The Exploits Have Damaged Elite

[Muetdhiver]

Frankly I think I finally get what the fuss this is all about :

Some players enjoy playing various gameplay loops without having to face colossal grinds.
(In the sense of repeating the same trivial task a very large number of times for an extrinsic reward, here credits)
For them those gold rushes are a god send. Because instead of doing loop A that they don't like 734 times to access
to loop B (e.g. soloing a thargoid), they just do 1 or days of the gold rush and done. Time Tax to access content is gone.

For other that are more into the Euro Truck simulator style of gameplay and into slow increase of the success metric (credits)
it's an aberation. This type of players (IMO) like to be clever about making an extra credit and playing the trade game.
(Well, I do like to be clever about making an extra profit margin when trucking). Shortcutting the whole gameplay loop
feels not nice and gamebreaking in the sense of making the trading gameplay loop pointless.

Both sides are right. Being forced to play Euro Truck simulator for 100's of hours before being able to play you favorite Alien shooting game
is terrible. So is seeing people shortcutting the whole gameplay style you enjoy when you are a trucker.

How to fix it :

• Test the damn missions better. Monkey type inputs, and do every possible of tests of parameter combinations. There are softwares for this.
• Make gold rush gameplay a core part of elite gameplay and universe mechanics. Heck, have a litteral goldrush to some cold diamond asteroids arround a neutron star or what not. With missions for it, and exhaustile supply. Automate the process to generate them. Ensure that they pay more than the regular activites. Eg. +50%.
• Choose a reasonnable earning "cap"/"target" that players should achieve in ED. E.g. 1 rebuy / h (i.e. ~30-40M at top end). Balance activities and professions around this. No more piracy pays 1M/h but passengers will pay 100M/h.

If the gold rush becomes part of the game, and has reasonnable earning level (not too high, nor too low), truckers will get in. Players seeing credits as a gameplay enabler will get in. An the discussion will be over.

And yes, I bought a cutter chrome job once I figured out that the insane imperial rank grind was mostly painless now.

 

[ilo]

If the gold rush becomes part of the game, and has reasonnable earning level (not too high, nor too low), truckers will get in. Players seeing credits as a gameplay enabler will get in. An the discussion will be over.

People might complain that they can only play on weekends and the game is imbalanced.
Other people might complain that their ships can't jump here and there and 'this gold mine' should spawn in all systems instead.
There more types of gameplay than truckers and gold miners.
Muethiver, this time you oversimplified too much.

 

[babelfisch]

People might complain that they can only play on weekends and the game is imbalanced.
Other people might complain that their ships can't jump here and there and 'this gold mine' should spawn in all systems instead.
There more types of gameplay than truckers and gold miners.
Muethiver, this time you oversimplified too much.

I am going to oversimplify even more: There are people who enjoy cheating and people who don't.

 

[Qohen Leth]

If I wanted to play with cheats I'd take up cycling or athletics.

Shortcuts much?

======

Since other people's income has zero impact on one's experience of the game, I feel that this ever-resurfacing complaint is still devoid of justification.

 

[Muetdhiver]

I am going to oversimplify even more: There are people who enjoy cheating and people who don't.

I did mining and trucking in 1.0 toward the python. I enjoyed it.

I also enjoyed getting 1B credits from the passenger missions. It allowed be to buy a Thargoid fitted Anaconda, a pretty chieftain and a trade cutter.
I can say I would not have enjoyed Trucking/Bounty farming/Road to riches to 1B to get them, as my interest was not trucking but Thargoid combat and the new wing assassination missions.
I also wanted to engage in thargoid combat now. Not in 9 months when I'll get the credits for it. Call me a instant gratification kid if you want.

I do know that there are other types of players than "cheaters" and "hard workers"*. Sometime a simple model can make a good point
You can substitude truckers with any profession type players into the slow progression thing and edging an extra profit in.

Though, I still can't wrap my mind arround people enjoying Bounty turkey shooting with engineered Vette's in RES. But that's on me I guess

*or is it "clever gamers" and "masochists" ? Funny how label works when you go far from the middle ground.

 

[Vorxian]

I am going to oversimplify even more: There are people who enjoy cheating and people who don't.

It's not cheating when you're simply playing the game, though.

