.
 
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Well if FDev are going to throw manpower at this I'd go for every copy of the game coming with an FDev support employee to stand behind you & judge intent :D

It would definitely work, cost might be an issue though ;)

Outsource to China?
Cheap, and they might be ninja's or something. Lol

I'm sure that's not politically incorrect at all!

I'll stop now...
 
So, I just looked through 10 pages of history and i can't find my CLogging Fix.

So I'm typing it, again. (This is probably why I can never find it, it's not one of my threads... Lol)

A tagging system.
When you enter any form of danger (anything that requires the 15 second timer to legally exit the game), a "tag" is placed on your save, which contains some information.
When you leave danger, the tag is removed. You'd be none the wiser.

If you illegally combat log, or have a CTD, server error, etc, while in danger, the tag would not be removed.

This tag is then read when loading the game, and using the information it stored, will only allow you to re-enter your previous mode for a limited time.

I particularly like this idea, because if you're just going about your business and suffer a server failure or CTD while in danger, you simply reload the game and continue as normal, in your previous mode, which we all do anyway.

But if you're intentionally combat logging in PvP, your only options are to rejoin the same mode, where your opponent may be waiting. Or don't play at all.

No one is ever barred entirely from the game, and accidental disconnects are not punished.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead



Give it a few weeks, and I'll be looking for this post again. :p

I think that this idea is the best for the combat logging
 
I'm good with the idea. I'd also like to mention:

Watched the pod cast about ATR.. interesting that authority ships will come faster, in the flavor of die hard, tough nuts, and actually have teeth. That's great! What I would like to see is a user activated distress beacon, could be a module maybe. But upon activation is spawns an ATR response that loiters around for a bit, but fires on anyone flagged as criminal or gets a fine etc. Ignores a clean, non weapon deployed innocent ship whos commander has no bad standing / karma etc. It would prevent the classsic seal clubbing exercise that typically provokes a combat log by the victim. The ATR response would immediately open fire on the aggressor and shred them before any pointless death occurs as danger is presented to the seal.

I'd be happy with the combat timer, and a forced return to the instance. It'll help when the connection drops (and it does for me sometimes).

By having this: anyone getting dragged out of super cruise can immediately call backup, back up spawns, and the aggressor has two choices. Open fire and hope they alpha the victim for lolz, and die, or, they think... aargh ATR, this is hopeless, and haul on. It's the same hoplessness that victim feels in their unarmed ship hauling cargo. Anyone consenting to PvP combat would not hit the button, and not spawn ATR, and can fight each other to the death.

It's ingenious. It would eradicate combat logging from a cliche seal clubbing encounter.
 
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I'm good with the idea. I'd also like to mention:

Watched the pod cast about ATR.. interesting that authority ships will come faster, in the flavor of die hard, tough nuts, and actually have teeth. That's great! What I would like to see is a user activated distress beacon, could be a module maybe. But upon activation is spawns an ATR response that loiters around for a bit, but fires on anyone flagged as criminal or gets a fine etc. Ignores a clean, non weapon deployed innocent ship whos commander has no bad standing / karma etc. It would prevent the classsic seal clubbing exercise that typically provokes a combat log by the victim. The ATR response would immediately open fire on the aggressor and shred them before any pointless death occurs as danger is presented to the seal.

I'd be happy with the combat timer, and a forced return to the instance. It'll help when the connection drops (and it does for me sometimes).

By having this: anyone getting dragged out of super cruise can immediately call backup, back up spawns, and the aggressor has two choices. Open fire and hope they alpha the victim for lolz, and die, or, they think... aargh ATR, this is hopeless, and haul on. It's the same hoplessness that victim feels in their unarmed ship hauling cargo. Anyone consenting to PvP combat would not hit the button, and not spawn ATR, and can fight each other to the death.

It's ingenious. It would eradicate combat logging from a cliche seal clubbing encounter.

If I understand correctly I think you just described the 'report crimes' toggle ;)

From a lore perspective I'm not sure that having the biggest, baddest cops escorting newbies around would be the best use of their time. Of course from a gameplay perspective there are infinite cops & it could be done but I have a feeling FDev might want to preserve the baptism of fire newbies experience & not hold their hand too much.

