Anti ADS people JUSTIFY your no compromise stance here.

[kpmop]

I did.

What light from yonder planet shines, it is a giant but of colour not revealed. And verily I say, it would take too long to use the FSS and watch scant seconds slip away. And so I must depart, but no good sir, my stuffz you cannot haz.

Ah well. maybe the next thread...

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

As I've been getting overly involved in the disc...er arguments about the ADS I thought I'd try a thread where those against it's return can justify their reasons. Can we ALL try to be civil here? (and yes I AM looking at myself )

caveats:

1) Not liking the ADS is NOT a valid reason
2) Liking the new FSS mechanic is NOT a valid reason
3) Not liking others to have a choice is NOT a valid reason

all those above are purely selfish reasons and thus why I class them as not valid. Please try to not be selfish.

please also realise that:

a) The ADS does not make exploring faster or easier or more lucrative.
b) You HAVE to use the FSS in unexplored areas to get planet locations.
c) no one (reasonable) pro ADS is asking for a complete roll back.


The ONLY valid reason I have heard so far over the threads has been of Dev time. That I agree is a valid concern. Also Mooka added a concern for dilution of the FSS mechanic, that is Also valid.

If "like" or "dislike" aren't arguments, than what is this thread about?
I mean...this whole forum is just circling around personal opinions and sometimes technical issues. What would be left when not taking opinions in the pool?

12345 people like the ADS but 12345 people do not like the ADS is an absolute valuable argument and reasoning for me!!!

 

[Leper Messiah]

No, this isn't a game built by committee, if it was PvP would be banned for starters, PowerPlay would never have got off the group, and Engineering would be more of a mess.

You asked for a compromise but how many compromises are you willing to allow. Just because someone might want hollow circles and someone else wants the full system map, why should one lose out to another. Come on you are trying to broker the peace here or something, you have to appease everyone

So you can't justify a no compromise viewpoint okey dokey

Yes it's quicker, but it's involved. You don't do an awful lot, but you still do a lot more than with the ADS which involved a lot of flying in straight line towards a distant destination - which required so little player input we, if we are being frank, spent a lot of time missing the window within which input was required, busy that we were alt-tabbing in and out of the game.
And in a video game, you always want to prioritize rewarding engagement over rewarding time spent.

That's not quite the point of this thread though, I agree "for me" the FSS more involving and I prefer it. I also sympathise that some do not care for it for a multitude of reasons and I cannot see why a compromise cannot be attained seeing as it shouldn't effect the pro FSS (which includes me) one jot!

It's just *your* opinion that all the reasons in other threads are "selfish".

I'm not sure it's a valid reason for creating a new thread on the topic, dismissing all the previous arguments you didn't agree with as "selfish".

Please direct me to the comment I made saying ALL the other reasons in other threads are selfish? hint...you can't, because I did not. If you can't understand why I say any reason along the lines "I like it so others can swivel" is not a valid reason then so be it, you cannot contribute in a civil manner to this discussion.

I don't mind the FSS - it's fast once you know what you're doing, and you know if you found things.

I'm much more annoyed by this watching paint dry time:

Agreed 100% I HATED that, others did not though.

If we continue discussing about the ADS it might be that we come up with the complete works of William Shakespeare.

There, that's my reason against it.

Been and done twice (thrive even?) over before I started this.

Because if fdevs cater to any of the changes for a minority group, then are they going to set a president to allow changes from other minorities?

I expect...
I want a module with a button that I press once and it reveals everything in the galaxy, absolutely everything. Will they implement that please?

I also want a module for one jump to anywhere in the galaxy, it takes me too long to get to Sag A or beagle point. Can they implement that at the same time please.

Also people don't have to use my modules it if they don't want, it's optional.

I must reiterate that you can still get a system map, you just have to put more effort into it now.

Or explore the bubble, this fills the systmap, and I'm sure there's far more to discover. (Incl. Raxxla)

<sigh> hard to be civil with snarky strawman stuff like this but I'll try, what you say are all "I win" stuff, bringing back the ADS is the OPPOSITE, please let that sink in a tad before your next post, TYVM.

