Proposal Discussion Kill Warrant Scanner Feedback

[-VR- Max Factor]

It's not about income. It is about reputation gain.

And, it's already been tested in beta.

Jumping to conclusions? Why was this thread started?

The jury is back, the verdict is guilty as charged, all that remains is the sentencing.

I don't think I understand the issue. You can still use the KWS and attack and cash in the bounty, it just may make you wanted in that system, so a trip to intersteller factors will be in order. But I believe you will still get the rep for that faction.

 

[raymondo the great]

I share your frustration.
Even when presented with a potential solution that preserves the existing NPC use case, and also brings the new Notoriety factor into play, we get a shrug, and 'limiting to the local system is cleaner' comment.

Ho hum, maybe the people supporting this change will change their tune when it's a piece of kit they actually use that is affected.

Oh well, the game goes on, FD do what they want, the players adapt and overcome.

First they came for the KWS, and I didn't speak up for I didn't use a KWS...

 

[DARGAN]

For me the KWS is pointless mainly as it has some issues mainly:
1) it takes too long to scan - why not link it into the original scan to see if someone is 'wanted' or not. This way we can actually do something rather than wait till we first scan them then do a KWS scan to see if they have loads of bounties.

with the engineer improvement .. quick scan, the KWS is faster than the original scan.

If the original scan could go as fast as the improved KWS, I would be happier or allow the KWS to replace the original scan, by including its function, yes.

I sometimes get bounty because the KWS has finished before the original scan with the new system maybe I would only be fined, i hope so.

 

[StiTch]

The logic presented indicates that you guys were thinking about KWS mainly as PVP module, where I don't think it's the case, as it was widely used for maximising profits for PVE as well.

I've changed my mind a little and come to accept the KWS changes a tad more because of this.

In the current live incarnation, the KWS is a mindless "extra change" accumulator; it has no real meaning. It doesn't change any rules of engagement, it doesn't have any real leverage on C&P. Ironically the only place it does seem to have is in PvP by justifying engaging with someone if you play a ruthless bounty hunter.

You could achieve the same thing a KWS does in live by increasing profits by a few per cent. Which there is no need to do.

I'm happy to see the KWS become something.

 

[CMDR _BigJay_]

I've changed my mind a little and come to accept the KWS changes a tad more because of this.

In the current live incarnation, the KWS is a mindless "extra change" accumulator; it has no real meaning. It doesn't change any rules of engagement, it doesn't have any real leverage on C&P. Ironically the only place it does seem to have is in PvP by justifying engaging with someone if you play a ruthless bounty hunter.

You could achieve the same thing a KWS does in live by increasing profits by a few per cent. Which there is no need to do.

I'm happy to see the KWS become something.

Is this willful ignorance? This whole thread people are going on and on about BGS manipulation and personal reputation that can be done with the old KWS. There's probably 30 posters in this thread that don't care about the credits at all, we only care about the ability to use the KWS as a tool for rep and influence.

The reason everyone kicked and screamed so much is because FD's original concept was taking away this functionality from the PvE/BGS guys in order to make the KWS into a tool for PvP bounty hunting.

The current solution makes the thing about 90% as useful as it was for PvE and ALSO makes it useful for PvP if people want to use it for that. I tend to think PvP players will not give up a utility slot for it, but I guess that remains to be seen.

 

[ArchEmperor]

Let the Kill Warrent Scanner launch an electronic bug on the target that allows system specific bounties and crimes be reported to you in a stream with better and better results depending on how long you track the target. You can track it through several jumps and to other systems to gain even more valid data until you find a bounty that fits your bill.
Tracking a target while in stealth mode would be awesome and cool immersive gameplay.

Tracking someone interesting can also lead to bigger fish with even bigger Bountys and deeper crime syndicates, allowing for complex evolving storylines for bountyhunters, pirates and private eyes. Yes, Pirates can use this tech as well, to gain info about the biggest hauls and the most worthy of prizes.

Watch out for ECM and solar flares, which can screw up your KWS bug.

The KWS system is a very underrated tool for immersive gameplay. It can be made into several parts with the problem of identification and verification as the core. Image analysis, wave analysis, pattern analysis, crime connection analysis and so on. All giving small "mini game" opportunities for the player.

