Obsidian Ant NEW VIDEO - Crime and Punishment is Flawed

[vidslo]

But that's subjective evaluation really - your opinion is valuable as ours. We just mere point out that such opinion exists. Maybe too passionately and I am trying to walk away from too heated debates.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not stating that anyone's opinion is invalid. I'm simply pointing out that most people who have been stating that things are fine with C&P don't seem to have experienced the downsides of it. I've only had to pay off a bounty once at an IF. But these new rules, notoriety, current actions that generate a bounty, etc have all added up to me not accepting missions anymore due to the additional steps now. Planetary scan missions are a prime example of this.

At the end of the day (and in my opinion), when C&P was first being talked about, I was under the impression that the intent was to mainly prevent ganking/seal-clubbing, but with what we have now just seems to add even more risk to crime, with no additional reward, across the board. As a result, any 'illegal' missions I come across are even more likely to be skipped by me because I simply don't want the hassle.

 

[Parmo]

The Crime and Punishment system is delivering injustice.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

The value being 200 or 10,000 is irrelevant to the reason most people complain.

I love how this thread is full of people who state they have never had a problem with C&P and conclude that no problem exists.

That's because a lot of us have never had a problem with C&P, and believe that no problem exists.

Yes, a bounty is a bounty, and if you have one, then you need to be ready to accept the consequences.
The problem being that with the current system, you get a bounty for trespassing just like a bounty for murder...

You ought not to be trespassing in red zones then. Trespass should continue to be a kill warrant bounty.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

It is not uncommon in Elite to have "no way out". For example, since the beginning we are able to get stuck with an empty fuel tank and no scoop or scoopable star because of bad equipment/route planning. Yes there are the Fuel Rats but they are nice guys and not an in-game mechanic (the limpets are). When you think longer you may find other examples where suicide is the only option. I think you put too much weight on this being a bad design decision. It is mostly a bad decision from the Player. You know Dangerous Galaxy and so on...

Checkmate.

 

[vidslo]

That's because a lot of us have never had a problem with C&P, and believe that no problem exists.

Thanks for proving my point.

Much like I've never been arrested (in real life), so any police brutality must not exist or be a problem (in real life). /s

Editing to add: in the analogy above, the message that the "everything is fine as-is" crowd is saying is equivalent to "well don't get arrested". It's ignoring/dismissing issues that other people are seeing in game.

I just hope that Frontier will be reasonable and take all comments into consideration from the entire community rather than a small subset of it that deems no problems exist.

 

[Andovar]

You ought not to be trespassing in red zones then. Trespass should continue to be a kill warrant bounty.

And I'm not. I'm now skipping that portion of gameplay because it has become a nuisance.
But again, why? Why should trespassing be a kill bounty? It just doesn't make sense. Again, C&P has become a nuisance more than anything else.

 

[Geraldine]

An old forum ghost speaks...

I know this new C&P system is a major hindrance to doing just simple planetary scanning missions for data points, the only illegal thing I've done recently. There is no way to get near a beacon without seeing off a trespass warning, no matter how careful the approach. Stick around and do the scan then you got a bounty you cant simply wait out or even pay off in the system you are in like before. Nope, you gotta hunt down a system with a factor to "clean" your ship, totally breaking up the gameplay. Basically then, why bother doing these missions if they are so troublesome? And that is only one example. FD have taken this too far in my view. Sure, there should rightly be consequences to illegal acts but do they have to be so....so annoying?

I understand that for folk going around killing other players indiscriminately something had to be done, but folks this isn't it. They should scale this back just to cover PvP illegal kills and nothing else. Use the old system as it was for PvE is my suggestion, that wasn't perfect either by any means but it was a heck of a lot better than this.

We all know this is targeted squarely at griefing play styles but, and I stress this, it shouldn't cover piracy either if it's done properly, as in, the pirate does not destroy the ship he or she is after, this also applies to "friendly fire" situations, a small fine, sure, but all this factor nonsense over an accident? I think not!

The full weight of the C&P should only happen when it involves a player death and only when a player is attacked who is innocent of any wrong doing themselves. Consensual PvP, like a flag or something players could activate in their settings, should also be free of this too to allow folk who enjoy good PvP fight with like minded individuals to still have fun. Y'see, fun, that's the key folks, the game has to be fun. Applying the C&P scatter gun fashion like this in the game is just killing the fun out of it in my view.

Sort it FD, before it's too late. Hear this old forum ghost.....

 

[Deleted member 115407]

I understand that for folk going around killing other players indiscriminately something had to be done, but folks this isn't it. They should scale this back just to cover PvP illegal kills and nothing else. Use the old system as it was for PvE is my suggestion...

Hell no, you people aren't special. You live in the same game world that everyone else does.

