The Star Citizen Thread V2.0

[Mr.Nowak]

Problems with a healthy competition? Aren't you American?
I think competition is something that benefits all, therefore i wonder why you always reject the comparison of both games.

And isn't it CIG who always were very proud in announcing the "BDSSE"?!!!
To say that one will create the "BEST EVER" is always a direct slap in the face of all competitors, therefore your agrumentation goes completely the wrong way.

AND: The problem is not about the "quantity of content". CIG produced even more content with all their different ships/hangars/(aquariums&fishs)/background images. The real deal is the "quality of content" regarding immersion, plausibility and necessity. In ED everything fits together whereas in SC you got a lot of chunks of unbalanced ideas.

What has it to do with being American? The way you are spinning things is not healthy competition. How can you have a healthy competition when a game is 3 months before release and the other one is 3 years before release?

That's like comparing a racing car that starts the race at the finish line with the one that starts it at the first quarter. The whole BDSSE is always marked with Hopefully and We aim to. It's what they are tryıng to do.

In ED everything fits better because the game is far ahead in development. It reached it's beta. While Star Citizen is on the way to Arena Commander 0.9. The reason why you get a lot of chunks is because the pieces are still being put together. AC is not feature complete and it's just a tiny piece of Star Citizen just like the Hangar is.

Also I am German.

 

[psyron]

How can you have a healthy competition when a game is 3 months before release and the other one is 3 years before release?

But kickstarter started at the same time and it wasn't FD who said they will create the BDSSE! That's a big difference.
And also it isn't FD's fault if CIG postpone the release of SC every 6 months to an even more far away date. Is it?


Sorry, i like professionals doing a professional job. CIG does not.

The whole BDSSE is always marked with Hopefully and We aim to. It's what they are tryıng to do.

I know. That's what politicians always say after the election: "Those weren't promises!"
Sorry, i don't believe in politicians anymore and nor do i believe what CIG and CR are promising ("Hopefully aiming to").

 

[Stormprooter]

In ED everything fits better because the game is far ahead in development. It reached it's beta. While Star Citizen is on the way to Arena Commander 0.9. The reason why you get a lot of chunks is because the pieces are still being put together. AC is not feature complete and it's just a tiny piece of Star Citizen just like the Hangar is.

Yep, I understand that Arena Commander is not finished yet, but I do not understand those who quite vocally say it's already 'perfect' and 'awesome' - because it isn't - I think that is what rubs up against many of us here. (Not saying you are in that group)
Also, the perceived attitude of CIG and its priorities are also of concern.

You are still keeping the faith in CIG and CR - many of us have lost patience with the CIG hype machine, and the masses that have fallen under its spell.

 

[Mr.Nowak]

But kickstarter started at the same time and it wasn't FD who said they will create the BDSSE! That's a big difference.
And also it isn't FD's fault if CIG postpone the release of SC every 6 months to an even more far away date. Is it?


Sorry, i like professionals doing a professional job. CIG does not.

I know. That's what politicians always say after the election: "Those weren't promises!"

Sorry, i don't believe in politicians anymore and nor do i believe what CIG and CR are promising ("Hopefully aiming to").

FD didn't receive huge millions and has private investors. It is an established studio. CIG didn't think they would receive this much and scaled up the game according to the funding they would get.

CIG is full of professional people with ages in this industry. As a company they are just newborn though. That doesn't change the fact that what SC was in the kickstarter was an indie game. We are past that stage now the aim is way better.

All SC dates are internal estimates. If you don't understand the word ''hopefully'', ''we aim to'', ''we hope for'' then what can anybody do? There is a reason these words exist.

But again you think FD and CIG started on the same ground. NOPE. There was no CIG in 1994 but there was FD. There was only a tiny apartment when CIG started up while FD had proper offices.

FD had years to prototype and work together to increase their efficiency and tech capabilities. They pushed several games out. CIG's team experience was 0, The Cryengine experience they had was minimal and they're prototype was a simple tech demo that was made by mainly outsourcers.

But yea but them in the same bottle and equal footing and think you are right.

Yep, I understand that Arena Commander is not finished yet, but I do not understand those who quite vocally say it's already 'perfect' and 'awesome' - because it isn't - I think that is what rubs up against many of us here. (Not saying you are in that group)
Also, the perceived attitude of CIG and its priorities are also of concern.

You are still keeping the faith in CIG and CR - many of us have lost patience with the CIG hype machine, and the masses that have fallen under its spell.

To be honest I don't think that AC is finished or awesome for me it is in the good category with nice experiences. One of my buddies from my org tried out AC and said he was amazed by everything and had a lot of fun. He didn't know how much was still missing and I ended up explaining some stuff missing from AC that will be added and he said it's already amazing and that he is looking forward to it.

