New Exploration Mechanics: What I really want to know

[Taen]

So I've seen a lot of similar posts in many of the other threads, and I feel like I'm at least a competent explorer myself. However, I'm struggling to understand how people can tell from glancing at the system map what the relative distances between planets are, or the size of rings, the types of orbits, whether or not there's interestingly deep canyons, etc.

Yes, it's great to see at a glance how many bodies are in a system and their relative alignments, but without clicking on each and reading/digesting the orbital information about each, I fail to understand this oft-claimed "at a glance" from the System Map.

This is a genuine query btw (I'm currently out on a short mapping expedition) so if there are hints and tips for the current system, please share!

As to being on-topic, I'm personally cautiously optimistic about the proposed changes and very much looking forward to seeing them in action (livestream and beta). Until then I reserve judgement.

I'm now behind by two pages on this thread, so forgive me if others answered. The answers probably vary anyway.

Orbiting bodies you can tell the orbiting distance by (as you say) clicking on them. But that's tedious to do too many times. But there are other telltale signs that something is interesting. For example, colouration that indicates some volcanism (so for metal-rich and rocky, going from beige to a more orange colour) also usually indicates that the body is quite close to its parent body (assuming it's a moon). So I'll usually click on those and at least glance at the orbital period and radius. If both are low, it's likely to be more interesting. Another sign might also be how spherical the body is. If it has a more pronounced egg shape, it's again likely to be a bit more interesting. (There aren't many terrestrial examples of this I can think of, though. I'm not sure I've ever seen a landable that wasn't either pretty close to a proper sphere, or, a potato) Tiny moons/planets can be spotted as well, but that's harder if they aren't next to a very slightly larger body. I don't know what the size threshhold is for when it shifts to the larger planet image size, but now that it occurs to me that there must be one, I'll probably try and find it.

You can also get a sense of a planet's "texture" from the image. The more scratchy looking it is, the more likely it is to have some good canyons on it. This will vary by planet type, of course. But you look at enough of them and you get a better sense of it. If you'd like I can dig up some examples later.

Rings you can get some info from colour. The giant ones are visually distinct, and again I can give you some examples if you're curious. If there's a huge ring on a planet, once you know what to look for you spot it immediately.

Feel free to PM me the system map, if you'd like. Or system name if you'd like some help and aren't too far off from where my current location will be when I run out of fuel later today (I'll be Colonia, already contacted the rats as a formality, but I knew going in that they wouldn't be able to help me. I intentionally stranded myself at Systeia Free AA-A h2, and it's worth a look because nobody has made it this high before! Yes, I'm nuts.)

 

[Taen]

These are indeed the questions ... hopefully we'll get to see it in action sooner (livestream asap rather than wait for beta when it might be too late to change significantly?) rather than later.

One thing I haven't seen anyone say explicitly ... right now we find out more about planets by "just flying towards them". Now eveyone says this like it's a criticism but the thing is, I like flying a spaceship. If we're now gonna spend time in the new scanning interface, how "fun" is this gonna be? I feel like I'd rather be looking out of my cockpit flying the ship than looking at a flat scanning screen, that's a different game. I just can't gauge what that's gonna feel like yet but I guess we all have our doubts about that. I wonder of there's any mileage in having the scanner do its thing automatically while we fly around as an alternative to us having to do it manually through the new screen? It could be a lot slower and perhaps less accurately (maybe it completes after a minute or so, notifying us with an audio cue that it's resolved a bunch of "candidate" signals for us to double check if we want?). If we want to take over and do it ourselves we can, but if we just want to fly and let the automated systems take a stab at it then that's an option too?

Ho hum ... I guess we need to wait and see. One further question ... if the new system REALLY sucks, will FD be prepared to scrap it or are we already stuck with it perhaps? (Have FD ever scrapped an idea they've committed to because the players really didn't like it?).

I'm less concerned about this, largely because we can always choose to fly anywhere we want. I'll fly to interesting locations regardless of any sort of scanning. That said, it does sound like we will be spending a lot of time on the scanning interface which means we're probably not moving at the same time.

Maybe they'll have a way to do this and pilot the ship simultaneously? Or even... dare I say it... an optional auto-pilot that just flies to within orbit of a selected body? (Yeah, I'm sure that will get us put on a hit list if it's an optional module. "lern to pilut yer ship lolz! *blam!* *blam!*" "What's a 'ship lolz'? All I see is this rebuy screen.")

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I just hope the new system will provide a lot of information about the planet after you pinged them. Something like "This water world is one of the wettest planets in this system, from the standpoint of water."