Stop being lazy and go find an IF. If you want to do it the smart way, spend five minutes planning ahead.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I have to say FD is at fault here. Dissemination of game rules to the players is lousy. FD needs to communicate clearly the C&P system, and update the document every time it gets a tweak, 'cause the patch notes are not an acceptable way to communicate this, and the 600K pieces of info over 20K posts in a forum doesn't work either.
There are employees dedicated to marketing, social media, whatever, and not one official A-Z document for this new rule set.
It's nuts.

It's Frontier's corporate culture. We wrote it you should understand it.

Except, it was in Aramaic...or machine level code.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

Hell no, you people aren't special. You live in the same game world that everyone else does.

Stop being lazy and go find an IF. If you were smart you'd spend ten minutes planning ahead.

It's nothing to do with "being smart". If the game was able to reward intelligent behavior, then there would be a way to infiltrate the bases using skill, knowledge and intellect without getting detected. That would be a true test of player ability. If you get caught, then you are in trouble. If you succeed, then you achieve your goal! That's a true gameplay loop.

Planning ahead to find an Interstellar Factor is not a test of skill.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Thanks for proving my point.

Much like I've never been arrested (in real life), so any police brutality must not exist or be a problem (in real life). /s

Editing to add: in the analogy above, the message that the "everything is fine as-is" crowd is saying is equivalent to "well don't get arrested". It's ignoring/dismissing issues that other people are seeing in game.

I just hope that Frontier will be reasonable and take all comments into consideration from the entire community rather than a small subset of it that deems no problems exist.

It hasn't been a problem for me because I've put the tiniest amount of forethought into how I play the game. I've certainly incured some bounties and fines, but because I didn't do so blindly I was always prepared to deal with them, or not, depending on how I chose to play the specific ship.

It's nothing to do with "being smart". If the game was able to reward intelligent behavior, then there would be a way to infiltrate the bases using skill, knowledge and intellect without getting detected. That would be a true test of player ability. If you get caught, then you are in trouble. If you succeed, then you achieve your goal! That's a true gameplay loop.

Planning ahead to find an Interstellar Factor is not a test of skill.

I revised it, btw.

But you have to admit, it is smart to have a plan laid out, that way you don't get caught up in situations like not having the necessary jump range to manage your criminal status.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

I revised it, btw.

Yes, you make a fair point, but it doesn't address the problem Geraldine describes. Sure, we can plan ahead and find an Interstellar Factor - but that is hardly entertaining, interesting or rewarding. Getting into a base undetected meanwhile certainly would be.

Alas we are stuck with the mind-numbing option of "planning ahead" to find an Interstellar Factor, for missions that have a black and white criminal outcome that is not dependent upon player skill.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Hell no, you people aren't special. You live in the same game world that everyone else does.

Stop being lazy and go find an IF. If you want to do it the smart way, spend five minutes planning ahead.

You win a portrait picture on the wall of Pancho Barn's bar.

To understand the reference, watch the movie "The Right Stuff", or better yet, read the full Tom Wolfe book.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Yes, you make a fair point, but it doesn't address the problem Geraldine describes. Sure, we can plan ahead and find an Interstellar Factor - but that is hardly entertaining, interesting or rewarding. Getting into a base undetected meanwhile certainly would be.

Alas we are stuck with the mind-numbing option of "planning ahead" to find an Interstellar Factor, for missions that have a black and white criminal outcome that is not dependent upon player skill.

I disagree that opening the GalMap to find an appropriate Low or Anarchy jursidiction is "mind numbing". I'll bet if there were a 20M Cr exploit at the other end of that process no one would be complaining about it. As a matter of fact, they be all up on the forums like "It's only two jumps lolololol"

I don't disagree without about the bases. This game has been wanting for SRV infiltration mechanics for a long time.

 

[vidslo]

It hasn't been a problem for me because I've put the tiniest amount of forethought into how I play the game. I've certainly incured some bounties and fines, but because I didn't do so blindly I was always prepared to deal with them, or not, depending on how I chose to play the specific ship.

How's about you stop being so condescending in assuming that people are not putting the "tiniest" amount of thought into playing, being lazy, or any of your other insults. It paints a nice picture of the type of person you are.

I've only had to pay off one bounty, and found an IF close by, and took care of it. It was fairly easy, but it added an annoying additional step to the flow of gameplay.

You are allowed to have your opinion that you like C&P, but going around insulting players that disagree with you contributes nothing to the discussion.

We're not talking player skill here, we're talking elements that have been added to the game that only offer to further reduce the reasons to take illegal missions.

I don't know why Fdev would want to cause players to stop/reduce taking illegal missions, while making them still available. The new C&P doesn't add any excitement, or reward, to being a criminal, it only further adds more burden in doing so.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Yes, you make a fair point, but it doesn't address the problem Geraldine describes. Sure, we can plan ahead and find an Interstellar Factor - but that is hardly entertaining, interesting or rewarding. Getting into a base undetected meanwhile certainly would be.