Having the system response time & aggression being tied to the Cmdr's combat rank (or maybe just time played) could achieve a similar result, the lower the rank of the 'victim' (interdictee) the more urgent the call.

Personally I think the newbie would be better served learning to escape (or dying in their free ship) rather than learning to rely on the cops.
 
Some notes on the above suggestion, looking at flaws & picking up on comments throughout this thread.


Potential downsides, stuff to consider:

Risk could be mitigated by the CLogger on rejoining with the in-game blacklist, or router/firewall rules to exclude an IP. Not sure anything can be done (or needs to be done) about this but the mode restricting timer/karma is still some punishment. Pointed out by Vorthax in post #79.

One likely outcome from this would be that habitual CLoggers may tend to move away from open to a group or solo. Improving Crime & punishment mechanics & other aspects of the karma system may help reverse that trend.

There is no monetary nor cargo loss to the CLogger, but their in-game ability to progress will be restricted by their attacker and the mode restricting timer. They save the rebuy cost (assuming they would have died had they not CLogged) but have been prevented from achieving their immediate goal. A ganker does not win, but the blockader achieves their aim. No punishment can be directly applied because we cannot distinguish accidental disconnects from deliberate CLogging. Apart from the effects of the mode restricting timer on mode switching for missions etc, any punishment should only come from the karma based system.


There has been some productive discussion in this thread about the potential downsides of CMDR_CosmicSpaceHead's idea.

Two main issues were raised:

The CLogger using the blacklist to avoid their opponent, and
The potential for a cynical instance host to spoof a CLog ie make it look like you Clogged.

The use of the blacklist is raised in post #268, but I glossed over why this may not be a big deal.


There are three main tests to see how effective any potential solution is:
Attacker vs Clogging victim. This is the 'famous' one.
CLogging attacker vs wolf in sheeps clothing. This includes sealclubbers, spawncampers etc, & I think this is the most important one to handle.
NPC vs Clogger (no reverse test, NPCs obviously don't CLog). The blacklist has no bearing on this.

Each test also needs to allow the uncontrolled disconnect (game crash, network issues etc) to be minimally affected (ie they log back in & continue as before).

Blacklist:

If the victim CLogs & uses the blacklist, it's probably best that the two players are kept separate anyway, so the blacklist causes no issues. Hopefully the victim will consider their mode choice more carefully in future, there's always another ganker out there.

If the attacker CLogs & uses the blacklist, they are less likely to be instanced with anyone sharing the blacklisted players' instance, so have fewer potential victims to attack.

In both cases the blacklist is likely to already be used by the CLogger to avoid Cmdrs they don't want to play with.


Spoofing a CLog:

As I understand it each player in a shared instance has two connections. One to the 'server', which checks you are still in the game, and one to the other player(s) in your instance. One of the players will be hosting the instance, the rest are clients.

It's not that difficult to identify a particular IP address & block connections with it (out of game blacklist), but that doesn't disconnect the player from the server, only the player(s) concerned. The matchmaking server will detect a poor connection between you & not attempt to instance you with them again. The game cannot prevent this, but it effectively reduces the likelihood of a deliberate CLog because the players will no longer meet in-game.

To break another players' connection to the server (making it look like a CLog) is rather more difficult but still achievable. The disconnected player simply reconnects when they can, and in this case using the blacklist would probably be a good idea. Forcing another player out of the game (or off the internet) is rather more serious than just cheating in a game, and again is not really something the game itself can prevent other than by not connecting you to those players.

TL;DR
The Blacklist may deny the attacker a 'win' and allow the cheater to 'escape', but you will no longer be irritated by each other & instances of CLogging should be reduced longer term.
Disconnecting another player is outside the scope of the game, and possibly breaks the EULA. If caught a ban would be a reasonable expectation.
 
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As I understand it each player in a shared instance has two connections. One to the 'server', which checks you are still in the game, and one to the other player(s) in your instance. One of the players will be hosting the instance, the rest are clients.