OP, it might help if you add a line or two about how that compromise would look like before I tell you if and why I am against it.

This is very true, but I'm not qualified to say what is what, this thread is about people unwilling to compromise. If we can establish people can compromise we can move on from there. But there have been a LOT of reasonable compromises from many people including the duck chap. I've still yet to see more than 2 reasonable reasons for not wanting to compromise out of all this, which tells me the anti ADS argument is (up to page 5) non existent beyond mainly selfish reasons. Onto page 6 after this so that may change!

 

[babelfisch]

What light from yonder planet shines, it is a giant but of colour not revealed. And verily I say, it would take too long to use the FSS and watch scant seconds slip away. And so I must depart, but no good sir, my stuffz you cannot haz.

Ah well. maybe the next thread...

Close but not quite!

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Let’s see, how to justify leaving the ADS dead and buried within the OP’s parameters...

The FSS is interactive and engaging. The ADS was passive and mindless. The FSS makes you actually have to do something. The ADS allowed exploration to be reduced to a trio of long running, self-invoking macros.

Vastly more information is provided by the FSS, the ADS provided nothing.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly - Elite is not now, nor has even been a Design-by-Committee game. This is a change that Frontier has decided to make. Love it or hate it does not matter. The decision is theirs, not ours.

 

[Aashenfox]

Let’s see, how to justify leaving the ADS dead and buried within the OP’s parameters...

The FSS is interactive and engaging. The ADS was passive and mindless. The FSS makes you actually have to do something. The ADS allowed exploration to be reduced to a trio of long running, self-invoking macros.

Vastly more information is provided by the FSS, the ADS provided nothing.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly - Elite is not now, nor has even been a Design-by-Committee game. This is a change that Frontier has decided to make. Love it or hate it does not matter. The decision is theirs, not ours.

 

[Old Duck]

I also sympathise...

I used to be a sympathizer like you, but then I took a troll's arrow in the knee.

But there have been a LOT of reasonable compromises from many people including the duck chap.

Spoiler

 

[babelfisch]

How much sense makes the coexistence of the ADS and FSS lore / technology wise? For example, if I honk the system with the ADS, why does the FSS not tell me the position of a body even though the ADS just told me? So either add ADS information to the FSS and reduce it to DSS levels (which doesn't go well for those who prefer the new system) or make sure that exploration doesn't make any sense (it's already bad enough) and annoy those who want a experience which is consistent with the game world.

Sorry if that has already been adressed, I didn't keep track of the last 400 pages.

PS
And please don't tell me it's optional, people already call you a non-explorer if you dare to go without a AMFU/Heat Sinks/SRV/Shields/etc. If a module exists it will be used.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Let's say you are playing a racing game. Having a button that instantly teleports you to the finishing line would be kind of problematic.

The FSS is just that teleport though, it's the EASIER option!

Hmm is that a response that helps a good conversation along?

You want posters to do polite conversation.
And sets the rules of what is a worthy point as well.

My point of view at the moment:
Old system as it was, would not fit into elite.
It would need too much work in balancepasses.
Should it be able to get all the points of interest the new can?? Etc etc. The drama would go on.

No leave it out, and work on improving the new one.

Because my reply solved the problem, don't like something don't use it. Of course it fits in Elite it did for 4 years, why does it need a balance pass? Do you mean for the amount of info it gives? How many balance passes does combat get...ok I vote against all the combat balance passes because it's a waste of dev time devoted to thing "I" don't care about...fair?

Just a point of clarification, the FSS gives you the system map as well. What you are alluding to is those that want the system map immediately, not 15 seconds after the honk, not 1 minute after the honk, but immediately after the 5 second honk has completed. This discussion isn't about getting the system map via the ADS or the FSS, it is about a delay, abit a very short delay, that some are unwilling to tolerate.

And why does that affect you in such a negative way that you can't compromise?