Alas we are stuck with the mind-numbing option of "planning ahead" to find an Interstellar Factor, for missions that have a black and white criminal outcome that is not dependent upon player skill.

Then logically, it is not C&P which is at fault, but the still very basic mission system which really only has a handful of basic archetypes and hasn't really changed since release which is at fault. (They haven't really changed - they've had a facelift every now and then, perhaps even had some variations added, but really the basic mission archetypes have not changed one whit.)

So in actual fact - the problem you seem to be having isn't with C&P, but with the other gameplay mechanics such as mission archetypes, mission variability, missions which offer ways of completion by usage of skill and forethought, missions which require skill and forethought but which can also dynamically change in terms of outcomes based on ones actions within the current mission parameters.

I see a new video on the way.

 

[Valorin]

I'm all for depth, so long as it as intended and logical gameplay to support it. It's quite right that a player who underfits there ship should potentially find themselves in trouble. However it doesn't seem right, that punishment for this is a "side effect" and the only way out is "suicide".

Like you, I want to see added depth and consequence in the game, but it needs to be a bit better thought out than the current iteration. Impounding "stuck" ships would be a good option for example (and I am sure there are many more options). Makes logical sense, both in terms for in-world lore and in terms of gameplay loops.

I'm certainly not saying there shouldn't be consequences in the game, there actually needs to be a whole lot more of them. But they shouldn't be "side effects" of other mechanics.

Actually the only way out being "suicide" isn't quite right. First, you can get shot by a bounty hunter to respawn at a detention center (which might be "suicide" by proxy, but well) and there is the other option to get a player to fuel you up to make the jump to another system. If someone build a ship that's not even able to jump away, that's definitely on the player in my book. Like using a neutron star to jump to a system you can't get away from...

 

[Deleted member 115407]

How's about you stop being so condescending in assuming that people are not putting the "tiniest" amount of thought into playing, being lazy, or any of your other insults....

Because I can point you to numerous threads with people complaining about the new C&P, wherein they are being lazy, not planning ahead, and/or not putting the tiniest amount of thought into their gameplay.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

Then logically, it is not C&P which is at fault, but the still very basic mission system which really only has a handful of basic archetypes and hasn't really changed since release which is at fault. (They haven't really changed - they've had a facelift every now and then, perhaps even had some variations added, but really the basic mission archetypes have not changed one whit.)

So in actual fact - the problem you seem to be having isn't with C&P, but with the other gameplay mechanics such as mission archetypes, mission variability, missions which offer ways of completion by usage of skill and forethought, missions which require skill and forethought but which can also dynamically change in terms of outcomes based on ones actions within the current mission parameters.

I see a new video on the way.

Well we don't actually have any of that - so it's difficult to be critical of it.

But yes, it's good to see that you agree in principle that the new C&P system and the existing mission mechanics do not fit each other.

 

[[VR]tailgunner30uk]

I have some sympathy fir Obsidian Ant's friend and the situation that they find themselves in. My sympathy is though, somewhat tempered as, in part they brought this upon themselves. The same outcome would occur if the station were UA bombed or entered lockdown. Although these might be temporary, the player would find themselves equally handicapped in their choices. If you choose to go bounty hunting or engage in other potentially illegal activities it is wise to ensure that you have the capability to reach a station where you can pay off the bounty when it is incurred..

Moving on to the crime and punishment system, I do not agree that it is particularly complicated. In fact, the problem in my opinion is that it is quite simple. The system rather, lacks subtlety and granularity. I feel that as others have pointed out, a bounty for friendly fire against an un-targeted ship is extreme. This needs to be looked at. Perhaps only issuing a fine for the offense unless it results directly in the destruction of the victim. Then a bounty could be issued. It might even encourage piracy as fixed weapons could be employed without the risk of a bounty, provided the pirate refrains from killing his victim. Repeated acts of piracy would increase notoriety as would any illegal act even though you could pay off the fines. I also feel that notoriety needs to have a sphere of influence rather than the current system where I.F. are unavailable anywhere if notoriety is not zero. So that as you increase in notoriety you will have to travel further in order to find an agent who will deal with you to pay off the bounty. But you should always be able to find an I. F. agent provided you have a ship with sufficient jump range to make the necessary jumps to the system where the agent resides.

May be in the future, to assist O.A.s friend and others similarly trapped, Frontier could implement a "Mobile I. F. agent" who, for the right price, would travel to your station and allow you to pay off the bounty. Perhaps a similar travel time and cost as summoning your (hot) ship from the equivalent system. That is to say if you committed the crime in a Vulture, and have a notoriety level that means an I. F. agent has to travel for 1 hour, from outside your bubble of notoriety then you would have to wait for an hour and pay 350,000 credits (a guess) for him to turn up.