Engineers: Reality and Human Nature vs. Design Intent - Why the design Creates Tedium

I run in open and have no issues. So no the game does not force that on you.

I bounty hunt, go into combat zone etc and have no issues. I don't PvP.

As to others "superior performance" I really do not care. These players will be better then me at combat anyway. No matter how much I engineer my T7 a FdL will make mincemeat of it.

Congratulations then, you are resisting the coercion.

Don't be fatheaded enough to try to sit there and claim that means there is no coercion to participate in Engineers. Psychological armtwisting is still armtwisting.

You really need to take a few courses on psychology, my dude. This is 101 level stuff.
 
I sense most design meetings pan out something like this:

https://i.imgur.com/MJjq9fx.jpg

When something is as ingrained as it seems to be here, I'd usually say start at the top and work down to find out where it comes from. Probably not going to be a long journey either.

This is all good and fine but what they've done is directly address what people whinged about. No more RNG to it and really a trivial number of rolls to get right to the top - but it was never going to entirely go away or become easy to waltz through while only playing one fraction of the whole game.

What really did people expect? This is what (most) everyone asked for. I guess the "whole be careful what you wish for" adage is proven once more - sad to see the devs still copping the blame.
 
This is all good and fine but what they've done is directly address what people whinged about. No more RNG to it and really a trivial number of rolls to get right to the top - but it was never going to entirely go away or become easy to waltz through while only playing one fraction of the whole game.

What really did people expect? This is what (most) everyone asked for. I guess the "whole be careful what you wish for" adage is proven once more - sad to see the devs still copping the blame.

I don't profess to speak for anybody else. As for being careful what I wish for, guess what? I wasn't one of the people who wished for this to begin with.

You're missing the point though, which is that there are still wholly artificial timesinks in place, by which I mean things that make things take longer just so that they will take longer.

Do you remember before 2.1 was released people had crazy notions like leveling up with engineers might involve some mission-based gameplay? Do you remember that a massive part of the reason for the whole engineering gangfrak when it was first released was that nobody had any idea how much grind would be involved because it had been obfuscated in the beta by the process not involving exactly what it would on the live servers?

As for removing the RNG, just off the top of my head one of the biggest RNG timesinks is the collection of rare materials from high grade USSs and if you take a look at the exchange rates from material brokers you'll see that they're quite blatantly designed as a way to trade down, not up. That should tell you that the intended gameplay is for you to still frak about flying around systems for an hour in SC to get drops from high grade USSs; the only difference is that you will be able to convert a few of your grade 5 materials for some lower grade ones to use in the grade 1-4 recipes that you didn't need to do at all before this change.

You seem to be looking at this from a 'players want an easy button' perspective. I'm sure some do but that's not my concern at all.
 
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Meh - let those people leave. The people who try and exploit and break it like that aren't really an asset - a few for QA/bug finding perhaps but what you describe isn't helpful in a game's community.
Yes, screw those paying customers who play the game in a way I don't like, I'm sure FDev's profit margins can do without them.

What universe do you live in?
 
I don't profess to speak for anybody else. As for being careful what I wish for, guess what? I wasn't one of the people who wished for this to begin with.

Yeah I didn't either, but it's what the community demanded. Sorry just reacting as it was you who posted the pic

Yes, screw those paying customers who play the game in a way I don't like, I'm sure FDev's profit margins can do without them.

What universe do you live in?

You've already bought the game, no subscriptions after that. Someone else can then buy the game and play it as intended and be happy - all good.
 
I paid for the game is a very bad argument. I also paid for Skyrim but I don't want to be a sorcerer. But parts of the game are only possible for sorcerers, so the game is locking me out of content that I paid for. I can make this argument for almost every game that gives me some freedom. It's such a week argument.

Very few parts of Skyrim are locked behind a specific playstyle. Heck, you can become the Archmage of the College of Winterhold by beating Ancano over the head repeatedly with a mace and shield if you want to. it's kind of a model game in that respect.

Very few situations in Skyrim have only one solution, even those that have preferred solutions, such as the battle against Ancano for rule of the local school of magic, can easily be creatively solved in a number of ways, and those that are one-solution-only generally come down to you not having worked hard enough in your skills to solve them in other ways. and that's before you even get into a modding community that can never exist for an online community like Elite: dangerous that gives you even more options.

