3.0 Crime rules leads to marooning

In this case, YES!

It's not that the OP bought a stock ship with too low a FSD to get out of the system he was in, that would be a game mechanic's issue.
He deliberately removed the adequate FSD & replaced it with one that clearly wasn't up to the job.

To me that's not a game design fault, it's part of the C&P consequence that FD have quite rightly introduced. It's all on the OP, no one else to blame here!

This makes zero sense. It say that cmdrs may be stupid and therefore is needed change things ... but this is not how Elite work from start, this game 'rewards' bad cmdrs decisions with rebuy screen. And if you first cripple your ship and then go to action which can end with your illegal act, then 'reward' which you get should be appropriate. (I don't see need change C&P due OP complain) It's like (edit .. it is worse as) flying without insurance ...

ED does not hold your hand at all. This is very much a "trademark" of the Elite experience, the "root, hog, or die" approach. The fact that you can screw up badly enough to lose everything, no matter how many hours of grind, no matter how many displays of awesome skill it took you to get it. Ultimately there is absolutely no escape from the consequences of your decisions in-game, no going back to a previous save-spot, no "restart the level" and those consequences can be a lot more serious than changing your righteous/wicked balance or selecting an alternate ending with different party members alive when you run the final "beat the game" cut scene. You absolutely can find yourself starting over from an "oops" that you didn't realize in advance would carry quite the repercussions that it does.

This is part of what makes this game "Elite" and not "some other game".

I agree with the posts quoted above, no hand holding please, if someone is 'stupid' enough to fit an undersized FSD, please allow them to.

Note that building the fastest possible Viper III (745m/s, with 932 m/s boost) requires not only a 2D FSD, but one with the 'stripped down' engineering option.

While personally I'm not good enough to use such a racer without adding some mass for shields, this is a perfectly valid build for Elite Racers events such as the Okinura Station Sprint Challenge. So please don't take away the option.

It's certainly possible to pick up a wanted status while wantonly disregarding the speed limit, tearing around stations at 900m/s. I for one am perfectly happy to accept the risk and pay the consequences if I mess up.
 
Roughly 70 million credits if it happens in a fully combat fitted cutter. Throw in an elite ranked NPC crew which would be lost.

But inhowfar is this relevant?

But if you have a 1.5 billion credit Cutter killing machine, why would you have a dollar'99 Frameshift drive fitted? :S
 
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OK went back to the OP for clues.

I'm in a fully kitted Vulture with the smallest FSD to save power and weight, the FSD is far too weeny to jump out of the system.

The power thing isn't an issue, just put it in group 2 or something so that when weapons are deployed, it shuts off FSD. You can't warp whilst weapons hot anyway.

So the crux is weight. Is weight such an important factor that one is willing to risk death to get that tiny extra few m/s ?

I still do not think it's a game issue, rather more of a conscience decision to downgrade FSD for personal gain, with tangible self-imposed risk.

Circle back to risk / reward again..
 
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Just:

Me: I'm smarter than you!
System: really?
Me: of course! see what all I can do in this game ...
System: but ... ?
Me: what the ****!!!!
System: No, you are not.

____________________

For Vuture is fully safe use 4D thruster, when modded in 3.0 you wil get decent jump range with low energy needs and not too much weight. All smaller FSDs usage are just bad pilot decision (Vulture is too heavy ship for them). In some cases you can save yourself with jump-boost, but between 3 and 4 size FSD is huge difference. If pilot REALLY need less weight, is much better choice reduce Fuel Tank, for Vulture it makes 4t difference. Loss of fuel is something what can be helped with, low jump-range is not.
 
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But if you have a 1.5 billion credit Cutter killing machine, why would you have a dollar'99 Frameshift drive fitted? :S

Don't ask me... personally I would never deprive myself of the ability to high-wake, which is by far the fastest way out of combat, when mass-locked. You asked for the maximum possible loss, though, and that is it :)
 
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i dont know if that was answered already

but what is the reason to fit an undersized FSD in a Vulture in the first place?

There is actually only one "valid" reason and it is save weight (9t). Another mentioned reason is saving energy, but because can be this ship module switched off by energy priorities or permanently ... it is not a valid reason.
 
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Yeah a kind of HAZOP process for this sort of thing. FDev have been working on this game for a while now, and none of the situations (FSD too small, friendly fire, running out of fuel etc.) are things that haven't come up hundreds of times already. They should consider the things (within reason) that could go wrong and the consequences and decide what (if anything) to do about them.

I like the new C&P in general, but some of the flaws in it are things that really should have been spotted and resolved during internal testing or beta or even in discussions during development.