What passengers does he carry. Did the wanted criminal switch ship? What does he look like? Can I get a photo of his face or symbols? Where the hell is he leading me... oh no! OH MY GOD!!! ABORT ABOOOORT!!!

 

[Dbrn47]

Hello Commander MadDogMurdock!



I understand that chasing fugitives across multiple systems and multiple governments is no longer an option for the Kill Warrant scanner. However This is something we will be looking to address in a future update, where we'd like to improve wake scanning and look at other modules, such as tracker limpets (No ETA, no guarantees, obviously).

Good sir, please don't mention cool sounding things and then tell us no ETAs or guarantees, you're turning orgasms into aneurysms with that.

 

[ilo]

Is this willful ignorance? This whole thread people are going on and on about BGS manipulation and personal reputation that can be done with the old KWS. There's probably 30 posters in this thread that don't care about the credits at all, we only care about the ability to use the KWS as a tool for rep and influence.

The reason everyone kicked and screamed so much is because FD's original concept was taking away this functionality from the PvE/BGS guys in order to make the KWS into a tool for PvP bounty hunting.

The current solution makes the thing about 90% as useful as it was for PvE and ALSO makes it useful for PvP if people want to use it for that. I tend to think PvP players will not give up a utility slot for it, but I guess that remains to be seen.

I don't give a damn about the BGS or reputation on the KWS.. For reputation there is a mission board as well as market, for bounties and credits as a bounty hunter there was the KWS.

 

[SciTrekker]

I don't give a damn about the BGS or reputation on the KWS.. For reputation there is a mission board as well as market, for bounties and credits as a bounty hunter there was the KWS.

You may not give a damn, but others do.

Mission Board needs to have missions available for the non-controlling MF to assist them. I hope that gets fixed because it's not always the case now (often see them limited to cordial rep required - or one above what I have with the MF).

Commodities market gives reputation with the controlling MF only. Concerns were about getting rep with non-controlling MF.

 

[Sylow]

I don't give a damn about the BGS or reputation on the KWS.. For reputation there is a mission board as well as market, for bounties and credits as a bounty hunter there was the KWS.

.
Hmm... but for actual bounty hunters, there's the mission board, which sends you off to kill pirate leaders, notorious terrorists and the likes. Might require to bring a FDS interdictor and a wake scanner, though. Player bounty hunters with that equipment on board seems to be about as frequent as PvP pirates with a cargo hold, though... i heard there is till one.
.
What's called "bounty hunting" here generally is some kind of policing work, and interestingly enough that's where the KWS matters.
.

 

[TeamGav]

---

 

[ilo]

You may not give a damn, but others do.

You might had noticed I'm not against one or another KWS version.. Was just stating that people might not necessarily agree with the 'reasons' of the change. I just find it -from the killed criminal player- confusing on what would I have to pay

 

[Jynessa Loraeyn]

It's not about income. It is about reputation gain.

And, it's already been tested in beta.

Jumping to conclusions? Why was this thread started?

The jury is back, the verdict is guilty as charged, all that remains is the sentencing.

Actually, several people have mentioned it's about income - but regarding rep, the difference will be that to gain rep with minor factions (or the superpower supporting them), you will need to use the KWS in the system they are in, which is not at all unreasonable to me... and the idea of tracking a bounty across other systems where they aren't wanted will be brought back by other methods, like tracking limpets. That actually sounds better to me. It's always bothered me that somehow a KWS has access to a galaxy wide perfectly-updated bounty database, because I'm pretty sure such a thing shouldn't exist in Elite. There is not really a central authority for anything - just competing ambitions vested in various powers, some in conflict with each other. Even Universal Cartographics want multiple confirmations of data from different commanders to maintain what is simply stellar body data - let alone a fast-moving constantly changing dataset like who is wanted where. Something like tracking limpets sounds more fine-grained, and requires you to pick your target and then lets you follow them... that sounds far more interesting and much more like actual bounty hunting. From a game perspective, it also seems better - and opens the door for actual persistent NPC antagonists. By deliberately (player choice and skill) firing and managing to attach a tracking limpet to a target, you are signalling to the game you want that target made persistent. All in game, using in universe tools, and the target can then be 'saved' to your profile as someone of interest. That sounds like it'll take a lot of work, but it also sounds like a good idea and a pretty good way to improve bounty hunting - currently the KWS just gives you a bunch of extra bounties from other systems and superpowers, which may give you extra rep with some other controlling minor factions in other systems as well as superpower rep you may not have gotten. That's... kind of simplistic. In the new system, you'll supposedly still get rep, just only with local minor factions and the superpower behind the minor faction running the system. The difference seems quite minor to me, especially if the overall plan is to implement other methods of tracking bounties across jurisdictions.