Cheating is more representative of manipulating the code somehow to gain an advantage.

Using your ship to trade items, or using your ship to blow stuff up isn't cheating. That is part of every day life in ED.

IF NPCs are excessively rewarding players doing every day activities, that is NOT on the player. That is the problem of whoever gave the NPC the nod to offer such incentives to work for them.

If I'm hauling biowaste, and I come across an NPC offering me 750,000 cr / unit. How is that cheating? I have broken no rules. I sell the cutter's inventory to the dude for 594m cr... he's happy, I'm happy... I see he's still in the market, so I make back out and haul in another load. It's about 11 minutes round trip, and after an hour I make 2.9bn credits from this guy.

I'm breaking no rules. I'm not abusing game mechanics, I'm interacting with an NPC well within the game rules, and, from my perspective it's perfectly plausible that this NPC is actually doing something very underhand with biowaste, and as such offering high compensation to keep me quiet. I'm not going to question it, I'm just a bulk courier. Why would I report to FDEV some underhanded activity by a criminal NPC? It'd be like reporting an NPC for griefing.

Nope.. It's not cheating, regardless of how folks wish to paint it.

 

[babelfisch]

It's not cheating when you're simply playing the game, though.

Cheating is more representative of manipulating the code somehow to gain an advantage.

That's how I used to see it as well, but the Elite community told me that combat logging is cheating because it's an exploit and using exploits is always cheating. It's not my logic but that's how it was explained to me.

BTW
Mode switching is definetely not intended gameplay.

 

[Vorxian]

That's how I used to see it as well, but the Elite community told me that combat logging is cheating because it's an exploit and using exploits is always cheating. It's not my logic but that's how it was explained to me.

BTW
Mode switching is definetely not intended gameplay.

I can't help to agree though hehe.

Mode switching is meh. It's a cheese of great magnitude, but, that's the way FDEV implemented it, alas there's nothing in the EULA to say that users aren't allowed to log off, or back on again. A great ball of Edam for sure.

Combat logging though, I have had my account banned from the forum talking about this.. so mods please go easy on this, i'm just staying on topic (I PROMISE!!!)... Combat logging isn't really gameplay. It involves some level of external manipulation. Logging out via menu is well within the game, but, when FDEV designed and tuned combat, I bet they didn't think that pulling a cable gave the pilot access to a classified quantum phase shift drive, that transitions the ship to an out of phase state, thus to the attacker simply vanishes. I get why FDEV earmarked it as exploitation... even though the idea of a quantum phase shift drive is pretty cool !

BUT back on the road, shooting stuff and getting a reward isn't cheating. I'd stand up in court and argue that without a supporting solicitor

 

[Muetdhiver]

Mode switching is a godsend for BGS play.

Think of it what you will, but we use it consistantly and we would have gone mad without it.
Finding enough mining missions for a mining Cutter hold : Impossible without it.

 

[Oss133]

Imagine that the game had been perfectly balanced from day 1 and that no exploits or cheats had ever been possible. Would you now be the highest player on the "leaderboard" or would you, like me, still be much lower down thanks to the other players having way more free time and / or talent?

Once you have answered that question, then you can debate the reality of exploits, cheats and even Pay-to-Win.

For me it is a complete irrelevance who ""wins" or how as I am not in the race to begin with.

 

[Random Chaos]

I never used any of the "exploits" until the skimmer grind. I ran passenger missions when the payouts were high, but not to edge cases like Smeaton. I did a lot of 150k LS runs that would let me earn about 28-35 million with a loaded Beluga, and lots of data courier missions stacked on top, and I could do maybe two of those fully-stacked runs in an hour if I ran at a frantic pace. I'd usually do two of those runs when I got home from work, and then go do something else.

I did my homework, picked a good system that acted as a transport hub to 4 others with medium-haul runs like that, and my version of board flipping was spending a couple minutes flying to the other large-sized landing pads in the same system in order to stack missions. I made a fortune (my first billion, and then some) aboveboard, playing the game fairly, abusing nothing, and then because of nothing I did, my in-game livelihood got nerfed into the ground. The same route now only pays half as much. It's no longer worth the time or dodging a half-dozen interdictions. I can now make more, with far less effort, with a cargo Python.

