Why are we being robbed of grade 5 in the engineering conversion for no reason?

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

Except...I'm neither playing at this point, nor buying stuff. Because neither the game (what there is of it) or the design direction, deserve Support.

And yet you feel it is worth your time to post in the forums for a game that you don't like and that you've publicaly declared that you are not and will not be playing.

Given your declarations, who here are you trying to convince of what, and for what purpose?

Aside from just being a spiteful troll, I'm struggling to find a logical motivation here.

 

[Devari]

And your point is?

My point should be quite obvious. FD went from the stated goal of making the Engineering process "better" with 3.0 to devaluing 2 years of Engineering grind instead.

They decided it needed doing, so they are doing it.

No, they suddenly "decided" that it was easier to inflate the blueprints by 15% in the middle of a 2-week beta and intentionally devalue everyone's prior work in the process instead of making the gameplay better. Their show of getting "feedback" for how to improve Engineers amounted to nothing because they concluded that inflating the blueprints to ridiculous levels and expecting everyone to do more of the same grind was easier than making actual gameplay improvements.

I used to have a certain amount of sympathy with folks that bought in to "the grind and the meta" even though it isn't my play style and they had to have known what they were setting themselves up for. But they've gone from making actual cogent arguments all the way down to being rattle-tossing whiny babies.

This is the point where I can't take your comments seriously. You clearly have no idea how much effort some players have put into the game over the past 2 years. Characterising players who express legitimate concerns as "rattle-tossing whiny babies" isn't even a coherent concept, it's just an insult that is meant to distract from the actual issue. It doesn't acknowledge the work those players have put into the game at all. Ridiculing players who choose to put actual effort into the game isn't an answer to any of the issues in this thread.

The entire point of 3.0 was to improve the existing gameplay. Not devalue work that players have already done and not to recycle and repeat a grind that players have already done. The goal was to improve the gameplay for everyone, not to throw existing players and 2 years of work under the bus without adding ANY new content or gameplay in the process.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

My point should be quite obvious. FD went from the stated goal of making the Engineering process "better" with 3.0 to devaluing 2 years of Engineering grind instead.



No, they suddenly "decided" that it was easier to inflate the blueprints by 15% in the middle of a 2-week beta and intentionally devalue everyone's prior work in the process instead of making the gameplay better. Their show of getting "feedback" for how to improve Engineers amounted to nothing because they concluded that inflating the blueprints to ridiculous levels and expecting everyone to do more of the same grind was easier than making actual gameplay improvements.



This is the point where I can't take your comments seriously. You clearly have no idea how much effort some players have put into the game over the past 2 years. Characterising players who express legitimate concerns as "rattle-tossing whiny babies" isn't even a coherent concept, it's just an insult that is meant to distract from the actual issue. It doesn't acknowledge the work those players have put into the game at all. Ridiculing players who choose to put actual effort into the game isn't an answer to any of the issues in this thread.

The entire point of 3.0 was to improve the existing gameplay. Not devalue work that players have already done and not to recycle and repeat a grind that players have already done. The goal was to improve the gameplay for everyone, not to throw existing players and 2 years of work under the bus without adding ANY new content or gameplay in the process.

Don't let the facts trip you up on the way out.

 

[LeoBartlet]

1 December 2017:



https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...UTURE?p=6177830&highlight=modules#post6177830

So, that says:

• New blueprints will have higher maximum values than old ones
• Old modules will be grandfathered (which by definition means their stats cannot possibly be as high as a maxed-out new mod because new mods have higher maximum values than old mods)
• If old mods are converted they will become a grade lower in the new system (which by definition means their stats cannot possibly be as high as a maxed-out new mod because new mods have higher maximum values than old mods and you've dropped a grade)

That's exactly what we've got. I actually said at the time (and I wasn't alone) that whatever we ended up with, it wouldn't stray far from Sandy's initial vision as laid out in that thread.

The first 3.0 beta wasn't released until 25 January 2018, so roughly two months after that post.

The issue of whether players should or shouldn't have to do any more engineering is opinion and you're as entitled to yours as I am to mine.

However suggesting this was some bolt from the blue is just wrong. It is blatantly obvious from Sandy's comment in December that the plan at that time would require further engineering to remain at the top of the pile because there are only three options in it for players with existing grade 5 mods. One is convert them, which mean they need more engineering because all conversions drop you a grade. One is keep your mods as they are, no engineering needed but they can't possibly be as good as a maxed-out new mod. The third is make new modules from scratch, which needs engineering. There was never an option included in his suggestion that would not have required more engineering and that did not change.

Of course if you really did put me on ignore you won't be able to see that.