And yes, it was tested in beta... and then Frontier actually created this thread for feedback, and then has actually updated the proposed changes, and is asking for more feedback. So yes, I think you're jumping to conclusions by just throwing your hands in the air and saying it's all pointless. This isn't actually even in the game yet. I'm also not sure what you think the legal metaphor accomplishes - you might as well have just said, "I don't care, it doesn't matter what you say, I hate it", because that is exactly what you seem to be saying. That doesn't seem like particularly valuable feedback - it's not even an argument.

I do have actual concerns about the new system, if you'd read what I'd written fully - I'm not convinced any of the non-authority local factions actually issue bounties at the moment. I've been scanning Clean targets in the live game and haven't found a single one with a bounty somewhere else of any kind. Maybe that's to be expected, but it's already a bit worrying. I'm going to scan a bunch of Wanted targets in a RES and see if any bounties come up from local factions who are not the authority, and not from factions outside the system. Unfortunately, you have to kill the target to actually see who the extra bounty comes from... so it's not exactly quick to test for lots of targets.

It's no good the new KWS being theoretically capable of picking up bounties from local factions who are not the authority if those local factions do not issue bounties. The new system better have those bounties being generated, or the new KWS will do nothing more than a normal scan.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

• The KWS will detect all Interstellar bounties on a target vessel. However, it does not legitimise attack, so you still will have to break the law to collect them if the Interstellar bounty is for a different superpower than the current jurisdiction is alinged to.

Hello Sandro!

What about Interstellar Bounties on ships in non-aligned space? There are plenty of Independent Systems out there, not aligned with any given power, that are not Anarchy space.

My thoughts on this:

1. The operative portion of Crime and Punishment (C&P) is the Punishment. Now I do understand we don't want to Over-punish people, but there should still be some sting to the Punishment, or it becomes meaningless.

2. The Kill Warrant Scanner's intention is to catalog a pilot's offenses, wherever they might have been committed.

So, my thought is this - let the Kill Warrant Scanner detect whatever bounties a pilot might have, where ever they might have been issued.
Allow bounty hunters to collect these, as the nature of the Warrant is to paid when the target is brought to justice.
Since the new system of C&P makes the perpetrator pay these at rebuy, and burying someone under the sheer cost of their misdeeds might be too harsh, let's take this approach instead:

When a ship is KWS scanned and dispatched, only attach the value of bounties they pay for the system they are blown up in, and only a small percentage of the outstanding bounties for other systems.

For example:

Player A is wanted in 12 systems, 4 Federation systems, 6 Imperial Systems, 2 Independent Systems. They are KWS scanned in Sol and blasted to the nearest Detention Facility. Their rebuy would include their ship cost rebuy, plus the current bounty value percentage for Sol, 10% of the remaining Federation Systems, and 5% of the value of Imperial and Independent systems - or whatever the percentages actually work out to be. This way, the bounty hunter who brought justice to them is compensated for their efforts, Player A is punished, the Kill Warrant Scanner has justified its usage, and everybody makes out in the end.

Player A isn't over-penalized, as they're still paying for their misdeeds, they're just paying less for those systems where they were Wanted but not as much as for where they met their reckoning.

 

[Jynessa Loraeyn]

.
Hmm... but for actual bounty hunters, there's the mission board, which sends you off to kill pirate leaders, notorious terrorists and the likes. Might require to bring a FDS interdictor and a wake scanner, though. Player bounty hunters with that equipment on board seems to be about as frequent as PvP pirates with a cargo hold, though... i heard there is till one.
.
What's called "bounty hunting" here generally is some kind of policing work, and interestingly enough that's where the KWS matters.
.

I actually did two of those Assassination missions yesterday (Pirate Lord, so it's definitely hunting bounties). You don't really need a wake scanner, and the interdictor is very useful but also not absolutely required. The target is often findable by signal source, and on the second one, I saw the target in supercruise, dropped into the nav beacon just to make sure I had the target recon data (in case I lost him), and my target actually dropped in after me and attacked me. Which was pretty cool.