Yes, and not only that, I do remember FDev very simply claiming that the ADS did not satisfy/fit in with their vision of exploration - and that is really all that matters. All this noise about a compromise is just noise. I've seen different suggested 'compromises', I even suggested a non-compromise (engineering options for the FSS), but to no surprise, no single 'compromise' satisfies all the devoted ADSers - many of them don't actually seem to want to compromise, they just want what they want. Does that make them selfish and anti-compromise too?

So FD have not bowed to player pressure or taken player comments onboard ever? nonsense, they have in the past and hopefully they will in the future, a dev that fails to listen to it's userbase doesn't get very far.
Show me posts of Pro ADS people not willing to compromise. Your post is about as buttock backwards as it could possibly be and this thread is sadly proving it by the sheer amount of unreasonable anti ADS posters (IMO).

 

[CMDR Big Mike]

Yeah I have yet to see an argument calling for the ADS back that is NOT selfish, which per OP is not valid.

The game has changed, the choice to adapt or not is up to the player.

 

[babelfisch]

The FSS is just that teleport though, it's the EASIER option!

That depends on the goal. If you want to populate the system map the ADS is the easier option and that seems to be the number one reason why people want the ADS back. So no, the ADS is the easier option in regards to the topic.

 

[askavir]

Yeah I have yet to see an argument calling for the ADS back that is NOT selfish, which per OP is not valid.

Group 1 - People want an optional module back, without a single consequence or gameplay change to the people in group 2..
Group 2 - (some) People don't want the people in group 2 to get their thing, even though said thing doesn't affect people in group 2 one bit.

And yet you somehow are able to conclude it's the people in group 1 who are the ones being selfish

By all means, enlighten us in precisely what ways are we being selfish in this matter?

 

[askavir]

That depends on the goal. If you want to populate the system map the ADS is the easier option and that seems to be the number one reason why people want the ADS back. So no, the ADS is the easier option in regards to the topic.

For the people who want the ADS back, a populated system map is not an end or a goal in itself, but merely a starting point.

Additionally, the ADS may reveal the planet positions, but it does not grant any other benefit from it (neither credits, nor discovery tags, nor detailed information).

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

That depends on the goal. If you want to populate the system map the ADS is the easier option and that seems to be the number one reason why people want the ADS back. So no, the ADS is the easier option in regards to the topic.

Also how is the FSS a teleport. Does he think that zooming in on the planet with the FSS means you have now explored that planet. If so, that is delusional.

 

[OBYOZ]

<sigh> hard to be civil with snarky strawman stuff like this but I'll try, what you say are all "I win" stuff, bringing back the ADS is the OPPOSITE, please let that sink in a tad before your next post, TYVM

<Bigger sigh> The ADS is not the opposite. Maybe if you want an automatic scan then it's fair to say 15mins from honk too populate the bodies would be equivalent. TTFN.

 

[Old Duck]

How much sense makes the coexistence of the ADS and FSS lore / technology wise?

Lore / technology wise, Frontier kinda got things backwards. If we had the FSS first for all these years, Frontier could have introduced the ADS later as some sort of newly-discovered Guardian technology (requiring the appropriate grinding gameplay to unlock).

 

[CMDR Big Mike]

Group 1 - People want an optional module back, without a single consequence or gameplay change to the people in group 2..
Group 2 - People don't want the people in group 2 to get their thing, even though said thing doesn't affect people in group 2 one bit.

And yet you somehow are able to conclude it's the people in group 1 who are the ones being selfish

By all means, enlighten us in precisely what ways are we being selfish in this matter?

Per OP’s rules, group 1 is invalid. They want optional ADS back because they don’t like the FSS. It’s inherently selfish

 

[Leper Messiah]

Well if you INSIST:

The following is a prerecorded message in response to any and all threads that fall under the topic “The FSS Is $NEGATIVE_DESCRIPTION_OF_FSS_AND_RELATED_TOOLS”.