It's almost as if the one person who lacks and understanding of the changes is Devari.

Mind you everyone here that doesnt agree with him are trolls so that cant possibly be true.

 

[Devari]

It's almost as if the one person who lacks and understanding of the changes is Devari.

Mind you everyone here that doesnt agree with him are trolls so that cant possibly be true.

New blueprints being slightly higher than current values is not 10-15% higher. There was no mention of such a massive disparity and a new grind being involved, they were only supposed to be slightly higher on average.

If you actually watched the dev video shortly prior to the 3.0 beta Sandro also stated there would be existing mods that players would want to keep. This was the case only with 3.0 beta 1 but was completely untrue with the massive 10-15% differences seen with beta 2.

You need to actually read all of the information available and listen to what the devs actually stated in their presentations. Not just selectively reading parts of their statements. Pretending that the nonsense we got with 3.0 beta 2 values was somehow "planned" is not true at all. It was obviously a sudden decision that FD made between beta 1 and beta 2 with zero acknowledgement for the impact on game balance and the devaluing of prior Engineering grind.

Or is it too hard to look at all of the facts? Does that get in the way of your selective reading and ignoring all of the information FD gave us at different points prior to and during the actual 3.0 beta?

 

[Mohrgan]

New blueprints being slightly higher than current values is not 10-15% higher. There was no mention of such a massive disparity and a new grind being involved, they were only supposed to be slightly higher on average.

If you actually watched the dev video shortly prior to the 3.0 beta Sandro also stated there would be existing mods that players would want to keep. This was the case only with 3.0 beta 1 but was completely untrue with the massive 10-15% differences seen with beta 2.

You need to actually read all of the information available and listen to what the devs actually stated in their presentations. Not just selectively reading parts of their statements. Pretending that the nonsense we got with 3.0 beta 2 values was somehow "planned" when it was obviously a sudden decision that FD made between beta 1 and beta 2 is just not true.

Or is it too hard to look at all of the facts? Does that get in the way of your selective reading and distorting the actual information FD gave us at different points prior to and during the actual 3.0 beta?

Can you demonstrate an example of this 10-15% increase you mentioned? I've understood the intended increase to be on the order of 5%. Having an example of the higher values might be edifying.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Can you demonstrate an example of this 10-15% increase you mentioned? I've understood the intended increase to be on the order of 5%. Having an example of the higher values might be edifying.

The increase from Beta 1 to Beta 2 is a giant red herring.
That happened because players clearly demonstrated that existing modules were better than anything possible in the new system.

No smoking gun here.

 

[DaveB]

You clearly have no idea how much effort some players have put into the game over the past 2 years.

Been playing at least as long as anyone else and have enough of an idea to know not to bind my enjoyment of the game to grinding for the shinies, buddy. Never did, never will, and I'll likely still be enjoying it long after they stop mounting HOTAS rigs on perambulators.

Characterising players who express legitimate concerns as "rattle-tossing whiny babies" isn't even a coherent concept, it's just an insult that is meant to distract from the actual issue. It doesn't acknowledge the work those players have put into the game at all. Ridiculing players who choose to put actual effort into the game isn't an answer to any of the issues in this thread.

1: If you don't want to be characterized that way, put down the hyperbole and fire up your intellect. Most of us will listen with respect if you do.
2: Yes, these players put a lot of work in. So have I and so what? I'm not the one pitching a snit at every rebalance pass or claiming that the game is ruined and internet-flouncing like anybody cares whether I continue to play or not. As it happens, my way still works and is still fun so I won't be going anywhere any time soon. If it stops being that way you'll never know because I'll just stop, and won't be coming here to tell everybody about it.
3: When you bare your bum like a baboon, expect it to take on a nice rosy-pink hue from it getting slapped. Sometimes ridicule is not only justified but entirely proper.

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

Been playing at least as long as anyone else and have enough of an idea to know not to bind my enjoyment of the game to grinding for the shinies, buddy. Never did, never will, and I'll likely still be enjoying it long after they stop mounting HOTAS rigs on perambulators.



1: If you don't want to be characterized that way, put down the hyperbole and fire up your intellect. Most of us will listen with respect if you do.
2: Yes, these players put a lot of work in. So have I and so what? I'm not the one pitching a snit at every rebalance pass or claiming that the game is ruined and internet-flouncing like anybody cares whether I continue to play or not. As it happens, my way still works and is still fun so I won't be going anywhere any time soon. If it stops being that way you'll never know because I'll just stop, and won't be coming here to tell everybody about it.
3: When you bare your bum like a baboon, expect it to take on a nice rosy-pink hue from it getting slapped. Sometimes ridicule is not only justified but entirely proper.