I didn't actually have a KWS equipped for them, since their bounties were around the 200,000 Cr mark and I was being paid about 2 million extra each for the missions from the factions who wanted them dead.

So yes - I agree that the KWS seems more suited for local law enforcement. Interstellar bounty hunting probably ought to start with some faction actually telling you they want someone dead, and then the game giving you the tools to track them, find them and kill them.

 

[CMDR_Havok]

Hello Commanders!

We’ve been going through the feedback for the Kill Warrant Scanner

Sandro, I think that your work on the KWS is mostly positive and in the right direction, but for me, as a bounty hunter (I actually rarely play anymore because bounty hunting is so awfull) the problem is largely one of actually tracking down a pirate target in the first place. Its the 'thrill of the chase' that ultimately make bounty hunting an exiting profession that people enjoy (potentially). But currently there are so little tools available to the BH player, that most of us just ended up hanging around CG's scanning ships coming and going, which was really rather dull and it just felt like seal clubbing. There was no pursuit involved, no trail of breadcrumbs to follow, and thus no 'thrill of the chase', that along with the fact that bounty rewards are tiny, just made it a really dull and unrewarding experience... When it could actually be so much more.

In the end under the current setup, I and others resorted to sending out friend invites to known pirates and using the friendship marker on the map as a kind of tracking device... But its not really a very good solution.

What I would suggest instead would be an in game database of highly notorious commanders, and the player should have the ability to select one or more players from this database as tagged targets, once tagged the 'bounty tracking module' would provide some information about their wearabouts, such as last reported crime scene, or last known station docked at as a trail to follow (but definately NOT give their exact current location). Both the database and the associated 'bounty tracking module' should require the player to become a registered member of the 'Bounty Hunters Guild', which in order to join should in itself require a small amount of effort akin to that required to join a faction or engage with an engineer.

I Can actually imagine a number of pirate players actively seeking to reach the top spot in the Galaxy's 'most notorious' list, but can you image just what a tough time they would then have dodging all of us bounty hunters that would be chasing the HUGE price that they would have on their heads... It would certainly make for some exiting gameplay.

Another level of engagement would be if missions could be generated randomly, Requesting for registered bounty hunters to go after certain highly notorious commanders and offering extra credits on top of the players bounty for a successful outcome.

At the end of the day, no matter how good you make KWS itself, it only really comes into play once you have tracked down a Pirate/criminal so in my opinion you need to get this bit right first.

 

[Funny]

Hello Commanders!

We've taken a step back and...

Overall, we're quite happy with this proposal, to the point of looking into making it happen, so feedback is greatly appreciated.

Yeah, this version seems more or less complete. There might be a few things not entirely right with it, but it should be 99.99% correct. The only question I have is what happens to empire/federstion/alliance bounties that are currently in live. Oher than that, this makes the kws behave in a way that makes a ton of sense and just be awesome agaij in general

 

[Alec Turner]

Yeah, this version seems more or less complete. There might be a few things not entirely right with it, but it should be 99.99% correct. The only question I have is what happens to empire/federstion/alliance bounties that are currently in live. Oher than that, this makes the kws behave in a way that makes a ton of sense and just be awesome agaij in general

I believe there's a one off amnesty next Tuesday and all bounties will be cleared.

 

[raymondo the great]

I believe there's a one off amnesty next Tuesday and all bounties will be cleared.

I was wondering what would happen to them...don't have any ATM but a while back I had millions and if they had transferred to the new system...ouch!

Do we know what happens with legacy fines come Tuesday btw Do they get wiped too? I've only got 10+ million.....

 

[SciTrekker]

You might had noticed I'm not against one or another KWS version.. Was just stating that people might not necessarily agree with the 'reasons' of the change. I just find it -from the killed criminal player- confusing on what would I have to pay

I was responding to your post rather than you specifically.
Your post seemed to imply that other means for getting rep with non-controlling MFs are available.
My experience thus far hasn't been so lucky.

I do agree that this new C&P system is rather confusing.
I'd read of some bugs during the beta testing causing players to receive rather large bounties for minimal crimes.
I may have missed any follow up that they were confirmed as bugs, or if it was confirmed to be intentional.
Looks like I could become a criminal player whether I want to or not.