So for some people it seems that this is already awesome but my gameplay bar is higher. I want more things out of AC. Better targeting, smoother flight and more tactical combat. Pretty sure these will come in time.

 

[Monarch Black]

A short recap about SC & outlook:

1. At the beginning there was that saying SC will become the BDSSE - most haven't heard about ED.
2. Then people heard about ED's impressive Alpha but there was no doubt that SC will become the BDSSE.
3. After SC's Pre-Alpha some started to think that ED might become a legitimate competitor.
4. Now many agree that ED is miles ahead of SC but nevertheless many still think that down the road SC will still become the BDSEE.
5. In the time ED will be released many will agree that ED is the BDSEE to date, nevertheless watching out for SC to become the BDSEE in 2016-2018.
6. 2015-2016 and after the release of planetary landing for ED people may understand that FD is so much ahead of CIG that no matter how much money they put into it, they will not be able to deliver a game that will be able to compete with the existing and continously evolving ED having now permanentely earn the name of the BDSEE.
7. What happens at the release of SC? I don't know ...

Most SC fans won't like this outlook. But from what i have heard and seen so far from both SC and ED, up to this moment, this is the most obvious outcome, imo.

EDIT:
And since a forum is more about sharing personal views than reposting information from other sites i think this post is absolutely legitimate here.

I think this looks very plausible. CIG has gotten behind and there are going to be quite a few space sim and similar games out by the time SC launches. They are going to have a much tougher market on retail sales than the did for the kickstarter time period. By the time they launch, the will probably already have a large percentage of people that are going to buy the game haven given CIG their money. They better not use the whole war chest making the game, because it also includes most of their sales.

And it isn't about wanting SC to fail (although the more I read the forums, the more I want those people's game to fail, it just happens to be the same SC game I also want to see succeed and invested in -- it's an internal battle). In an ideal world every game that is good gets money from all the people who like a particular genre. In reality, there are only so many hours people play computer games in a day. People say neither of these games are competition for Eve. To these people I say, "I quit playing Eve because of these games". Maybe I'm a isolated case, or maybe both these games are in fact competition for Eve. And like it or not, they are competition for each other to some extent. It isn't like everyone will only play one or the other, but one will be the favored one and get more money for micro-transactions and expansions from the player. Also, the more time invested in something, the more one cares about it, so coming late to the party once other games have people invested only makes it harder. SC's saving grace is that it already has a large number of people with big financial investments, even if they haven't played a minute of the actual game.

On a side note Psy, I liked the cognitive dissonance vid. I live in the states though, so have mostly given up trying to get people to look at this stuff. It is a huge uphill climb. You can maybe convince a couple close friends to look at some stuff and think critically, but any stranger just looks at you like a loony. Probably easier for people in other countries to think about it clearly.

Madness.

Anyway what does this mean? " With that out of the way, Cloud Imperium has decided that for a $51 million stretch goal, users will be allowed to vote on the priority of the platform team's production schedule. "

Am I misunderstanding this or are they saying this will not be a PC only game now?

You all have it all wrong. It is quite simple really. Due to popular demand the FPS part will be 3rd person. And what is the most popular 3rd person game ever... well Mario Brothers of course. So..... FPS will now be a side-scrolling platform game! Vote on whether the team works on mushrooms or turtle shells.

 

[Bains]

You all have it all wrong. It is quite simple really. Due to popular demand the FPS part will be 3rd person. And what is the most popular 3rd person game ever... well Mario Brothers of course. So..... FPS will now be a side-scrolling platform game! Vote on whether the team works on mushrooms or turtle shells.

Are you sure not Angry Birds? They do fly after all, and the controls are even simpler.

A short recap about SC & outlook:

1. At the beginning there was that saying SC will become the BDSSE - most haven't heard about ED.
2. Then people heard about ED's impressive Alpha but there was no doubt that SC will become the BDSSE.
3. After SC's Pre-Alpha some started to think that ED might become a legitimate competitor.
4. Now many agree that ED is miles ahead of SC but nevertheless many still think that down the road SC will still become the BDSEE.
5. In the time ED will be released many will agree that ED is the BDSEE to date, nevertheless watching out for SC to become the BDSEE in 2016-2018.
6. 2015-2016 and after the release of planetary landing for ED people may understand that FD is so much ahead of CIG that no matter how much money they put into it, they will not be able to deliver a game that will be able to compete with the existing and continously evolving ED having now permanentely earn the name of the BDSEE.
7. What happens at the release of SC? I don't know ...

Most SC fans won't like this outlook. But from what i have heard and seen so far from both SC and ED, up to this moment, this is the most obvious outcome, imo.

EDIT:
And since a forum is more about sharing personal views than reposting information from other sites i think this post is absolutely legitimate here.