If that's the case, would it be possible to disconnect the "server" connection, whilst leaving the other one open, for say, two minutes. This would - if my idea is viable, result in the player dropping his connection, but still physically existing for other players to kill, thus removing the advantage for doing it.
 
If that's the case, would it be possible to disconnect the "server" connection, whilst leaving the other one open, for say, two minutes. This would - if my idea is viable, result in the player dropping his connection, but still physically existing for other players to kill, thus removing the advantage for doing it.

I'm no expert but I believe the peers need to agree what happened. If you disconnect from the server the game will drop you back to the menu after a few seconds (or if the next transaction update fails, ship destruction would be a transaction update).

You have complete control over who you exchange traffic with, but I think your datastream would need to agree with the others in your instance for a change to be successful. Like I said I'm no expert :)
 
I'm no expert but I believe the peers need to agree what happened. If you disconnect from the server the game will drop you back to the menu after a few seconds (or if the next transaction update fails, ship destruction would be a transaction update).

You have complete control over who you exchange traffic with, but I think your datastream would need to agree with the others in your instance for a change to be successful. Like I said I'm no expert :)

It's easy enough to find the IP address of the player you are instanced with, using another device all you need to do is run a DOS attack on that IP address, the server and your game connection has no way to differentiate between this and a clog, as far as they are both concerned connection with the other IP address just stops. Until there is a way to determine whether it's a clog or malicious behavior on the part of a player there's really nothing that can be done without ending up in endless legal complications.

The end is there is no way to differentiate between the two from the remote players or servers perspective. The player who is being DOS'ed can by using the right software but that won't necessarily lead to the attacker since IP spoofing is fairly easy, and then any evidence can be presented to FDEV to demonstrate to was a DOS and not a CLOG, but I know about this stuff, I used to do it for a living, the average computer user and gamer is not going to be able to do this. We know how serious this gets because a person was recently killed by the police in a swatting incident, the only safe way is to treat this stuff gently and don't give people the ability to create serious problems for others.

If you implement serious consequences for Clogging someone will find a way to game the system and innocent people will get banned and lawsuits and bad publicity will ensue. This is almost a no-brainer, and I suspect this is the reason FDEV are taking the softly softly approach.
 
My connection kept forcing me and my wingman into different instances last night and the only way to fix it was by logging out and back in again. I would finish off the NPCs I was fighting and then go to log off but obviously the game would still recognise 'Danger'. Your proposal would mean me having to wait one hour just because the instancing sucked.

The truth about Clogging is that it's not actually a problem is it. I've had it done to me by a person that had ganged up on me with 2 others the night before. When it was 1v1 they combat logged. That sort of is a victory though don't you think. Money and rank gain would be minimal at best so killing them, letting them go, Clogging.... it's all irrelevant really. Just pick more honourable opponents or move on with your life.
 
My connection kept forcing me and my wingman into different instances last night and the only way to fix it was by logging out and back in again. I would finish off the NPCs I was fighting and then go to log off but obviously the game would still recognise 'Danger'. Your proposal would mean me having to wait one hour just because the instancing sucked.

The truth about Clogging is that it's not actually a problem is it. I've had it done to me by a person that had ganged up on me with 2 others the night before. When it was 1v1 they combat logged. That sort of is a victory though don't you think. Money and rank gain would be minimal at best so killing them, letting them go, Clogging.... it's all irrelevant really. Just pick more honourable opponents or move on with your life.

Read a bit further down the OP.

The idea (tagging method) I came up with would not punish you in the slightest. And heck, if you used the menu, that's perfectly legal anyway.

CLogging IS an issue, whether you agree or not. And it's not just so someone can get the satisfaction of a kill.
CLogging is detrimental to pirates, and bounty hunters. If a CMDR is murdering noobs all over the place and another CMDR wants them gone, but they just CLog, that only serves the murderer. The noobs are still at risk, and the bounty hunter doesn't get paid.
If a trader just CLogs on a (legitimate) pirate. That's just a 'get out of piracy free' card.

It's effectively cheating to avoid death or loss.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead
 
I see what you are saying about noob killers. They are a problem as it kills lifeblood from the game at it's source but is that not what ATR are for? Also is destroying those players actually going to stop them or just make you feel better? I'm all up for feeling better but these players have infinite money and are bored so they'll carry on regardless.

