Modes What is Sandro playing at?

[Darkfyre99]

PP seems to me to just be Trucking with the added bonus/risk of being blown up. Unless you like going out with 2 tons of cargo in your engineered PVP gunboat.

So essentially I can do one with minimal risk in a lightly armed cargo ship and the other in a purpose built PVP ship. Seems to me this is the better option due to setups being better optimised with more cargo space and the other more Pew Pew.

Kind of makes the current PP system redundant in my game life. Unless a lack of player PP participation renders whole star systems ghost towns then I can’t see any real need other than getting content locked items.

That seems to be the main beef with the PvP community. All those evil “cheaters” playing Powerplay in modes other than Open, just as the game is designed to be played, who are unavailable to be blown up. In a game system that solely revolves around the movement of PvE tokens.

Without knowing exactly how many players play in which mode, it’s difficult to know how adversely PPOO will affect Powerplay’s player base. That being said, 40 years of game development, and thirty years of personally playing games like Elite: Dangerous Powerplay, indicates that if PPOO goes forward, most players will quit rather than put up with “spontaneous PvP.”

 

[Marra Morgan]

All those evil “cheaters” playing Powerplay in modes other than Open, just as the game is designed to be played, who are unavailable to be blown up. In a game system that solely revolves around the movement of PvE tokens.

Powerplay is a bit more nuanced that that. It is actually designed to be about consensual player versus player conflict.

Spoiler

Powerplay is fundamentally about consensual player versus player conflict.

 

[CariadocThorne]

Weird, DBOBE said there isn't a right way to play the game;



http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/...-e3-xbox-exclusives-and-qa-with-david-braben/

So where do you get the idea there is one?

Now I could be missing something, but that quote appears to be talking about the entire game. Not Powerplay.

Yes, we should all be able to play ED the way we want to, but that means you should be able to seek out a high octane game-experience of constant combat, cruise the galaxy taking selfies on previously undiscovered planets, with previously unvisited suns rising or setting behind you, or sit back, chill, and watch your favourite show on netflix while you do some space-trucking.

It doesn't mean you should be able to effectively ignore a big part of the game mechanics in your chosen activity, and have an advantage over those who don't skip those mechanics.

 

[Jockey79]

Now I could be missing something, but that quote appears to be talking about the entire game. Not Powerplay.

Power Play is, and was at the time DBOBE said it, part of "the entire game".

And PP was made with the mode system in mind, look at the quotes on "The Wall of Information" in my Sig.

It doesn't mean you should be able to effectively ignore a big part of the game mechanics in your chosen activity, and have an advantage over those who don't skip those mechanics.

Yes it does, as PP was made so you can completely ignore Open mode and everything that entails if you want to ignore it.

And if you want to talk "advantage", then combat ships shouldn't be allowed to participate in PP then, as they have an "advantage" over the haulers.
Factor in PvP kills don't count towards PP and merits, that just reinforces that combat ships should be barred from PP as they can only be used to troll those doing PP.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Powerplay is a bit more nuanced that that. It is actually designed to be about consensual player versus player conflict.

Powerplay is fundamentally about consensual player versus player conflict.

And now the full quote...

Open only

• Powerplay contacts are only available to players in open
• Powerplay vouchers and commodities are destroyed if a player enters solo or private groups

Reasoning: We’ve saved the biggest change for last, as making Powerplay Open only goes way beyond the remit of a tweak. We’ve seen this topic discussed many times and we think it’s time we addressed it directly to get as much quality feedback as possible.

Powerplay is fundamentally about consensual player versus player conflict. We think that pretty much all of the systems and rules would benefit from being played out in Open only, as it would dramatically increase the chance of meeting other pledged players and being able to directly affect the outcomes of power struggles.

Note that when Sandro wrote the sentence "Powerplay is fundamentally about consensual player versus player conflict", that was typed as part of his reasoning for his proposal to make Powerplay open-only, to be taken in the full context of that whole section I quoted. It is not and has never been the reasoning behind the Powerplay we have now, that was implmented 3.5 years ago - which is currently that Powerplay is available to all players in all modes, and that Powerplay currently just gives the players who play Powerplay in Open, a reason for PvP, rather than PvP having no real reason to exist, outside of Powerplay in the rest of the game.

So you can't just partially quote that sentence in order to claim Powerplay is something it was never intially released to be, now, because that's just shenanigans

 

[CariadocThorne]

That seems to be the main beef with the PvP community. All those evil “cheaters” playing Powerplay in modes other than Open, just as the game is designed to be played, who are unavailable to be blown up. In a game system that solely revolves around the movement of PvE tokens.

What the hell are "PvE tokens"?

Delivering tokens is not PvE. PvE, by definition, requires some kind of computer controlled opposition. If you aren't playing against anything, it's not PvE. And no, before you say it, delivering tokens itself is not inherently PvP either.

