Engineers: Reality and Human Nature vs. Design Intent - Why the design Creates Tedium

[Rudal]

Does FDEV really believe that literally wasting your customers' time is a good idea? That this will foster positive feelings - and, more importantly, positive reviews and repeat purchases of game content? Of course it wont. Which is why roughly 50% of those who try the game, never leave a Sidewinder, and why a very, very large percentage of the install base is no longer playing the game. Because FDEV would rather waste our time, then help us enjoy it.

While I agree with you on most parts of your post there is one thing I want to remind you.
FDev wants us to be involved in "this content" cause there's almost nothing else to do in Elite.
I'm explorer. Once I finish with the content you described in OP I have nothing else to do beside flying from one dot to another performing the same "ping" tasks again.

I think your anger (?) should be directed at the whole game and not just the Engineering aspect of it.
I don't like the bit where you have to grind your way from G1 to G5 every time with every single module but in general I don't really give a crap about which "way" is better. The one on live server or the one in Beta.
There's too many things broken in this game. It;s like going to a workshop to tweak your weapons while you don't have anything to shoot.

 

[Blackcompany]

Seriously you need to take a step back and try playing another game. With so much you don't like about the game why the heck are you folk here?

It seems very unlikely they'll listen to you if you like so little of their product as they'd have to change so much to make it into a game you'd like while they're doing just fine as is with plenty of sales and players - probably best to accept that and either move on or suck it up.

Yep. Its definitely time to step away again. After getting hit from a bug from 2016 while playing this morning, its time to find a well designed, fun game to play. Clearly, that eliminates this one from contention, but yes, its time for another break.

Hopefully, 3.0 fixes some of the glaring flaws. But seeing as how its not going to alter the underlying design philosophy, which is the root of the problem, I doubt it.

 

[Chrystoph]

Well written summation of the RNGineers dilemma.

Repped

 

[Red Anders]

Regardless of your opinion on the content of the post, I've never understood the pride people take in having a tiny attention span. Someone wrote a long post; either read it or don't read it but really, replying to offer nothing but a comment on the length of the OP just makes those of you doing it look like a bunch of divs.

Titling a thread as if it was a dissertation is another matter completely, nobody gets a pass on that, but come on.

 

[Sylveria]

I paid for the game is a very bad argument. I also paid for Skyrim but I don't want to be a sorcerer. But parts of the game are only possible for sorcerers, so the game is locking me out of content that I paid for. I can make this argument for almost every game that gives me some freedom. It's such a week argument.

Yeah, I have to agree with this point- I don't expect to experience every little thing about a game when I buy it, so the cost/value thing is a bit weak for argument.

Seriously you need to take a step back and try playing another game. With so much you don't like about the game why the heck are you folk here?

It seems very unlikely they'll listen to you if you like so little of their product as they'd have to change so much to make it into a game you'd like while they're doing just fine as is with plenty of sales and players - probably best to accept that and either move on or suck it up.

Whilst I understand (and agree) that those who definitively convey sentiment that they don't enjoy the game in any fashion whatsoever (so much that they don't even play anymore) are still lingering about on the forums, I do have to equally agree they make some valid points from time to time. (of which, I try to be objective enough to read) What really gets to me, however, is assertions that somehow their personal opinions that the game isn't enjoyable must absolutely mean the game is dying or in death throes or dead... as stated with the below quote.

Neither of those is a satisfactory solution to the growing problem of embarrassingly lazy design plaguing Elite. And defending it sure isnt going to win the game a sufficient player base to keep this massive, online game getting the updates it needs to survive for the long term.

Barring major changes to the underlying design philosophy, I'll be (pleasantly) surprised if this ship remains sailing in 2020.

Some have been tooting this horn since the KS. Sorry BlackCompany, I understand some of your points and even agree with some of them- but this I just can't agree with.

It will continue to exist, in some form or fashion, and continue to be enjoyable to many others, too. Am I irritated over certain aspects of the game? Sure I am. But that doesn't equate to doom prophecy.

 

[askavir]

I paid for the game is a very bad argument. I also paid for Skyrim but I don't want to be a sorcerer. But parts of the game are only possible for sorcerers, so the game is locking me out of content that I paid for. I can make this argument for almost every game that gives me some freedom. It's such a week argument.

And in Skyrim you also don't exactly start playing with an enchanted Daedric sword and full Dragonbone armor either...

 

[frostypaw]

Yep. Its definitely time to step away again. After getting hit from a bug from 2016 while playing this morning, its time to find a well designed, fun game to play. Clearly, that eliminates this one from contention, but yes, its time for another break.

