Engineers: Reality and Human Nature vs. Design Intent - Why the design Creates Tedium

[Imgran]

A replacement for you will also buy those, it's not the big deal you want it to be.

You are, once again, obviously and provably wrong. And I really hope you're just saying that because it feels good to say it (see above about prim princesses) rather than because you're silly enough in the head to actually believe it.

A bad update is how online multiplayer games die. Adding toxic features to an update can do a lot of damage to player retention, and shorten an online game's life span. Solving the problem by removing (or encouraging to leave) the players who don't like a new changes has a term for it. It's called a playerbase schism, and it tends to mark the beginning of the end of online games as major players in the market. The boneyards of the Internet are full of examples.

I *don't* think that this Engineers update is on that level. But I do think that this sort of thing, done in complete disregard of player feedback, is a sign that the devs will eventually make that kind of mistake.

Player feedback should never be entirely followed or entirely ignored. While there are a lot of silly players, and we can't be allowed to vote ourselves bread and circuses, collectively, if there's a problem with the game, we're more likely to know it than FDev is. And if they completely disregard player feed back in deciding how make design choices in the game that makes it easy to make a success-killing mistake. And attitudes like yours are going to help it happen. Since I love the game, I'd rather it not come to that.

I can stand everything in the Engineers system, but as I said earlier, they have the hood open now, this is the time to agitate for sensible, reasonable improvements to the system, so I am doing so. Sniping at those like me is not helpful to us, the game, or FDev. It doesn't even help you. It's pointless preening for no other reason than to show what a great fan of the game you are -- It epitomizes thoughtless, self-absorbed posturing in thought and action and the forums would probably be better if it never happened again.

 

[frostypaw]

You are, once again, obviously and provably wrong.

OK go on - let's see if you can prove it *reads on*

I *don't* think that this Engineers update is on that level.

Indeed.

No proof though. OK, that was fun remember player feedback is what got us here. There is no way they're ever EVER going to throw away the purpose of the engineer process being to get folk to do and try lots of different activities so we have to work from that position.

I'd drop the preening stuff too btw, it's a very poor effort and I've plenty of criticisms of the game. Try and make your points without redrawing me in cartoonish simplicity, you'll look less silly.

 

[Dommarraa]

I can stand everything in the Engineers system, but as I said earlier, they have the hood open now, this is the time to agitate for sensible, reasonable improvements to the system, so I am doing so. Sniping at those like me is not helpful to us, the game, or FDev. It doesn't even help you. It's pointless preening for no other reason than to show what a great fan of the game you are -- It epitomizes thoughtless, self-absorbed posturing in thought and action and the forums would probably be better if it never happened again.

Nope. The hood was closed when the beta went live. They will tinker with the ECU and maybe fix some broken parts, but if you think its time for design decisions to be reevaluated, you just dont get the development lifecycle.
Beta comes after Alpha, Alpha comes after Programming, Programming comes after Spec Complete (with some overlap for Agile)

 

[Genus]

Nope. The hood was closed when the beta went live. They will tinker with the ECU and maybe fix some broken parts, but if you think its time for design decisions to be reevaluated, you just dont get the development lifecycle.
Beta comes after Alpha, Alpha comes after Programming, Programming comes after Spec Complete (with some overlap for Agile)

Yeah, it's all about the definition of "viable" in MVP with this lot.

Beta is about whether it functions, not about whether it "works".

 

[Blackcompany]

Yeah, it's all about the definition of "viable" in MVP with this lot.

Beta is about whether it functions, not about whether it "works".

Very true.

And apparently, Fdev still believe that time sinks retain players...in large enough numvers to fundbonline games.

That might have worked in the world of scarce games that was 1984. You took what you could get.

Have you seen Steam sales? People dont need time sink grind just to have games to play.

 

[Genus]

Have you seen Steam sales? People dont need time sink grind just to have games to play.

Indeed. I've been working through my Steam and Origin backlog myself. Recently been playing through old saves of X 1-3, ready for the new release. Along with Mass Effect 1-3 ready for Anthem. And Asseto Corsa is just well shiny on a GT Wheelset, also a few Rally games in the locker.

I figure by the time I'm through catching up, there might be something fun to do in ED. Although I can't get interest on my credits in the mean-time, I consider it a worthwhile notion.

 

[Imgran]

OK go on - let's see if you can prove it *reads on*

I already have. If you missed it, that's not my problem.