As for the piracy one, well this will get me into hot water but screw it. I've got absolutely no problem with someone Clogging on this one because maybe they don't want to play with you. Piracy has very little profit anyway so people playing this little game are just role-playing blackbeard or something. That's totally fine if you wanna role-play but I don't so don't use me as a ragdoll in your weird fantasy. Anyone watch black mirror, I'll say no more in case of spoilers but truly perfect example. I think Charlie Brooker might play Elite in his spare time.
 
I see what you are saying about noob killers. They are a problem as it kills lifeblood from the game at it's source but is that not what ATR are for? Also is destroying those players actually going to stop them or just make you feel better? I'm all up for feeling better but these players have infinite money and are bored so they'll carry on regardless.

As for the piracy one, well this will get me into hot water but screw it. I've got absolutely no problem with someone Clogging on this one because maybe they don't want to play with you. Piracy has very little profit anyway so people playing this little game are just role-playing blackbeard or something. That's totally fine if you wanna role-play but I don't so don't use me as a ragdoll in your weird fantasy. Anyone watch black mirror, I'll say no more in case of spoilers but truly perfect example. I think Charlie Brooker might play Elite in his spare time.

ATR will help, but some players like playing as local security (I used to, but it turns out I'm not very good. Lol), that's their source of gameplay.
To be honest, defending newbies from seal clubbers is actually more about annoying them, rather than destroying them, at the moment.

But with the new C&P changes, destroying them will be a key part in getting rid of them properly. (Which ATR will do too).

But then CLogging will be even more of an issue. These murderhobos will just CLog to avoid the hefty fines and detention centre.

And no offence here, but if you're trading in Open(or a mode that allows PvP) you should be prepared to defend yourself from pirates, and accept when they have you bested. If you're not willing to do that, then you really shouldn't be in Open.
Most PvP pirates only ask for a small amount of cargo anyway. (They're more like beggars to be honest... Lol)
That said, it's currently impossible to tell if a CMDR is a pirate, or just going to blow you to pieces. I'm hoping Beyond fixes that.


And all that's why I suggested simply putting players back in their last mode if they've had an ungraceful exit during danger.
It doesn't effect anyone, except the people exploiting it.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead
 
for everyone who crying about being punished because you lose connection or other excuses.

Its normal in ONLINE game you cant log off whatever you need and just *poof* out from game.
Timer is easiest and good solution and ist used in many games. But there is not working because of non server client? Then fix log off timer its broken.
 
translator

what is the probability that during a PVP fight the game will crash by itself ?
undetermined..

what is the probability that during a PVP fight the game will crash by the player's action ?
100% (to make it wide), we are all cheaters Lol..

What is the probability that the game will crash during a PVP fight several times over several days and only during a danger ? ~25%.. maybe less, if it's more you may need to consider going to a repairer..

the danger may be recognized by the game since there is now a disconnection timekeeper..

so I think that if the game planted many times and practically only when we are in danger.. the probability of a voluntary crash is not far from 90%.. (if not, there is a need for a bug report)

when this is detected .. at the connection simply send directly to the detention center with the rebay of the ship, as if it had been destroyed.. remains to be determined repetition of punishment.

so of course it is not infallible, it is not detectable, so one, two times it must pass .. it is the abuse that can be punished.

--
unless in a crash it is so direct that the game does not even have time to send information to the server ?

thin I had not thought .. uh! good luck + Lol

when we enter a danger .. send the information to the server .. and send the information when we are no longer in danger.

if we never leave the danger .. we should still be in danger .. the crash is detected.. i do not know it will work but good luck in any case.
 
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for everyone who crying about being punished because you lose connection or other excuses.

Its normal in ONLINE game you cant log off whatever you need and just *poof* out from game.
Timer is easiest and good solution and ist used in many games. But there is not working because of non server client? Then fix log off timer its broken.

It's part of the proposal already:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/359238-Combat-Logging-Punishment-Proposal?p=5643187&viewfull=1#post5643187
 
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