Hopefully, 3.0 fixes some of the glaring flaws. But seeing as how its not going to alter the underlying design philosophy, which is the root of the problem, I doubt it.

It seems unlikely it'll make it what you want, as much of what you're calling flaws are the actual game others are playing. From your OP examples which do not meet with my experiences of owning a sports car to your continued decrying of every aspect of the game that isn't the specific thing you want to do it's just not for you.

That's ok.

 

[Kubicide]

I feel with the OP. When engineers came out in 2.1 I quit the game for months. I had finally build my fleet, and now I had to do it all over again, because I too get most enjoyment in the game by flying ships that excel at their given task to the best of their ability. My legacy ships will still function pretty well, but if I want to have the best tools in the shed, I have get to work yet again. The real problem is though, once you're through the grind and have the fleet back where you want it, you still have no game left to play. ED minus grind is no game.

This is it. And FDev knows that if they reduce the engineering grind then much of the game disappears. And more folks will see once again just how shallow things are.

If there's any doubt then look at what they've done here with this change in the beta. Its like a shell game. They've simply moved the wait / grind times around so now the up-front material collection is longer. Having to play hide-and-seek to find Traders, get rep, deal with reduced spawns and quantities, crazy trade amounts, etc. The Traders have turned out to actually be new grind lol! All of these things are ridiculous. Yet some are eating it up as its new for their core gameplay of constant engineering with changes to running around collecting stuff.

If there's still doubt then simply, as others have mentioned, look at what they did for this weekend where they've removed the massive grind wall(s) to get folks to play the free beta. Trying to think of any other game where they've had to this in a beta - to drastically reduce gameplay mechanics to get folks to play - but then restore them for release.

I'll keep sitting this one out. BTW What happened to the "Fail of Beyond...." thread?

 

[Sylveria]

BTW What happened to the "Fail of Beyond...." thread?

Probably went the way of extinction, as many, many other "doom prophecy" threads have over the course of years as others continue to enjoy the game.

All of them have the privilege of existing on a forum which lasts for years even when people swear that it will all end tomorrow!

 

[CMDR Pugwash]

People said they were quitting after the first round of Engineers as well. Some of those did, some of those didn't. There are some people declaring they are quitting time and time again... i gets a bit of a joke when those people then don't for the Nth time.

Some people will quit anyway.

Some people would declare they are quitting if FD did it differently, possibly if they did it how OP would like them to do it.

There is no absoloute right here like you claim the OP to be. The fact that some people enjoy it simply means some people enjoy it while others don't. Same with any feature. Some people like PvP, some people like working the BGS, some people like mining, some people like exploring... and on the flip side, some people don't like doing those things. Does it mean that those things are bad?

Sorry Auntie, I only just saw this. I'm not a doom monger and will always play ED, just not as much as I would have. As I have said elsewhere I will wait for the Q4 core improvements before passing final judgement.

So to answer your question, all the other things are optional. I can do them if I want to, or not. People feel that Engineers, rightly or wrongly, are compulsory if they want to be competitive. And we are a competitive bunch us gamers. This feeling is enhanced when FD sell the Engineers as "The Game". They make out the Engineers are the content. So we feel we have to engage with them even if we hate them.

I am glad other people enjoy them. That's just tickityboo. But some of us don't, and judging by rep these statements get, quite a lot of people.

 

[frostypaw]

This feeling is enhanced when FD sell the Engineers as "The Game". They make out the Engineers are the content.

How do you feel they do that? It was one .x update....

 

[CMDR Pugwash]

How do you feel they do that? It was one .x update....

Everything they say is about Engineers. New players are told that's what they should do. New players in particular feel very vulnerable unless they have engineered their ships.

I hope I'm wrong Frosty. Q4 will tell us, but the way things stand, if I want to escape from your super fast, super agile death star, I must make my little cobra fast enough to outrun you and to do that I must go and grind the engineers. And it is grind because I don't want to do it.

 

[Sylveria]

And it is grind because I don't want to do it.

New CMDR's use the same argument for justifying why they don't have access to an Anaconda on Day 1, too.

 

[CMDR Pugwash]

New CMDR's use the same argument for justifying why they don't have access to an Anaconda on Day 1, too.

lol. You forgot to mention an "I Win" button.

 

[Sylveria]

lol. You forgot to mention an "I Win" button.