No proof though. OK, that was fun remember player feedback is what got us here. There is no way they're ever EVER going to throw away the purpose of the engineer process being to get folk to do and try lots of different activities so we have to work from that position.

No problem with trying different activities. BIG problem with locking important features of the game behind pure busywork with one and precisely one way to accomplish it. I feel the distinction is nontrivial. It's the lack of creativity in gating the Engineers that I really have an issue with.

For example, if there was a place you could go to pirate Fujin Tea with a reasonable drop rate (I mean, it's a rare, but there should still be a chance to find one floating in the wreckage every now and again somewhere near the home system), I'd have a much smaller problem with that particular Engineer. Think of that as a case in point for what i'm really trying to say as well as an example of how to potentially loosen things up a little. Even in forcing players to try new things, there should be options for the stubborn, even if they are far less optimal than the preferred method.

I'd drop the preening stuff too btw, it's a very poor effort and I've plenty of criticisms of the game. Try and make your points without redrawing me in cartoonish simplicity, you'll look less silly.

Typically preening reaction And one of the beauties of cartoons is that they can afford to mock the ridiculous in ways that it wouldn't be polite to try to do in any other format.

 

[frostypaw]

I already have. If you missed it, that's not my problem.

Eh? No. And I think you've discarded any opportunity to have your views taken seriously there. If you're going to act like that over people disagreeing with you they'll just not bother and write you off.

 

[Genus]

Meep, Meep

 

[Imgran]

Eh? No. And I think you've discarded any opportunity to have your views taken seriously there. If you're going to act like that over people disagreeing with you they'll just not bother and write you off.

I didn't dismiss you because you disagree with me, I disagree with you because most of your arguments make no sense, a lot of them are objectively wrong, and you have a strong tendency towards smug dismissiveness in the way you say things. If you don't want to rub people the wrong way, maybe stop trying to pretend your g don't stink.

 

[Sylveria]

It may help to avoid circular disagreements here if people stick to the facts instead of heavily opinionated language.

As far as Engineering goes, it's been long due for changes. The only real disagreement is to what changes are implemented and their meaning, really.

My disagreement is with adding time sinks just to add time sinks. Sandro says it gives the Ranks "meaning", and I disagree.

Making the paths themselves more unique and valuable may do so with adding a "grind wall". If you're a player who's already unlocked every rank to 5 there's relatively little "value" in this change... it's just a huge time sink for you. Now if they added something that doesn't currently exist as a reason to do so, that would be incentive to utilize it- not simply adding a number to the end. In a lot of cases, the advantage you have for increasing a "grandfathered" modules performance is quite meager.

Adding some random effect chance to each module would be a good incentive. This means there's a real reason to grind out each and every module as "new". Doing it just to hit a maximum number doesn't give it "meaning", it's just raising the bar in a game of limbo.

Doing something unique for each of the Ranks themselves could be a valuable way to alleviate the time sink factor, too. What that would be, I have no idea- let's get creative, perhaps?

 

[Genus]

It may help to avoid circular disagreements here if people stick to the facts instead of heavily opinionated language.

Indeed, it seems The Clique is on another Thread Lock offensive at the moment, to coincide with the inevitable "Go Live" back draft. Just pat them on the head or have fun with them rather than engaging with the "ninjas falling from trees" as the Chinese General used to say.

As far as Engineering goes, it's been long due for changes. The only real disagreement is to what changes are implemented and their meaning, really.

My disagreement is with adding time sinks just to add time sinks. Sandro says it gives the Ranks "meaning", and I disagree.

Wholeheartedly, I concur. I believe the definition of "meaning" needs to be further explained if that is the case.

Doing something unique for each of the Ranks themselves could be a valuable way to alleviate the time sink factor, too. What that would be, I have no idea- let's get creative, perhaps?

Are we still crossing our fingers after four years? At this point one can only imagine the brief itself is coming from elsewhere.

 

[Jethzk]

OP's argument is that FDev took a game that was 'play your way' and made it 'play our way'. I agree. It's the main reason I don't like engineers and haven't done a lot of engineering to my ships.

The material broker is a BIG step in the right direction. Allowing me to trade materials from jobs I enjoy to jobs I don't. It still doesn't encompass a lot of the game, because trading and exploring without the mission system doesn't reward players with materials. At least now there is an end goal, something that is achievable without endless hours of grind (3.0 beta).