Time out!

What is a snit and how does one pitch it? I've not heard that one before but need to know what I'm actually saying before I dare use it..


Carry on!

 

[DaveB]

Time out!

What is a snit and how does one pitch it? I've not heard that one before but need to know what I'm actually saying before I dare use it..


Carry on!

I had no idea either until my wife crocheted one for the kids to throw.

 

[Devari]

Been playing at least as long as anyone else and have enough of an idea to know not to bind my enjoyment of the game to grinding for the shinies

So because you don't personally set long-term, grind-based goals in the game, then anyone else who does this is playing the game "wrong"?

I think I see the problem here.

1: If you don't want to be characterized that way, put down the hyperbole and fire up your intellect. Most of us will listen with respect if you do.

Sorry, but when your "contribution" to the thread is limited to dismissing a legitimate concern you've already lost any credibility in referring to "respect".

You clearly have no respect for anyone who plays the game differently than you do and your repeated attempts to resort to deflection, denial and ridicule demonstrate that quite well.

Since your behavior is unlikely to change it appears that I have yet another person to add to my ignore list.

 

[DaveB]

So because you don't personally set long-term, grind-based goals in the game, then anyone else who does this is playing the game "wrong"?

I think I see the problem here.



Sorry, but when your "contribution" to the thread is limited to dismissing a legitimate concern you've already lost any credibility in referring to "respect".

You clearly have no respect for anyone who plays the game differently than you do and your repeated attempts to resort to deflection, denial and ridicule demonstrate that quite well.

Since your behavior is unlikely to change it appears that I have yet another person to add to my ignore list.

Awww, what a shame. Long term goals? Got 'em. Have already achieved a few. Added some extra ones to the list to prevent life getting boring. Grind-based? Well, you got me there. No, I don't grind. I just play. Never said anyone else was playing "wrong" though, just that if you're going to grind and that's going to be your primary "thing" you'd better be prepared to have at least some of the stuff you were grinding FOR crapped on, because it happens in every game and believing it wouldn't happen here is delusional at best. Heck, even though I don't grind it happened to me with the Python-nerf.

As for "respect" this episode is a departure for you, you're normally one of the posters I read with interest. However, since you're ignoring me please accept my counterplonk. I will miss your saner postings.

 

[MottiKhan]

Awww, what a shame. Long term goals? Got 'em. Have already achieved a few. Added some extra ones to the list to prevent life getting boring. Grind-based? Well, you got me there. No, I don't grind. I just play. Never said anyone else was playing "wrong" though, just that if you're going to grind and that's going to be your primary "thing" you'd better be prepared to have at least some of the stuff you were grinding FOR crapped on, because it happens in every game and believing it wouldn't happen here is delusional at best. Heck, even though I don't grind it happened to me with the Python-nerf.

As for "respect" this episode is a departure for you, you're normally one of the posters I read with interest. However, since you're ignoring me please accept my counterplonk. I will miss your saner postings.

You shouldn't block him. He can be a source of entertainment, if nothing else.

Can you see how he once again hijacked someone else's thread? Notice the pattern? It's kinda funny if you think about it.

 

[Surprised Brony]

You shouldn't block him. He can be a source of entertainment, if nothing else.

Can you see how he once again hijacked someone else's thread? Notice the pattern? It's kinda funny if you think about it.

Can't rep but fully intend to ASAP.

EDIT: Done.

 

[ADAMtheWELSHMANz]

Wow, just read this entire topic on a particularly long train ride and some people really do have the old blinkers on don't they. I've seen horses on merry-go-rounds go in less circles than this discussion.

Fully appreciate the entertainment though and thanks to all contributors.

I'm taking away from this that in life anyone who disagrees with me is henceforth getting ignored, allowing me to continue happily along in my own little bubble surrounded by "yes" men.

Stay safe out there Cmdrs, because whatever your thoughts on it we'll all be in the same boat come next week o7

 

[Red Anders]

New blueprints being slightly higher than current values is not 10-15% higher. There was no mention of such a massive disparity and a new grind being involved, they were only supposed to be slightly higher on average.

If you actually watched the dev video shortly prior to the 3.0 beta Sandro also stated there would be existing mods that players would want to keep. This was the case only with 3.0 beta 1 but was completely untrue with the massive 10-15% differences seen with beta 2.

You need to actually read all of the information available and listen to what the devs actually stated in their presentations. Not just selectively reading parts of their statements. Pretending that the nonsense we got with 3.0 beta 2 values was somehow "planned" is not true at all. It was obviously a sudden decision that FD made between beta 1 and beta 2 with zero acknowledgement for the impact on game balance and the devaluing of prior Engineering grind.