The basic flaw was spotted with Hot ships by most of the people contributing to the C&P feedback thread. Hotships as a basis for C&P is fundamentally illogical, this was the flaw, FDev did not even acknowledge or respond to this at the time. Instead they went full throttle with a half baked idea and low and behold issue after issues has emerged which requires a new patch to bolt on some fix or adjustment of tweak, which in turn causes another imbalance. There are some nice things about the new C&P but it needs rethinking, as this won't be the last thread where some unforeseen consequence to the C&P system plays out.

I accept in this scenario the OP made a miscalculation with his load out but I don't accept that being marooned in a system for a 400 credit bounty, is an intended part of C&P. If the only way out of the situation is effectively get destroyed by system security then this is shocking gameplay.

The change needed (IMHO) to C&P for 3.0 was a pilots federation reputation scale linked to rebuy & PF bounty system that dealt with PvP. The general community gripes with C&P in the past were broadly about PvP related issues like seal clubbing and griefing. I acknowledge that some moves have been made to address these in 3.0 but Hotships has totally muddied the waters and made the whole C&P system over complex and I would argue ultimately unworkable.

Also, if faction and power based C&P was based on reputation, where if hostile you were wanted and liable for bounties. This would mean there was always a way out of a situation like the OP within the system, even if station facilities were initially locked. Simply do work for the controlling factions, e.g. bounty hunting pirates get you rep above hostile then bingo you can dock, outfit and on you go.
 
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Sure. The point is, the developer has decided the best course of action is to funnel people into a no-win scenario. Frontier is rapidly removing almost every way a commander can self-determine an outcome, in a game that proudly shouts "blaze your own trail". Engineering will only add up to 60% of the existing range. 60% of 3LY, is +1.6LY, for example. It's not addressing the issue, if the closest star is 7.6 LY.

Has the developer looked at how players interact, and use the creative solutions used at times, as part of the framework? No. Just remove all the doors, and force the player to seek assisted suicide. There's very little sanity involved in the mechanics at this point.

And, people are still getting offended over jump range. This, frankly, should be the least of our issues, 4 years on. Ships getting stuck in a system forcing the player to eat re-buy -- which teleports the player outside of the system -- just so they can then go pay a sodding bounty (that may be considerably less than the re-buy) makes the entire thing a mockery.

I'm sure Sandy and the team will be taking a very close look at how this is actually working. Because intended or not? It's broken as hell.

edited.

Riiiiiight. But they should probably work on fixing all those C&P circumstances which allow you to be trapped in this kind of situation, rather than "doubling all jump ranges across the board" as a panacea and leaving the C&P system in its exact same dysfunctional state, right?

There might be a decent argument to be made for increasing jump range, but "C&P is convoluted, inconsistent, and can force players into an intractable Kafkaesque nightmare scenario" is not a good argument for derailing the conversation into "let's double the jump range of every ship you guys!"
 
Riiiiiight. But they should probably work on fixing all those C&P circumstances which allow you to be trapped in this kind of situation, rather than "doubling all jump ranges across the board" as a panacea and leaving the C&P system in its exact same dysfunctional state, right?

What does this mean? Frontier developed a game where it is perfectly valid to use any module rating A-E, as well as fit smaller FSD to ships. They they compounded that by allowing these ships to be transferred anywhere. This was fine. Even if one gained a bounty, for any reason, one could swap ships and go and do the needful.

In other words, the mechanics allowed for a scenario, and provided solutions. The developer flippantly turning stuff off, breaks that entire concept.

People are howling that the commander fitted an undersized FSD in a ship which has always required power management, ignoring that everything did not care, until the developer invalidated the entire thing by locking station facilities.

There might be a decent argument to be made for increasing jump range, but "C&P is convoluted, inconsistent, and can force players into an intractable Kafkaesque nightmare scenario" is not a good argument for derailing the conversation into "let's double the jump range of every ship you guys!"

The entire FSD range argument is a garbage bin fire. Arguing ships should have convoluted and suspect jump ranges "just because they can have guns, but they are different to all the other ships that also can have guns but jump range and power is not their choke point" is insanity.

The game has no issue with a ship fitting a tiny FSD because the developer designed it to be that way. They then, thoughtfully, forgot the customisation of their own game by just turning crap off because that was more expedient than considering why we are even in this position.

You don't invent a game with considerable customisation, then summarily ignore that when it's not helpful. In short; the developer turned a bunch of stuff off because they were focused on solving other issues, all of which are of their own doing, and screwed over players in the process.

The community response to that? "Good sir how dare you customise your ship in manner, N, rather than in manner Q?! I am offended!"

The entire thing is a joke at this point, and not a lot of people are asking is the underlying situation problematic - but simply finger pointing, which it just loves to do. If this is what C&P has become, imagine what's going to happen when the developer comes for exploration or trade or whatever it is you care about. Suddenly? I don't think you'll be so flippant about being an authority on how jump range should be determined.