I still don't see the value of grind in the first place. At it's heart, Elite is a space simulation game, with a splash of economics thrown in at the beginning. (Those economics fail for late game, but I've beaten that horse to death in other posts.) Everything we do is just an excuse to fly a ship. It's the flight model that's fun and keeps us playing. I don't see any downsides to letting players fly the ship they want at a quicker pace. For me, the game became a lot more enjoyable when I was able to do what I want, when I want. (Aka had the right ship for the job).

Engineering poses another significant design challenge, power creep. An unengineered ship doesn't compete with an engineered ship. Period. That puts us at a weird situation where engineered players are struggling to find challenging content, while unengineered players struggle when they start going against engineered bounty hunters. There is no win in this sitation, unless the power creep is smaller, but that doesn't sit well with a player base that has worked hard for what they have. There needs to be a [stock] ship class that get's tagged onto unengineered ships. Allow players to host tournaments/races on even footing.

I'm rambling now, but these are just my thoughts. Engineering was a big step in the wrong direction because it took a play it your way game, and made it play this way. It also introduced a massive power creep problem that we still do not have an answer to. If I could go back to playing the base game without Horizon's and engineers tacked on, I would.

 

[Jethzk]

Best of it's abilities? You buy a new ship as a shell, not as a complete package. Let's flip things around towards another real-world situation (the following story is fictional by the way).

I buy a new computer, the case it comes in has all the stuff I want. Plenty of space for HDDs and SSDs, E-ATX compatibility, dual PSU slots, spare PCI backplates for riser cards, plenty of internal capacity for watercooling or even phase change cooling and it looks really snazzy. Unfortunately, despite that potential, it's not a very good computer, the barebones internals supplied with the case are barely enough to class it as a functioning computer, let alone the best possible machine that can fit into the case.

The next step is quite simple, I upgrade the computer to the limits of conventionally available technology. I shop around, visit a few places and eventually stock up on the best hardware that is available at retail. Comes at a pretty price, but it provides a massive increase over the factory original internals that my computer came with. This overall doesn't take too long though, just an evenings work checking a few retailers to get the best I can. As I'm testing the components, I start looking into the diagnostics and the firmware controls, and despite it being the best I could find on the common market, there's probably more that can be done with my new maxed-out hardware; I guess I'll have to send some emails out and make some phone calls to some specialists to see if I can get more out of my hardware.

Working through an entire chain of contacts, I manage to get in touch with a former overclocking champion. He looks at my hardware but sees that I'll need to get some replacement subcomponents for him to work with, those standard capacitors won't do the job properly, plus I'll need to upgrade my cooling systems significantly; to make matters worse, he informs me that he only really works with RAM, to make the most of my computer requires me to speak to specialists for every single type of component.

Fast forward 6 months, where half the components on each of my boards have been replaced with specialist models, including cherry picking them off high-end production lines for optimum performance, I'm in regular contact with both numerous overclocking champions as well as industry specialists (including a few unofficial informers working for the manufacturers who helped me illegally to jailbreak parts of the processors to optimise performance further) to make the most of what I've got. I've travelled the entire world, I've bribed, blackmailed and seduced my way into every relevant technical field, I've had everything in my computer scanned and modified by the greatest machinery and minds the world has to offer; the story behind my quest for making the most behind my computer would make a great novel. My computer has a whole phase change cascade cooling loop, I'm running the computer through a whole bank of UPS systems to provide stable input voltage and the voltages provided to each and every single component are hair-raisingly scary, but I finally have the best version of my computer possible.

Was it worth it? It's higher performance, if not the best possible performance, so it might have been. However, seeking performance so far above and beyond what is normal is a quickfire way to waste a huge amount of time, and should not be for everyone. Sure, I get into the rankings, I beat everyone else on the benchmarks and get crazy framerates even at the highest resolutions known to man,; the question though is about whether it was worth it. Such maddening extremes aren't for everyone, most people are better off just going for the standard off-the-shelf stuff, possibly with a tweak or two to improve performance.

Long story short - if you want performance then you had better be prepared to put the effort in to achieve it. Engineers are not perfect (which is largely why they are changing them to be gradual increases in stats rather than a gambling machine that requires 1000s of materials), but getting into the mindset of "I need to do this in order to have fun" is not a healthy way of thinking about things. Do things as normal, visit engineers when you are in the area or whenever you are getting full of rare materials and then profit over time. Think of them as a period of settling into a new ship, not a 6+ hour grind before using a ship.

Please use analogies you actually know about. As a PC enthusiest and overclocker, I found this post very painful to read. It's obvious you don't know what your talking about.