Or is it too hard to look at all of the facts? Does that get in the way of your selective reading and ignoring all of the information FD gave us at different points prior to and during the actual 3.0 beta?

Oh I'm so sorry. I need to actually read all the information and listen to things as well do I? Wow that obviously sounds like it will be much too difficult for my feeble wits, only the enlightened ones such as yourself could possibly be capable of such a feat.

With hindsight I have no idea why I wasted any more of my time on this. Your ego must have its own postcode. You've managed to write some of the most condescending tripe I have ever read in this thread. The fact that you then go on about selective reading is the icing on the cake really because you seem to be a master at it, as well as deploying strawmen.

Does Sandy's post say that mods in 3.0 will have higher values than in 2.4? (Clue - possible answers to this question are 'yes' and... err that's it really)

Did mods in 3.0 having higher values (ANY higher values at all) mean that you would need to do more engineering? (Clue - possible answers to this question are also 'yes' or 'yes'. Even if a mod has a value that's only 1% higher in 3.0 it would still have been IMPOSSIBLE for you to ever obtain a mod with those stats without doing some additional engineering under ANY iteration of these changes going right back to when Sandy first dreamed them up in the bath)

So does that mean that from the very first inception of the changes, the plan was that if you wanted your gear to be the best possible under the new system you would need to do more engineering? (Clue - it's the same answer as above)

Those are facts. The fact that the actual difference between 2.4 and 3.0 values may have undergone a step change during the beta does not IN ANY WAY change the FACT that you could not possibly have been in a situation after 3.0 where your gear was top-tier without doing some engineering. Not at any point since the very first musings.

For God's sake man it's not a difficult thing to grasp; your existing mods either stay as they are or become grade 4 converted mods, they were always going to do that and the new maximum was ALWAYS going to be GREATER than 2.4. Those are facts. The fact that you don't like them does not change that.

Since you like looking at facts here's one for you. It's probably the only one that matters. You're going to be doing some more engineering.

I'm done here, pity parties don't really do it for me.

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

I got all caught up in the back and forth and, well may have gotten carried away when I blocked everyone on the member list. In the spirit of not making any more rash decisions, I'm going to see how this plays out before I reverse anything...

 

[BurntJello]

This thread is about the unfair "conversion" of a G5 module to a much worse G4 module.

It is not relevant that 3.0 end results will be better.
It is not relevant how many rolls someone put into the current system.
(so many off topic posts)

It would be like FDev creating a new E-to-A system and to use the new system, you have to "convert" your "old A" module to a "new B" module (which is worse than your "old A" module), then grind some more to get something on par with what you started with. It doesn't matter if the new system gives better results after the grind is done. The problem is the forced downgrade before you can upgrade again. If you don't have enough stuff to upgrade, you are left worse off than you started. This is unfair to players.

A fair conversion would yield stats on par with what the current module has.

As it is (or will be), the only reason to convert a G5 module is so you can skip the G1-G4 grind. "Converting" serves NO other purpose.

 

[MottiKhan]

This thread is about the unfair "conversion" of a G5 module to a much worse G4 module.

It is not relevant that 3.0 end results will be better.
It is not relevant how many rolls someone put into the current system.
(so many off topic posts)

It would be like FDev creating a new E-to-A system and to use the new system, you have to "convert" your "old A" module to a "new B" module (which is worse than your "old A" module), then grind some more to get something on par with what you started with. It doesn't matter if the new system gives better results after the grind is done. The problem is the forced downgrade before you can upgrade again. If you don't have enough stuff to upgrade, you are left worse off than you started. This is unfair to players.

A fair conversion would yield stats on par with what the current module has.

As it is (or will be), the only reason to convert a G5 module is so you can skip the G1-G4 grind. "Converting" serves NO other purpose.

I have good news for you then. You can keep all of your current G5 modules and still use the new system.

Just buy a new module and engineer it. Once it becomes better than your old one, you can store the old one (on a ship if you're out of storage space), and keep it forever.

That way, you won't lose your time spent in grinding the old module. Everyone wins

You're welcome.

 

[Mohrgan]

I have good news for you then. You can keep all of your current G5 modules and still use the new system.

Just buy a new module and engineer it. Once it becomes better than your old one, you can store the old one (on a ship if you're out of storage space), and keep it forever.

That way, you won't lose your time spent in grinding the old module. Everyone wins

You're welcome.

So much win.

(I never thought I'd get to type that. Happy day.)