 

[Taen]

Frontier obviously created the new scan mechanic as a TIME SAVER.

How do we know this?

Think about it. The current time sinks for exploration are as follows:

1) travel to object
2) scan object

Under the proposed system we have:

1) scan object
2) lob probes at object

But if we kept the old scan mechanic and added the new probes, we'd have:

1) travel to object
2) scan object
3) lob probes at object


From this vantage point it's easy to see that keeping the old mechanic and adding the probes would dramatically slow down exploration. Ergo it seems painfully obvious that one of the reasons that Frontier created the new scan mechanic was to SAVE TIME in order to make room in the time budget for the new Probe Mechanic.

I'm pretty sure we have to fly to the thing almost right up to the crack below the equator before we can probe it.

This does remind me of a thought I had some time ago, which was to have a probe that would go through a system for you, doing all the DSS scans while you do other things, perhaps in other systems. You'd get a notification that it was done and have to come back and collect it. But if I could do something like that, perhaps several systems at a time, I could be doing other things that I enjoy. And it might make for an interesting dynamic if these things could be detected by others, who might also try and collect them. (and they could be used to find other explorers... though just for the screenshot dynamic alone, I suspect most of us are in solo or PG.)

 

[playfuldreamer]

I don't really see how the process can become more involved without taking up more time.

This I a big change and our current rhythms of playing are going to change. It will take longer but maybe it will be enjoyable, the current mechanic is so shallow and instant that its not really gameplay. Hopefully the new mechanic will give us a sense of exploration.
So for it to offer the same info whilst taking the same amount of time will be impossible.

But I do think that pretty quickly that we will be able to read the system waveform and with a quick zoom be able to suss out anything interesting.

There will also be new things to find that will hopefully be more exciting than a nice coloured planet.

Good points. I also look at the possibilities the additional gameplay systems will open for other activities other than exploring. We already know some of the exploration changes will touch mining. I'm excited by this new "embrace change" mindset at FDev. We need it or the game is going to be stuck in a rut.

 

[Taen]

For some people it's the "get to fly around the system" part, which lets be honest is never off the table under any game play mechanic. For the other folks they claim it's about "time" but clearly it isn't time because otherwise they would embrace the new system, or reject probing altogether. There is something else going on here, and I am not sure that it's 100% logical.

It won't be 100% logical for any of us until we actually see it / experience it in action. But as for time, I can currently be in an out of a system is well under a minute if there's nothing that piques my curiosity. I'm not sure how detailed these signatures are, but I have a hard time believing that I'll be able to get the info I'm accustomed to at a glance in under at least a few minutes. I gather I won't have to point my ship at it, at least. (Or, I really hope not. Because otherwise the Conda will be REALLY bad at this. Not that it's great at it now, mind.)

My exploration style is generally to do most of my scanning at my destination. (Said destination is usually a region, rather than a specific system) But I always find things that interest me along the way, and I always scan a gas giant if I see one and it's not too far away. The new system definitely helps if the only gas giant is at a secondary star, but what I don't know is how quickly I will be able to determine if a gas giant is present in the system. Do I need to point the scanner until I find it? Will there be some telltale info after the initial scan that suggests the presence of particular body types?

It's unknown whether range, or manual pointed direction of the scanner (assuming that's allowed?), or even zoom (yes that was also one of the sliders on the screenshot) will make any difference in the strength or duration of a scan (I certainly hope it does). The only thing we know so far that will clarify scans is using the distance focus filter to show only energy signals at that range.

Afaik, there doesn't seem to be a flying mechanic involved with the discovery scanner screen. They did say that multicrew pilots will be able to use the scanner while you fly, and that both pilot and crew will be able to use the scanner screen at the same time.

And this could either be great or horrific depending on the implementation. Or, more likely, it'll be one of those two, and then course corrected toward mediocrity. Multicrew sounds good, though. It'd be nice to know how tagging will work in that scenario. Presumably like wing scanning (which was horribly broken the last time I tried it, but it's been a while)

I agree 100% that it would be better if the whole interface was just an alternate GUI or menu in the cockpit. I would take the price of any inconvenience, crash hazard, or wonky interface in order to have it moved to the cockpit, or at least optionally usable in via a cockpit menu/hologram. I would frankly love it if all of the dislocated menu screens were brought into the cockpit. Except maybe the galmap... that one is crazy enough, and would require its own stellar cartographics room on the ship... maybe with spacelegs?