 

[Muetdhiver]

I think FD has an issue with being "One step away from greatness".

Call me silly, but I was expecting more from the engineers update. Stuff like reping with missions,
or getting upgrades by completing a mission from them.

What they did was what anyone would expect from a MVP revision : remove one layer of RNG lasagna (good, respects players time),
add mat traders (a feature present in every single open game with crafting) add workshop engineering (good, saves time).

Then...

Someone, somewhere screwed up. By adding G1-G5 time tolls (let's be frank, this "mechanic" does not provide any valuable gameplay,
it's just a material tax for G5's, and as such a time sink in the purest form). By choosing mind bogglingly bad conversion ratios at the
traders. It's almost as if someone in the design deparment has a "time is skill, time is engagement" work motto.

On the other hand : no rework of the material collection gameplay, half of it is still relying on disjointed game mechanics that no one
uses, like Wake scanning. There is a reason for that : Wake scanning is a game mechanic that is not pivotal to any major gameplay loop.
Bounty hunting ? Nope. Piracy ? Rarely ever.

ProTip FD : If you want engineers to get more engagement, instead of making them slower to use, make the underlying gameplay
(material collection) more interesting and better integrated with actual gameplay loops, with more paths for every materials.

Good running start, stumble at the last step, land one step from greatness. Every single time.

Don't get me wrong, 3.0 is Good. Just, not "Great".

 

[Jethzk]

You've already bought the game, no subscriptions after that. Someone else can then buy the game and play it as intended and be happy - all good.

If you think word of mouth and reviews don't mean anything, your hugely mistaken. I myself talked 3 other players into buying this game. If I didn't like the game to begin with, would Frontier still have 3 more customers?

Cash train is exactly how EA killed CoD. Who cares about content when we can sell more games?! In retrospect, the buyers care! CoD: Modern warfare 3 (2011) sold 30 million copies. CoD:WWII (2017) sold 12 million copies. More than half the people who bought CoD from 2010-2015 don't buy into the CoD brand anymore.

FDev might have sold one copy of a game, but if they want future game support (and they are a multi-game company), along with microtransaction support, they better care what people think! The good news is, they do care, that's why 2018 Beyond isn't a paid expansion and is meant to shore up parts of the game that need it.

 

[Funny]

I’ve seen a few posts saying that unengineered ships perform just fine in PvE, but that’s wrong. As a bounty hunter, encountering an engineered weapon in an unengineered ship means you need to either flee with your earnings, or die on the spot. So yeah, not avoidable. And the unlock process is truly ridiculous btw. Still not done...

 

[Blackcompany]

I’ve seen a few posts saying that unengineered ships perform just fine in PvE, but that’s wrong. As a bounty hunter, encountering an engineered weapon in an unengineered ship means you need to either flee with your earnings, or die on the spot. So yeah, not avoidable. And the unlock process is truly ridiculous btw. Still not done...

That's just it. Either place yourself at a disadvantage, or suffer. Tedious, time sink grind is not content, it's just filler. Just a time sink.

Ad that is all Elite is. Repetitive time sinks. It's why it can't retain new players. It's why the player base is a fraction of the purchase base. It's why Horizons didn't sell well.

And now here they are, making the same mistake all over again.

 

[nanite2000]

It’s why you keep playing, and it’s why *you* keep making the same ‘mistake’ over and over again.

 

[NeilF]

Engineers foster burnout and frustration by introducing a wait wall between the acquisition of a ship, and the ship's ability to live up to its full potential. The wait wall adds nothing - not unique game play, memorable characters, interesting stories...literally nothing but tedious grind. Which fosters burnout in players.

Engineers should exist in a way that minimizes downtime, and time spent not blazing the trail we want to blaze. Instead, they maximize time spent playing the way FDEV says we have to, and staring at loading screens and menus. This is textbook bad implementation.

The Engineers is what finally finished my regular time with the game. The mechanic, where harvesting/farming materials, doing stuff you don't enjoy, to simply allow you to do repeat tedious journeys to an Engineer, to do tedious upgrades/rolls, basically be a needless upper tier of performance, just finally added that last straw to my camel, and bang! Stopped playing the game.


I really do think, rather than blue print pinning, if you could simply engineer (with any unlocked engineer) at any station, that would really ease up on the gameplay, and simply allow CMDRs to engineer in a more laid back and friendly fashion.

Obviously you'd need to go to engineers to unlock them and apply side effects, but otherwise, just let us engineer more easily and remove move of the needless hassles/tedium.