Skyrim has its flaws, but in terms of player freedom, it's a model that FD badly need to learn from.

That said, paying for the game is a poor argument in this case anyway, but not for the reason you've cited. Choosing not to participate in a game mode behind which content is locked is not a valid complaint unless the game mode is somehow toxic or the content required for ultimate success, and as much as there is a coercive factor in forcing people to engineer, it can be done without.

It should still, however, be possible to unlock engineers in more than 1 way. Problems with only 1 solution are toxic in a freeform game. THAT is lazy.
 
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You've already bought the game, no subscriptions after that. Someone else can then buy the game and play it as intended and be happy - all good.

Your statement might actually make some sense if Fdev didn't do a brisk business on microtransactions and cosmetic mods.

Since it does though, you're simply wrong, unequivocally. Retention matters a great deal to FDev's current business model and they need to do a better job of addressing the fundamental concerns about excessive busywork inherent in the Engineers system as it's being implemented.

This is especially critical because its' unlikely they'll go back to it in the functioning lifetime of Elite: Dangerous. If you want changes in Engineers, NOW is the time to agitate for them. I'm sorry if you get frustrated with that, but your prim-princess act isn't actually helping anything.
 
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What really did people expect? This is what (most) everyone asked for. I guess the "whole be careful what you wish for" adage is proven once more - sad to see the devs still copping the blame.

I am pretty confident that absolutely no one asked for the need to level every single module from G1 to G5 on every ship, everytime. The engineer rep grind was enough, I don't recall ever seeing anyone ask to place the same rep grind onto every module going forward.

If you can find a single post asking for exactly that though then I'd be much appreciated.
 
I am pretty confident that absolutely no one asked for the need to level every single module from G1 to G5 on every ship, everytime. The engineer rep grind was enough, I don't recall ever seeing anyone ask to place the same rep grind onto every module going forward.

If you can find a single post asking for exactly that though then I'd be much appreciated.

Agreed. Nobody wanted that but FDev. And it would be illuminating to know why, since I have no idea.
 
Agreed. Nobody wanted that but FDev. And it would be illuminating to know why, since I have no idea.

Well according to Sandro in one the livestreams, it was to give the Engineering ranks "meaning".

I thoroughly disagree, but in the end it's his reputation and career on the line here. :)
 
Well according to Sandro in one the livestreams, it was to give the Engineering ranks "meaning".

I thoroughly disagree, but in the end it's his reputation and career on the line here. :)

So it's about "pride and accomplishment?" To quote the single most downvoted comment in Reddit history?

Great. Some brass numbskull in corporate at FDev has gotten it into his head that increased tedium increases player time in game which is good for retention. That... is not good. And yet it explains so much.
 
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So it's about "pride and accomplishment?" To quote the single most downvoted comment in Reddit history?

Well, I can't speak for Sandro's actual reasons, only his methodology and implementation as he noted personally on the livestream in which he stated that was the whole purpose behind the change. IMO, it's similar to going to a mechanic who's senile and has to re-learn everything to work on an engine, but I digress I suppose.
 
Your statement might actually make some sense if Fdev didn't do a brisk business on microtransactions and cosmetic mods.

Since it does though, you're simply wrong, unequivocally.

A replacement for you will also buy those, it's not the big deal you want it to be. The changes you demand aren't ever going to happen - you gotta accept that the intention is to make you try and sample lots of different activities and that's never going to change.

I am pretty confident that absolutely no one asked for the need to level every single module from G1 to G5 on every ship, everytime. The engineer rep grind was enough, I don't recall ever seeing anyone ask to place the same rep grind onto every module going forward.

If you can find a single post asking for exactly that though then I'd be much appreciated.

Oh I can't find that but that was always and fairly explicitly the intention and never going to change. Taking that into consideration this outcome was inevitable and predicted long ago.
 
Well according to Sandro in one the livestreams, it was to give the Engineering ranks "meaning".

I thoroughly disagree, but in the end it's his reputation and career on the line here. :)

The "pass" line at the craps table (about 48%) is a better bet. :)

When you go senile, your work skills are about the last thing you lose. :/

You don't want *me* driving your commuter bird. :(
 
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