Complete agreement (well, except for spacelegs. I've never wanted them. I've got my own legs! What I don't have is a spaceship). It really takes you out of things to go to these disconnected systems. I spend a lot of time in the galaxy map, and will sometimes forget that I'm even using my ship! Same with the system view, though I spend a lot less time there.

 

[Taen]

This is the problem with the way FD drip feed info. Rampant speculation and multiple interpretations.

To you cmdr it is pretty clear, but for me from what I've read I disagree about point 2. From what I read you still honk and then open the new interface.

I also read that at a glance, once learnt, you can tell what type of planets are present. Just as quickly as now. Adam did respond somewhere confirming that was the idea.

So all these threads are largely pointless when we don't really know how it will work because FD didn't demo it...

In defense of my thread, my main point was not to speculate but rather to ask for clarification about how my life was going to change. I think many of us fear that we're going to be railroaded into a specific gameplay style that doesn't necessarily suit us. But we just don't have enough info, so anxiety prevails.

 

[Taen]

It should be quicker to get the same information. The new DS is the old ADS and DSS rolled into one and getting all of that information should be much quicker then the old way. The main issue is that the old ADS got you some information instantly. Personally I don't mind that.

Saying that, if you can tell what planets are what from the wave forms, then you will have similar information available to you instantly. How easy that is, how fast it is and whether it is good enough is another question.

I gather that I'll have to rotate 360 degrees, stop, focus, etc. in order to get that info. The advantage is that this actually DSS scans the objects. The disadvantage is that it's likely to require similar scan times as now per object (or rather, I'm interpreting it that way) and when I'm just passing through somewhere this isn't very practical.

I want to know right away if it's worth stopping somewhere. With 400 billion star systems in the galaxy, being able to have basic information at a glance is essential.

 

[Taen]

I just hope the new system will provide a lot of information about the planet after you pinged them. Something like "This water world is one of the wettest planets in this system, from the standpoint of water."

From that standpoint, it probably finds being drunk to be unpleasant as well.

 

[Alec Turner]

I just hope the new system will provide a lot of information about the planet after you pinged them. Something like "This water world is one of the wettest planets in this system, from the standpoint of water."

Personally I'd like to see them incorporate data from the Likedeeler dangerous guide to the galaxy. Who wouldn't want to know that the heated ceilings in the Dhan system run on 380 volt 3-phase current or that Mattei Hub in the Raijuhan Yi system is THE place to go when you need a two-for-one liver transplant!

 

[akaliel]

I just hope the new system will provide a lot of information about the planet after you pinged them. Something like "This water world is one of the wettest planets in this system, from the standpoint of water."

The new system has to be coupled with things worth finding. I like having new gameplay added onto the boring existing exploration mechanics, but the real enjoyment of exploration lies in the discovery. If every planet continues to be one boring rock with nothing interesting on it, then people are just going to not bother doing it.

Even if the odds are slim, if you can find that one pot of gold to make it all worth while it feel like winning the lottery.

Unfortunately given FD's reputation in this matter, I suspect what will happen is they'll deliver a brand new exploration mechanic and forget to give us anything interesting to find with it. Just some stupid 10% bump in exploration payout.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I gather that I'll have to rotate 360 degrees, stop, focus, etc. in order to get that info. The advantage is that this actually DSS scans the objects. The disadvantage is that it's likely to require similar scan times as now per object (or rather, I'm interpreting it that way) and when I'm just passing through somewhere this isn't very practical.

I want to know right away if it's worth stopping somewhere. With 400 billion star systems in the galaxy, being able to have basic information at a glance is essential.

We don't know now if its worth stopping somewhere. Remember POI will be more important in exploration now which will give us reasons to land at landable planets instead of just scanning earthlikes and terraformables and moving on.

As to rotating 360deg, I really don't know how it will work so I don't know yet. As to the new DS scans I am pretty sure it will be much quicker moving your ship around instead of having to flying to each planet. The only reason to fly to each planet is if you want to map every single on of them.

If all you are interested in is eathlikes then I am sure a look at the waveforms will tell you that after learning how it works.

If its interesting orbits, then that may be an issue. We will have to wait and see.

As to having basic information at a glance, I don't see why we need it. Yes there are 400 billion systems but we are never ever going to visit them all anyway, so speed isn't really an issue, it's whether the gameplay is fun and compelling or not which is the issue. At the moment, getting that basic information is not fun or compelling and I generally find the information rather useless most of the time as non of it actually tells me anything of mcuh use even with DSS scan. I want to be able to find interesting POI on planets and with the current system there is no way.