The "meta-game" of PP certainly isn't PvE either, as all the factions are SOLELY advanced or harmed by the combat and "token" deliveries done by players. As there are no factions driven even partly by NPC token deliveries or combat, it simply isn't PvE.

Also, it doesn't revolve "solely" around delivering tokens. Some of the powers have combat ethos too, and there is also undermining.

 

[Jockey79]

PvE, by definition, requires some kind of computer controlled opposition. If you aren't playing against anything, it's not PvE.

There is opposition, the NPC PP ships that fly around.
I certainly see enough of them and I'm not currently pledged to anyone.

The "meta-game" of PP certainly isn't PvE either, as all the factions are SOLELY advanced or harmed by the combat and "token" deliveries done by players. As there are no factions driven even partly by NPC token deliveries or combat, it simply isn't PvE.

Also, it doesn't revolve "solely" around delivering tokens. Some of the powers have combat ethos too, and there is also undermining.

Combat "ethos"... you mean lore / story - which counts for nothing in the game mechanics.

And don't forget, the complaint is about PP being done in Solo - so not exactly supporting the notion it isn't a PvE game.
As PvE combat and PvE token pushing is exactly what people are doing in Solo.

 

[Darkfyre99]

What the hell are "PvE tokens"?

Delivering tokens is not PvE. PvE, by definition, requires some kind of computer controlled opposition. If you aren't playing against anything, it's not PvE. And no, before you say it, delivering tokens itself is not inherently PvP either.

Merits. You collect them from NPCs, whether you collect an allotment from them, buy them from NPCs, or win them by killing NPCs. You cannot collect them from players, even in PvP combat.

The "meta-game" of PP certainly isn't PvE either, as all the factions are SOLELY advanced or harmed by the combat and "token" deliveries done by players. As there are no factions driven even partly by NPC token deliveries or combat, it simply isn't PvE.

Which, again, are acquired via PvE activities. Not only are you unable to acquire them via PvP activities, the more time you spend on PvP, in the vague hope of preventing a player from delivering PvE acquired merits, the less time you’re actually helping your Power.

Also, it doesn't revolve "solely" around delivering tokens. Some of the powers have combat ethos too, and there is also undermining.

Which, again, require PvE activities to be performed. You can’t undermine by killing player ships, only NPCs. Nor can players create fortification Merits, only get them from NPCs. Also, a Power’s ethos affects how they influence NPCs, not players.

 

[BigF]

If all trade no matter what the item is counted to the fortification of a power then it could be interesting. You could crash markets or starve outcwhole systems etc. That would make the whole PP thing actually interesting and a far more varied experience for all.

 

[Goose4291]

And now the full quote...



Note that when Sandro wrote the sentence "Powerplay is fundamentally about consensual player versus player conflict", that was typed as part of his reasoning for his proposal to make Powerplay open-only, to be taken in the full context of that whole section I quoted. It is not and has never been the reasoning behind the Powerplay we have now, that was implmented 3.5 years ago - which is currently that Powerplay is available to all players in all modes, and that Powerplay currently just gives the players who play Powerplay in Open, a reason for PvP, rather than PvP having no real reason to exist, outside of Powerplay in the rest of the game.

So you can't just partially quote that sentence in order to claim Powerplay is something it was never intially released to be, now, because that's just shenanigans

Except of course, Sandro wrote a similar statement before powerplays inception

Sandro from 29/5/15: Make no mistake, one element of Powerplay is about competition within a power - that's intentional it's also about grand scale territory control between powers, offering context and reward for consensual PvP competition and letting Commanders feel part of a team.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ific-modules?p=2298988&viewfull=1#post2298988

 

[Riverside]

Except of course, Sandro wrote a similar statement before powerplays inception



https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ific-modules?p=2298988&viewfull=1#post2298988

The letting people feel part of a team also applies to the solo player though - they can contribute to the greater whole even if it is not directly.

I think most of this hinges on the number of players involved, and that's something FDev can see & we cannot. I put my 'Meaningful PvP' proposal (a new layer of manipulation) forward on the basis that there were a significant number of pledged non-Open players. If that number is very low then giving PP over to become the meaning for PvP is a reasonable course; it's existing assets can be used instead of having to create new ones for a new layer.

 

[Jockey79]

Except of course, Sandro wrote a similar statement before powerplays inception



https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ific-modules?p=2298988&viewfull=1#post2298988

Cracking find on that quote.

Makes it even funnier that they don't reward PvP yet from the start they claimed it was the PvP part of the game.

I think these two are in charge of the office;

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Cracking find on that quote.

Makes it even funnier that they don't reward PvP yet from the start they claimed it was the PvP part of the game.

I think these two are in charge of the office;

Yeah now this is strange. They say one thing and do another. Why do they do this?