How much guilt did I feel when air-striking skimmers into the ground, after that? Zero.

 

[babelfisch]

I can't help to agree though hehe.

Mode switching is meh. It's a cheese of great magnitude, but, that's the way FDEV implemented it, alas there's nothing in the EULA to say that users aren't allowed to log off, or back on again. A great ball of Edam for sure.

Combat logging though, I have had my account banned from the forum talking about this.. so mods please go easy on this, i'm just staying on topic (I PROMISE!!!)... Combat logging isn't really gameplay. It involves some level of external manipulation. Logging out via menu is well within the game, but, when FDEV designed and tuned combat, I bet they didn't think that pulling a cable gave the pilot access to a classified quantum phase shift drive, that transitions the ship to an out of phase state, thus to the attacker simply vanishes. I get why FDEV earmarked it as exploitation... even though the idea of a quantum phase shift drive is pretty cool !

BUT back on the road, shooting stuff and getting a reward isn't cheating. I'd stand up in court and argue that without a supporting solicitor

Something doesn't need to be in the EULA in order to be an exploit. An exploit is gaining an advantage by using a mechanic or feature in a way that wasn't intended by the devs. FDEV never intended that we relog to the main menu for hours to gather missions, otherwise they would've said so in the manual. Everyone who says something else is clearly an idiot. Don't even try to argue about it. Logging to the main menu is not intended gameplay. Using mining mission rewards to fulfill mining missions is also not intended gameplay. The intended gameplay is that you go to the next RES and mine some ressources. Again, if someone says something else he is clearly an idiot and shouldn't be talked to. Can we agree on that?

 

[sollisb]

That's how I used to see it as well, but the Elite community told me that combat logging is cheating because it's an exploit and using exploits is always cheating. It's not my logic but that's how it was explained to me.

BTW
Mode switching is definetely not intended gameplay.

neither is display a board of 0 missions. But thats what they do. So to get by that we reroll the boards.

if someone is expecting me to sit on my bottom waiting for 20 minutes, they're delusional!

 

[babelfisch]

neither is display a board of 0 missions. But thats what they do. So to get by that we reroll the boards.

if someone is expecting me to sit on my bottom waiting for 20 minutes, they're delusional!

When I see a mission board with 0 missions (which almost never happens) I leave and visit a station in a different system.

 

[JaskoMaughann]

The 2 major problems as I see them are:

1. There is too much money available early in the game.

2. There is not enough money to sustain the late game.

My solution would be:-
1. Have the same board per station across all modes to end board flipping.

2. Institute strict rank and reputation restrictions on missions to prevent gold rushing.

3. Improve pay scaling based on required rank per mission to reflect the increased cost of living in the later game.

Probably heard all those before but its my honest feeling.

 

[babelfisch]

The 2 major problems as I see them are:

1. There is too much money available early in the game.

2. There is not enough money to sustain the late game.

My solution would be:-
1. Have the same board per station across all modes to end board flipping.

2. Institute strict rank and reputation restrictions on missions to prevent gold rushing.

3. Improve pay scaling based on required rank per mission to reflect the increased cost of living in the later game.

Probably heard all those before but its my honest feeling.

I think module prices could also be rebalanced. It's strange when modules cost more than the entire ship.

 

[OnTheMinute]

See, this is why FDev need to sort something out.

Volynov wasn't an "exploit" or "cheating" (although you could have used dubious practices to maximise profit). It was simply a convergence of factors which led to a unique opportunity.

It was, basically, no more an "exploit" than participating in a CG would be.

Sometimes you'll get CGs that want you to haul Water or Scrap and you'll earn Cr50 per tonne, plus a reward at the end.
Sometimes, however, you'll get a CG that wants you to haul Platinum or Palladium and, in those cases, you can make a heap of credits regardless of the reward at the end.
You don't look at the 2nd type of CG and think "Well, it'd be cheating to take advantage of that!".

There's, basically, 2 things FDev can do about gold-rushes.
1) Eradicate the possibility of them occurring.
2) Officially sanction them.

If they attempt #1 there's a chance they'll never succeed, things will continue to "go wrong" and then they'll continually have to step in and sort it out manually (and usually clumsily), thus annoying the people who see them as an opportunity and the people who object to their existence.