 

[Dizzy B High]

ii. Honk and align for fuel scooping, or honk and scan neutron / align for neutron scooping

There is no Honking while flying, Honking will only be able to be done from the new exploration HUD.

It was said in the livestream numerous times.

 

[Taen]

We don't know now if its worth stopping somewhere. Remember POI will be more important in exploration now which will give us reasons to land at landable planets instead of just scanning earthlikes and terraformables and moving on.

As to rotating 360deg, I really don't know how it will work so I don't know yet. As to the new DS scans I am pretty sure it will be much quicker moving your ship around instead of having to flying to each planet. The only reason to fly to each planet is if you want to map every single on of them.

If all you are interested in is eathlikes then I am sure a look at the waveforms will tell you that after learning how it works.

If its interesting orbits, then that may be an issue. We will have to wait and see.

As to having basic information at a glance, I don't see why we need it. Yes there are 400 billion systems but we are never ever going to visit them all anyway, so speed isn't really an issue, it's whether the gameplay is fun and compelling or not which is the issue. At the moment, getting that basic information is not fun or compelling and I generally find the information rather useless most of the time as non of it actually tells me anything of mcuh use even with DSS scan. I want to be able to find interesting POI on planets and with the current system there is no way.

I'm in a small but venerable minority that doesn't much care about POI and considers all that basic information to be vital. We're trying to work out what makes the galaxy tick, and this new system has the potential to almost completely stop our progress. I readily concede that FDev can't cater to us. But it'd be nice if they didn't take away our ability to meaningfully progress on our goals. Data works a lot better if you have a lot of it, and have the ability to collect more. This isn't taking that ability away, but it's potentially locking it behind a new minigame that could slow us down a whole lot.

For me, getting that information *is* fun. I'm not saying this new way might not be, but in the very least it has the potential to slow us down, maybe dramatically.

What that initial scan tells us might make a huge difference to me. If they provided some basic system details, such as average elemental compositions, helium/hydrogen levels, etc. it would go a *very* long way toward making me personally feel better about it.

 

[MrFailfactory]

So I've seen a lot of similar posts in many of the other threads, and I feel like I'm at least a competent explorer myself. However, I'm struggling to understand how people can tell from glancing at the system map what the relative distances between planets are, or the size of rings, the types of orbits, whether or not there's interestingly deep canyons, etc.

Yes, it's great to see at a glance how many bodies are in a system and their relative alignments, but without clicking on each and reading/digesting the orbital information about each, I fail to understand this oft-claimed "at a glance" from the System Map.

This is a genuine query btw (I'm currently out on a short mapping expedition) so if there are hints and tips for the current system, please share!

As to being on-topic, I'm personally cautiously optimistic about the proposed changes and very much looking forward to seeing them in action (livestream and beta). Until then I reserve judgement.

Unless there is some secret, or some unofficial add-on, the only "at-a-glance" is whether or not the system is just iceballs. Everything else, they do indeed need to look, and this takes longer than what they think it does, in the same light that people who faff around on their phones while driving don't actually realize how long they haven't been looking at the road, or how far they've travelled when they just "glanced" at it.

To the OP:

I'll be honest - you refer to "more casual Explorers," but your own self-described process is about as casual as it gets, regardless of whether or not it's your primary activity in game. Perhaps you are referring to those who just do Exploration-type activities sometimes as the "more casuals?"

Edit: I just read your post above this one. In your case, I would say that there is a good chance that you might be able to go faster, once you are good with the new mechanics. This is predicated upon the assumption that you are wanting (current) DSS scans of those things you are looking for, and not just the blanket ADS scan. This assumption may very well be incorrect, and if so, you are almost certainly going to be going slower overall.

Riôt

 

[akaliel]

I'm in a small but venerable minority that doesn't much care about POI and considers all that basic information to be vital. We're trying to work out what makes the galaxy tick, and this new system has the potential to almost completely stop our progress. I readily concede that FDev can't cater to us. But it'd be nice if they didn't take away our ability to meaningfully progress on our goals. Data works a lot better if you have a lot of it, and have the ability to collect more. This isn't taking that ability away, but it's potentially locking it behind a new minigame that could slow us down a whole lot.

For me, getting that information *is* fun. I'm not saying this new way might not be, but in the very least it has the potential to slow us down, maybe dramatically.

What that initial scan tells us might make a huge difference to me. If they provided some basic system details, such as average elemental compositions, helium/hydrogen levels, etc. it would go a *very* long way toward making me personally feel better about it.