I like this link though. Especially this part:

"They're meant to be fun rewards for taking part in the Powerplay system. Of course, we understand that they will automatically have a high inherent value simply because of their uniqueness, and that this will be further enhanced by the gates they sit behind. We're cool with that."

They should stay there.

But nothing stays the same forever Amirite?

 

[Jockey79]

Yeah now this is strange. They say one thing and do another. Why do they do this?

I like this link though. Especially this part:

"They're meant to be fun rewards for taking part in the Powerplay system. Of course, we understand that they will automatically have a high inherent value simply because of their uniqueness, and that this will be further enhanced by the gates they sit behind. We're cool with that."

They should stay there.

But nothing stays the same forever Amirite?

Serious questions, as I've not got any of the PP toys anymore and didn't have any when Engineering came out;

1) Can you engineer them?
2) Are they equal / better than engineered parts by default?

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Serious questions, as I've not got any of the PP toys anymore and didn't have any when Engineering came out;

1) Can you engineer them?
2) Are they equal / better than engineered parts by default?

Depends on the module. Primatics a huge yes. big boost in MJ.

Pack hounds do aoe splash dmg and have a higher chance at hitting valued targets more than seeker racks. Imperial hammer does a bit more DMG if you land all 3 shots. Fixed Enforcer multicannons do a bit more dmg than stock ones by default and so on.

All can be engineered. All have strengths and weaknesses per ship and build.

Thats why they should be separated. Its a small unique boost from the side grade. And gives each specific power its identity.

 

[Jockey79]

Depends on the module. Primatics a huge yes. big boost in MJ.

Pack hounds do aoe splash dmg and have a higher chance at hitting valued targets more than seeker racks. Imperial hammer does a bit more DMG if you land all 3 shots. Fixed Enforcer multicannons do a bit more dmg than stock ones by default and so on.

All can be engineered. All have strengths and weaknesses per ship and build.

Thats why they should be separated. Its a small unique boost from the side grade. And gives each specific power its identity.

Right, so as they can be engineered - they are way more than "fun rewards for taking part".
They are game breaking essentials for anyone wanting to join PvP.

Now if they didn't qualify for engineering, that would be another thing.
But as it stands, essential modules cannot be locked away from people based on mode choice.
So they either need a nerf and engineering options taking off them, or they need to be removed from PP and kept available to all.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Right, so as they can be engineered - they are way more than "fun rewards for taking part".
They are game breaking essentials for anyone wanting to join PvP.

Now if they didn't qualify for engineering, that would be another thing.
But as it stands, essential modules cannot be locked away from people based on mode choice.
So they either need a nerf and engineering options taking off them, or they need to be removed from PP and kept available to all.

Doesnt make any sense lol. Read the link Sandro spoke about above.

 

[Riverside]

Right, so as they can be engineered - they are way more than "fun rewards for taking part".
They are game breaking essentials for anyone wanting to join PvP.

Now if they didn't qualify for engineering, that would be another thing.
But as it stands, essential modules cannot be locked away from people based on mode choice.
So they either need a nerf and engineering options taking off them, or they need to be removed from PP and kept available to all.

I feel much the same. Removing them seems unlikely, making them available outside of PP seems churlish but removing/reducing their effectiveness so no PP module is a meta module, or introducing un-gated equivalents seems reasonable.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

I feel much the same. Removing them seems unlikely, making them available outside of PP seems churlish but removing/reducing their effectiveness so no PP module is a meta module, or introducing un-gated equivalents seems reasonable.

They arent really in a Meta. Its that not everyone and their mother should have access to every one of them. Nobody was never supposed to. Biweave is more Meta than Prismatics. Even on Bigger ships.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ific-modules?p=2298988&viewfull=1#post2298988

I mean just look at what he says there. Why should it be any different. It was geared so people get involved and stay involved. Not just hop around.

Im interested to see how they handle it. I can understand why everyone would want them and feels they deserve them. But it also removes their intended purpose. So if they do give everyone those modules. There would still have to be something with the upgraded powerplay system to work for. That I would be fine with.

 

[Jockey79]

They arent really in a Meta. Its that not everyone and their mother should have access to every one of them. Nobody was never supposed to. Biweave is more Meta than Prismatics. Even on Bigger ships.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ific-modules?p=2298988&viewfull=1#post2298988

I mean just look at what he says there. Why should it be any different. It was geared so people get involved and stay involved. Not just hop around.

Im interested to see how they handle it. I can understand why everyone would want them and feels they deserve them. But it also removes their intended purpose. So if they do give everyone those modules. There would still have to be something with the upgraded powerplay system to work for. That I would be fine with.

Being able to engineer them removes there "intended purpose" of being a "fun reward for playing power play" - as they are a meta item.

It explains when I do PvP, why everyone seems to have the same flak cannons.
Because it isn't a "fun" reward, it's an essential piece of gear.

Which if that's the case, they should be open to all.
Remove the ability to engineer them, and they are fun bits of gear for doing PP.