The issue is not the range; it's that the developer has included using cheaper modules as a method to create progression and keep ship costs down, whilst simultaneously offering customisation. Getting offended over that, is just bizarre.

What actually surprises me, even though it probably shouldn't, is even the developer forgot that their own customisation choices were a thing and invalidated a bunch of them.

I am sure the commander did not help themselves by their outfitting choices; however this is only part of the issue. The developer has removed the ability to self-determine an outcome, and instead made it a forgone conclusion. This is not as constructive as people want to believe.
 
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I for one am perfectly happy to accept the risk and pay the consequences if I mess up.
This sums up the C&P system. For anyone ready for it, there is little hassle in getting either fines or bounties. Certainly little "punishment" involved.

But the players who are getting punished, are the ones who aren't ready.
 
I can't believe this thread lasted so long. I posted this original thread as a ED noob, maybe 50hrs of play.

All the vets started saying it's the OP fault as if all players should be vets, as if noobs will get to be vets if they keep playing. When people get frustrated with a game, they simply leave.

The answer was to get killed by an enemy ship. That's not exactly intuitive, your instincts in this game it to stay alive, whether you're a noob, or a vet.

I'm a UX guy, I think about apps from the context of humans, in all their situations.

So some player is playing in a universe. She's trying to stay alive, she's marooned. How exactly is a the right choice for a game designer to force the player to lay down and die as the only way out of the situation. That's shear bad game design.
 
I'm in a fully kitted Vulture with the smallest FSD to save power and weight, the FSD is far too weeny to jump out of the system.

Here's the problem... I accidentally fired on a ship, a g wrong click, became wanted.

Now I'm screwed, I'm essentially marooned with no way out of the system.

- Anonymous protocols apply to me in the station

- I can't get access to the shipyard to switch out of this ship.

- I can't get access to the outfitting to fit a FSD big enough to jump to another system.

- There's only one other outpost in the system, it does solve my access problem

- Have tried self destruct but the bounty is still there so that doesn't solve it.

Any ideas?

I don't think I've got the patience to grind through Harmless in a Sidewinder for weeks to get my fleet again.

Whilst it is an oversight it shows FD had no intention of players building ships with an FSD incapable of jumping. Rather than change the legal issues I would rather them stop people making these metaships and make you keep a suitable FSD on.
IF you want to keep building meta ships then I think you should accept it.

The only small print in this would be because FD did change the rules on you regarding crime i think it would be fair enough for them to swap out the Fsd from all ships with these broken builds with an e rated suitable one and put other in storage then you once more get to make the consiouslyly decision to gimp your ship this time knowing the consequence. Perhaps also put warning in when fitting underspecced part
 
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I'm in a fully kitted Vulture with the smallest FSD to save power and weight, the FSD is far too weeny to jump out of the system.

Here's the problem... I accidentally fired on a ship, a g wrong click, became wanted.

Now I'm screwed, I'm essentially marooned with no way out of the system.

- Anonymous protocols apply to me in the station

- I can't get access to the shipyard to switch out of this ship.

- I can't get access to the outfitting to fit a FSD big enough to jump to another system.

- There's only one other outpost in the system, it does solve my access problem

- Have tried self destruct but the bounty is still there so that doesn't solve it.

Any ideas?

I don't think I've got the patience to grind through Harmless in a Sidewinder for weeks to get my fleet again.

Fit an FSD that is fit for purpose. Anyone that doesn't do this only has themselves to blame. There is no reason not to fit a better FSD. With engineers there should be no power issues and fitting a smaller FSD doesn't make you more meanouverable or faster, or if it does it is so small you won't even notice the difference.

Try getting yourself killed by the local fuzz, even shoot one if you need to. You will need to pay the bounty though at the detention centre. You can then buy a sidewinder and get to where you want to go and transfer your vulture away from the detention centre.
 
I'm in a fully kitted Vulture with the smallest FSD to save power and weight, the FSD is far too weeny to jump out of the system.

Here's the problem... I accidentally fired on a ship, a g wrong click, became wanted.

Now I'm screwed, I'm essentially marooned with no way out of the system.

- Anonymous protocols apply to me in the station

- I can't get access to the shipyard to switch out of this ship.

- I can't get access to the outfitting to fit a FSD big enough to jump to another system.

- There's only one other outpost in the system, it does solve my access problem

- Have tried self destruct but the bounty is still there so that doesn't solve it.

Any ideas?

I don't think I've got the patience to grind through Harmless in a Sidewinder for weeks to get my fleet again.


I think this is a dumb question (haven't experienced the problem so ignorance as well), but if a ship can jump into a system why can't it jump back the way it came (assuming it has fuel)?

Is it only a problem where the ship starts in a system without an FSD, or one that is too small, and then can't get a bigger FSD to leave the system because of a bounty?
 
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