Ok ya, here's the thing. I hate to break this to you, but nothing makes the Elite galaxy tick. There's no mystery out there for you to solve here. Their solar system generator works off some preconditions (icy planets around cold stars, etc), that couples with a random number generator. That's really it. You're not on Stargate Universe's Destiny, there's no mystery, no puzzle. And supercruising between different planets and waiting for an hourglass to fill is not fun. No matter how much you're trying to convince yourself it is. And I hope to god FD ignores you.

 

[Taen]

Unless there is some secret, or some unofficial add-on, the only "at-a-glance" is whether or not the system is just iceballs. Everything else, they do indeed need to look, and this takes longer than what they think it does, in the same light that people who faff around on their phones while driving don't actually realize how long they haven't been looking at the road, or how far they've travelled when they just "glanced" at it.

To the OP:

I'll be honest - you refer to "more casual Explorers," but your own self-described process is about as casual as it gets, regardless of whether or not it's your primary activity in game. Perhaps you are referring to those who just do Exploration-type activities sometimes as the "more casuals?"

Edit: I just read your post above this one. In your case, I would say that there is a good chance that you might be able to go faster, once you are good with the new mechanics. This is predicated upon the assumption that you are wanting (current) DSS scans of those things you are looking for, and not just the blanket ADS scan. This assumption may very well be incorrect, and if so, you are almost certainly going to be going slower overall.

Riôt

Heh. I kind of regret using the word "casual" here. Seems a bit elitist on my part. (If anything, I probably should have said "harmless" or "novice" )

I explore at the place I'm going to, but like to keep an eye on things along the way in case something strikes my fancy. I explore almost exclusively, and always have specific goals in mind. Otherwise it would be very easy to get bogged down before I ever made it 500 ly from my point of origin. My exploration depends entirely on my goals. Most of my concerns relate to the journey to my destination. It's entirely possible I would like this system once I arrived. But I discover a lot during the journey. The net effect of what I'm seeing here is that I'll either have to slow way down, or not scan in order to keep something resembling my current pace.

I do want DSS scans of specific things, like gas giants as I oft mention. (Just one per system suffices, for data collection purposes) For many of the other things I enjoy looking for... I don't know. I'll have to try it out. I would just love it if FDev could quell my anxiety on the subject.

 

[Taen]

Ok ya, here's the thing. I hate to break this to you, but nothing makes the Elite galaxy tick. There's no mystery out there for you to solve here. Their solar system generator works off some preconditions (icy planets around cold stars, etc), that couples with a random number generator. That's really it. You're not on Stargate Universe's Destiny, there's no mystery, no puzzle. And supercruising between different planets and waiting for an hourglass to fill is not fun. No matter how much you're trying to convince yourself it is. And I hope to god FD ignores you.

Kind of you to say. But we've worked out quite a bit of it. And I'm not looking for Raxxla. I want to know the distribution of everything and how to predict what will be found where. Within smaller regions statistical predictions can be made as to what will be found. Some things won't be found (or diminish considerably) after around 1000 ly above the galactic plane. It's a simulated galaxy, and yes there's random seeds. But computers aren't that good at random. Some days I think I play ED more in a spreadsheet.

I do agree that supercruising for vast amounts of time isn't exactly compelling gameplay. But, at least in my original post, I haven't advocated anything in particular. I just want clarification as to how much my routine is likely to change in order to meet the same objectives. I'm not, in any way, suggesting they are obligated to cater to me (I'm unquestionably a very niche player).

 

[akaliel]

It's a simulated galaxy, and yes there's random seeds. But computers aren't that good at random. Some days I think I play ED more in a spreadsheet.

It randomizes within the ruleset they gave it. Clearly much more than you think. And computers are actually pretty good at random. Here each system is a unique 64 bit integer. That way no two will ever be alike. It doesn't need to be any more random than that. I build programs like this for a living, I've seen under the hood for how this stuff works.

You do understand that the rest of us want to play a game, not a spreadsheet, right?

 

[Taen]

And yet two are very frequently alike, particularly when those two different only by the number at the end. Systems won't be identical, but they will often share various attributes. The most obvious we've found is helium. A system with high helium levels means any of the local systems that share it's name will also have high helium levels. Other parents exist. In one area I found it of ten systems there had ringed ammonia worlds at around 4000 ls.

As for the last comment, I'm not asking anybody to play my way. Refer to the original post. I want to know how this new system potentially changes how I play and affects the amount of time it takes. Questions were asked about how I explore and I answered.