What you should also factor in is right now ED, well on its way to a being a finished game, is in an impossible competition with the improbably second life space game that exists in the mind of so many SC backers. CR will feed and extend the belief in this fairy tale game for as long as possible by increasingly selling the idea that the game will never be finished, thereby mitigating the obvious chasm between what it always actually is and the vision in the mind of the backers.

But ultimately there will come a time when it becomes apparent to most SC backers that rather than this amazing second life space game they have long assumed was always about to appear just over the horizon, what they are actually holding, and will continue to hold regardless of the hype, is an empty sack.

 

[psyron]

FD didn't receive huge millions and has private investors. It is an established studio. CIG didn't think they would receive this much and scaled up the game according to the funding they would get.

Again! It's not the fault of FD or DB that CR had some very bad years in making bad products which resulted in having no own company and no employees. Is this a sign of good judgement from CR? Seriously?

Sorry, your argumentaion failed again.

 

[Thargon]

These discussions are getting boring now... same old thing repeated endlessly through the thread... -_-

 

[Monarch Black]

Well, SC isn't exactly oozing content to discuss. Bit of a lul at the moment. I'm sure the thread will pick back up when we have something tangible to discuss.

 

[Bains]

These discussions are getting boring now... same old thing repeated endlessly through the thread... -_-

OK, go for it, take us into new uncharted territory. I'm game

Well, SC isn't exactly oozing content to discuss. Bit of a lul at the moment. I'm sure the thread will pick back up when we have something tangible to discuss.

Indeed. It's like being on a desert island without a pack of cards and an ongoing disagreement about why the ship sunk.

 

[Thargon]

I don't think there will be much more new stuff until perhaps Gamescom which is coming up next week. Perhaps there will be something that's new and not just another level in AC or something.

OK, go for it, take us into new uncharted territory. I'm game



Indeed. It's like being on a desert island without a pack of cards and an ongoing disagreement about why the ship sunk.

And indeed which ship variant it was and why didn't LTI work?

 

[Bains]

I don't think there will be much more new stuff until perhaps Gamescom which is coming up next week. Perhaps there will be something that's new and not just another level in AC or something.

That's all you got! In that case I thought my assertion that many people genuinely believe SC will offer them a second life in which they can escape realty was tad more interesting but fair enough.

But seriously. Gamescon should be interesting, and its only next week.

 

[Thargon]

That's all you got! In that case I thought my assertion that many people genuinely believe SC will offer them a second life in which they can escape realty was tad more interesting but fair enough.

But seriously. Gamescon should be interesting, and its only next week.

I think they've been drinking too much Kool-aid if they think that

 

[Bains]

I think they've been drinking too much Kool-aid if they think that

Believe me a huge number of people are banking on this. You can always tell who as well by the level of annoyance when you suggest its 'just a game'.

 

[Voivod]

CIG is full of professional people with ages in this industry.

According to that Mittani article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doritos_Crash_Course_2

http://www.monkeyquest.com/en/index

FD had years to prototype and work together to increase their efficiency and tech capabilities.

Why didn't they have to show anything on their kickstarter then?

They pushed several games out. CIG's team experience was 0,

Are you saying that CIG's devs don't have "ages in the industry" just like you said before? Or does that not count? Do they need to re-learn everything just because they work with a new team? Do they forget their programming when they switch teams?

The Cryengine experience they had was minimal and they're prototype was a simple tech demo that was made by mainly outsourcers.

Yet the reason they picked Cryengine was because it would speed development up.
It's a ready engine for a reason... "seasoned" devs shouldn't have issues with it.
It's been how many months now since they started working with CryEngine?


Also, I'd like to mention their priorities again. Adding space race tracks and leaderboards before they fix the flight model? ;/

 

[Thargon]

I'm waiting for the Bonsai simulator that you can use to interact with your X'ian space plant.

 

[Mr.Nowak]

Again! It's not the fault of FD or DB that CR had some very bad years in making bad products which resulted in having no own company and no employees. Is this a sign of good judgement from CR? Seriously?

Sorry, your argumentaion failed again.

Again! It's not the fault of FD or DB that CR had some very bad years in making bad products which resulted in having no own company and no employees. Is this a sign of good judgement from CR? Seriously?

Sorry, your argumentaion failed again.

What? I am saying that FD didn't raised the amount of money SC did and is relying on private investors. While SC is totally crowdfunded and only relies on itself.

I am trying to explain to you that your saying they both started at the same time so it's an equal race theory is . Reasons? Here.

During Kickstarter

FD

Founded in 1994

Engine : Their own (Cobra)

Games Shipped : 28

Team Size : Around 200

Had 2 Offices

Had Private Investors waiting to see the interest in Kickstarter

Had an experienced team in game making for nearly 2 decades

Had several years of skunk work prototyping done.