If they go with #2 the galaxy will be a more interesting place, people will have opportunities to look forward to, nobody will have cause to be resentful of what others are doing and the only thing they'll need to sort out is a way to control the situation rather than prevent it completely.

Spot on!

 

[Kathryn Kando]

I've never done a gold rush or participated in an exploit. I know this makes me the biggest idiot in Elite: Dangerous, but until the most recent one, I haven't really cared.

o7, fellow idiot CMDR - now we are 2.

Remember: To each their own play style.When I read or watch something about these gold rushes, I do not care so much, as using them is just spoiling the fun the game has to offer. In the end I do not play with other players who use them, so why should I care about what makes them happy (for a very short time).

In times where even Obsidean Ant is catering to the vocal „too-much-grind“ crowd, you need to be stronger. Every time I start up Elite, I am setting my own little goals and always find something new to do. When I am bored I stop playing. This is keeping me entertained enough since I became a kickstarter backer.

 

[John Xenir]

I'll be quick

The Exploits Have Damaged Elite

No, they haven't
Gold-rushes were a thing since day 1. Ever since then, people who made billions from it were - quoting Frontier directly - "subset of a subset of player base".

So, multi-billionaires are a fact for a long time now, yet I can't see the Galaxy being toppled over. Economy doesn't seem to be a complete whack (EDIT: Well, at least not out of its usual whackiness). I can't see ridiculous inflation anywhere.
Ganking has been quickly balanced by massive migration into SOLO/PGs.

I see more people being a nuisance UA-bombing stations than billionaires sitting in their SOLO stations, affecting BGS and prices using their vast amounts of credits.
Which, let's be honest, is nonsensical given semi-persistent price fluctuations that players have very little influence over.

In other words: is there evidence of exploiters actually damaging anything inside the game?
I can't recall such thing, what I do recall is a lot of pondering of what one could maybe possibly theoretically do with such wealth to affect BGS. And not one ounce of evidence of such thing actually happening.

Also, to further strengthen my point: even the BGS sub-forum, describing all the BGS mechanics, influence-changing tactics etc., doesn't mention credits in any of their posts as a viable means of influencing BGS. Saying "but with bigger ship you can have bigger impact on BGS" is really stretching it thin, cause anyone with big ship - regardless of how quickly obtained - can influence BGS with the same impact.

 

[Cosmos]

I'll be quick

The Exploits Have Damaged Elite

No, they haven't
Gold-rushes were a thing since day 1. Ever since then, people who made billions from it were - quoting Frontier directly - "subset of a subset of player base".

So, multi-billionaires are a fact for a long time now, yet I can't see the Galaxy being toppled over. Economy doesn't seem to be a complete whack. I can't see ridiculous inflation anywhere.
Ganking has been quickly balanced by massive migration into SOLO/PGs.

I see more people being a nuisance UA-bombing stations than billionaires sitting in their SOLO stations, affecting BGS and prices using their vast amounts of credits.
Which, let's be honest, is nonsensical given semi-persistent price fluctuations that players have very little influence over.

In other words: is there evidence of exploiters actually damaging anything inside the game?
I can't recall such thing, what I do recall is a lot of pondering of what one could maybe possibly theoretically do with such wealth to affect BGS. And not one ounce of evidence of such thing actually happening.

Also, to further strengthen my point: even the BGS sub-forum, describing all the BGS mechanics, influence-changing tactics etc., doesn't mention credits in any of their posts as a viable means of influencing BGS. Saying "but with bigger ship you can have bigger impact on BGS" is really stretching it thin, cause anyone with big ship - regardless of how quickly obtained - can influence BGS with the same impact.

These aren't 'gold rushes' they are exploits.

The 'economy' and BGS are heavily scripted. There is no inflation because resources are infinite and the economy is a joke. Its all Frontier hand wavium.

As an example Tam Tah, a simple 'engineer' located in an backwater turns out to be one of the richest people in the entire Universe given the payouts he has made.

The background 'simulation' is but a series of states triggered by various variables which the players can influence. It is impossible to crash an economy because after a certain time it just resets to a default value. Not that anyone needs bother with trading anymore since credits can be made in the billions by exploiting..