That too

 

[jasonbirder]

I never really understand these "Engineer=Grind" threads...
Unlocking Engineers/Upgrading Modules involves Combat (to obtain Mats that only drop from destroyed ships and the Combat Rank/Combat Bonds/Bounty Vouchers some Engineers require to "unlock"), it involves Exploration and traveling certain distances, it involves scanning ships/wakes and surface datapoints, it involves finding and investigating certain USS', it involves some Rare Goods collection/trading, some (small element) of Mining and some Surface Prospecting...
Now I could be wrong...but those Elements essentially ARE Elite...that's the Gameplay...IF Combat/Mining/Trading/Exploration/Surface Prospecting ISN'T Enjoyable...maybe Elite really ISN'T the game for you...I get that everyone finds SOME aspects of the game more enjoyable than others (I personally like Combat/Exploration/Surface Exploration MORE than i like Mining/Trading/Passengers but each to their OWN) but its obvious the Engineer requirements were SPECIFICALLY put in to encourage people to interact and try different Gameplay elements...I guess travelling from place to place in short jump range ships takes longer than people would like...BUT its not COMPULSORY to do everything in an FDL/Corvette is it? Short FSD range is their drawback to make up for their Combat ability (Its called balance)
It was also OVERTLY stated when Horizons dropped that ED didn't envisage Players racing around to quickly get G5 upgrades on all their modules...their intent was for players to acquire unlocks/mats organically as they played Elite and so gradually and incrementally upgrade their modules through normal gameplay...
The idea that people would immediately acquire maximum materials and min/max rolls on all their G5 modules wasn't factored into their original design (hence the original) small Materials/Data storage caps...It never occured to ED that people would aproach engineering that way...so it hardly seems fair to complain "Getting whats needed for Multiple G5 rolls on Multiple Modules quickly is repetitive and boring" when the answer is so obviously "well you're not INTENDED to get multiple G5 rolls on multiple modules QUICKLY...its boring because essentially you're gaming the system"

 

[Dommarraa]

Give people a pack of cards and no guidance on how to use them, and they will start playing Pickup 52.

Don't expect them to play poker without any clues.

 

[frostypaw]

Everything they say is about Engineers. New players are told that's what they should do. New players in particular feel very vulnerable unless they have engineered their ships.

I hope I'm wrong Frosty. Q4 will tell us, but the way things stand, if I want to escape from your super fast, super agile death star, I must make my little cobra fast enough to outrun you and to do that I must go and grind the engineers. And it is grind because I don't want to do it.

They absolutely do not - other players do that. Can't begin to count how often I've seen since is "engineer it" as advice on everything from other players complete with a description of how to grind the process and reduce it to bare mechanics and a whinge about how awful the grind is - and all that to the point where I've seen new users grind out G5 mods on E-grade starter equipment cos nobody ever bothered to tell them about the ratings.

Simple solution - don't play with those idiots in Open. Tell FDev that's what they've done to their game. Take the feedback to where it's appropriate and we all benefit especially new players.

 

[Mengy]

I agree with the naysayers. I don't like the way the engineers have been implemented or designed as a time wasting grindwall that forces players to play in specific ways in order to progress. 3.0 does a lot to improve the engineers honestly and I love all of the changes (but one), but THEN they go and take an immense step backwards and implement the G1-G5 grade grind. Why? Why was it necessary to add a new mechanic which eats up all of the time savings the other changes gained? If they had just done the other changes yet still left us pick and choose which grade we wanted then the engineers would have overall been much improved for 3.0. Now it's instead very much a mixed bag.

It's like Frontier's vision for the engineers has always been to make them a huge timesink meant to eat up the players time, and anything changed to lessen that has to be counteracted by something to move it back to a time wasting feature.

Again, why is it so important to waste the players time and force them to do things they don't want to?

Like Blackcompany said, if you want to engineer your ship then you have to play the way Frontier is forcing you to, there is no choice. You need to climb the grindwall because Frontier wants you to, that's it. And I'll do it because I want my ships to be the best they can be. What saddens me is the fact that Frontier seems so focused on wasting and disrespecting the players time. It's become a pattern with their game design for Elite: grinding in place of gameplay. I just wish it wasn't so. They came so close with the 3.0 engineer revamp, but this intense focus on timesinks and grindwalls just seems to be too much of a core design focus for Frontier. I don't see them removing the grade grind though, they seem very intent on keeping it despite the overwhelming negativity about it from most of the players. Such a shame, because this is likely the last time they will go back to overhaul the engineers. We'll be stuck with this grade grind from here on out more than likely. For every single module on every single ship we fly. Yay?

 

[Red Anders]

Again, why is it so important to waste the players time...

I sense most design meetings pan out something like this:

When something is as ingrained as it seems to be here, I'd usually say start at the top and work down to find out where it comes from. Probably not going to be a long journey either.