Had experience in their own Cobra engine in and out

CIG

Founded in 2011

Games Shipped : 0

Engine : Not theirs (Cryengine)

Team Size : 10 -15

Had 1 tiny apartment.

Had Private Investors lined to see the interest in Kickstarter

Had a team that was not experienced with Cryengine

Had a basic tech demo that was mainly done by outsourcers

Had some working together experience but old (Mostly Pre 2003)

--

Now

--

FD - Elite Dangerous

Game Stage : Beta

Team Size : 240 (June 2014)

Funding : 2,6 million dollars in Kickstar / Big unknown amount from Investors

Has 2 Offices

--

CIG - Star Citizen

Game Stage : Pre-Alpha

Team Size : 260+ (June 2014)

Funding : 49 million dollars

Has 3 Offices

Outsources to 5 companies

--

According to that Mittani article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doritos_Crash_Course_2

http://www.monkeyquest.com/en/index

Why didn't they have to show anything on their kickstarter then?

Are you saying that CIG's devs don't have "ages in the industry" just like you said before? Or does that not count? Do they need to re-learn everything just because they work with a new team? Do they forget their programming when they switch teams?

Yet the reason they picked Cryengine was because it would speed development up.
It's a ready engine for a reason... "seasoned" devs shouldn't have issues with it.
It's been how many months now since they started working with CryEngine?


Also, I'd like to mention their priorities again. Adding space race tracks and leaderboards before they fix the flight model? ;/

I don't understand what those games have to do with anything? Explain. About the whole experience thing I am talking about Team Experience of working together. CIG is a new company they just got their system and work flow going this year. Engine experience develops with years too. Getting to truly know an engine is at least a 2 year process.

It's up to them what their priorities are but once again people think that the person making the map who is a level editor or the web developer doing the leader boards can do flight model psychics coding. Let me know when you can find a car driver who can do the job of a physicist or a mathematician.

 

[Bains]

"It looks like the Origin M50 is rocketing off the showroom floor and we’ve reached the $49 million crowd funding level! ...Congrats to all current backers of Star Citizen – you have earned a Xi’An Space Plant!"

How do they keep a straight face when drafting this?

 

[Voivod]

I don't understand what those games have to do with anything? Explain.

I mentioned the source.

About the whole experience thing I am talking about Team Experience of working together.

I'm sure it affects their performance, but I'll make sure to add it to the list SC fanboys mention for when CIG is slow or crap at developing/including features.
I'm sure it's because they've only been working with each other for 8 months that they can't get around adding custom keybindings on a ready engine.

Engine experience develops with years too. Getting to truly know an engine is at least a 2 year process.

What's your source on this? Is that for all engines or are you specifically talking about CryEngine? Again, what's your source on this?

I should show you what I've managed to spring up in a couple of months of work in Unity... hell a week of work in UE4.
You should see what talented developers can make in ready engines in a few weeks/months of work.

It's up to them what their priorities are but once again people think that the person making the map who is a level editor or the web developer doing the leader boards can do flight model psychics coding. Let me know when you can find a car driver who can do the job of a physicist or a mathematician.

If you make a car driver do the work of a physicist you aren't managing your project properly.
Especially when you have zero fund or time restraints.

 

[Dante80]

During Kickstarter

FD

Founded in 1994

Engine : Their own (Cobra)

Games Shipped : 28

Team Size : Around 200

Had 2 Offices

Had Private Investors waiting to see the interest in Kickstarter

Had an experienced team in game making for nearly 2 decades

Had several years of skunk work prototyping done.

Had experience in their own Cobra engine in and out

CIG

Founded in 2011

Games Shipped : 0

Engine : Not theirs (Cryengine)

Team Size : 10 -15

Had 1 tiny apartment.

Had Private Investors lined to see the interest in Kickstarter

Had a team that was not experienced with Cryengine

Had a basic tech demo that was mainly done by outsourcers

Had some working together experience but old (Mostly Pre 2003)

--

Now

--

FD - Elite Dangerous

Game Stage : Beta

Team Size : 240 (June 2014)

Funding : 2,6 million dollars in Kickstar / Big unknown amount from Investors

Has 2 Offices

--

CIG - Star Citizen

Game Stage : Pre-Alpha

Team Size : 260+ (June 2014)

Funding : 49 million dollars

Has 3 Offices

Outsources to 5 companies

Just a quick correction here. FD now has about 70-100 people involved in ED, among many other projects in development or maintenance (and the KS started with about 15 people involved, ramping up only happened when the project got the green light after KS). The quote you provided was for the whole company, not the ED project man.

At this point of time, CIG has about three times the number of employers on their project than ED does (both in-house and under contract).