As a serious explorer, I personally love the FSS and related tools. When I drop out of hyperspace, I’m entering an entirely new and potentially undiscovered solar system. I mean, wow! Once I refuel my ship, I put a little distance between me and the star, then I “park” the ship, pop out of my pilot’s chair and go over to my science station (cue slide of Mr. Spock looking into his scanner). This is a seamless transition, like getting into my SRV.

This “science station” is the output of a visual, radio, and gravimetric telescope array built into my ship’s sensors. It sees 3D space around my ship, with the ability to zoom in and focus on specific objects in the solar system. In order to automatically focus in on a specific object (focusing over long distances is no trivial task), I need to match the frequency of the telescope’s focal algorithm to that of the planet or signal – the “tuning the dial” part of the procedure. This lets me zoom in and focus both optically and radiometricly to both “see” the planet and generate detailed statistics. Like Galileo, once I “discover” a planet using my telescope, I get credit for that discovery, assuming I’m the first.

Speaking of discovery, I really like that the system map remains unpopulated until I actually find, magnify, and catalog a planet. I was never a fan of the “Google Galaxy” map view we automatically were given with the ADS. That’s not discovery, that’s tourism.

Now I can continue to scan the entire system from this parked location, or I can choose to immediately go to a planet of interest and map it. One of the advantages of the latter is that my ship will automatically detect and catalog any planets nearby. So for example, if I select a gas giant with a dozen moons, I just need to scan the GG in the FSS, and then fly to the GG and the moons will be all scanned and cataloged using the close-range sensors, thus greatly reducing my time using the FSS. Not mandatory, but it’s a cool little trick for CMDRs who like having a reason to fly to planets to explore them.

I personally find the FSS very similar to real-life stargazing. I scan the sky IRL with my high-powered binoculars, finding planets and stars of interest, then crosscheck them using my astronomical software, which gives me a page of statistics. Then I can go visit them in my SUV….. Wait, forget that last part.

It is possible to be very fast and efficient using the FSS with practice. That said, I actually enjoy the extra time it takes me to scan and catalog a system, followed by mapping and even landing on planets of interest. It adds a sense of immersion, accomplishment, depth, and scale that was sorely lacking before 3.3 dropped.

That’s not to say I find the FSS and DSS to be perfect. I have a list of very minor changes and adjustments I’d like made to the FSS, DSS, and Analysis HUD. But I find the concepts Frontier implemented to be fun, engaging, immersive, brilliant!

Now there are those who want the old ADS back, or worse, want to integrate ADS functionality into the FSS for everyone. I would accept the ADS being brought back as the optional, expensive module that takes up an additional slot, just like it used to be, adding its features to the FSS when installed. The key word there is OPTIONAL.

This concludes my defense of the Full Spectrum System Scanner.​

I might have to program a macro for copying and pasting this! Seriously, we don't need yet another thread on the topic.

In my defence it's a thread specifically for those against a compromise to share their viewpoints in one place to collate, not seen one of those....you are willing to compromise (before the injury) so thread not aimed at you.

wait, a new ADS thread before the old one got locked? poor forum etiquette.

since I'm not anti-ADS, suppose I shouldn't be posting either.
...nothing to see here, move along.

as above the thread was about those against an ADS compromise to justify that stance, not seen a thread like that before.

Actually no, the various "compromises" are more a lose/lose than a win/win.

We're gamers. This is not the same as sportsmen. Along with "for the love of the game" there's this streak in all of us (even though some of us prefer to resist it) to zero in on the "best" technique to accomplish anything. Unfortunately in any compromise that allows both the old ADS functionality and the new FSS gameplay the "best" or "most efficient" approach to exploration would be neither fish nor fowl, using parts of one or the other's functionality. I can quite understand FD wanting to avoid that becoming the "norm" so ensured it would be a complete replacement of the ADS rather than attempting an incoherent phased approach or some hybrid.

Given that, however, it can never be a question of compromise. It can only be a choice between keeping the placeholder and introducing the new gameplay. And FD made their choice for their game.

I disagree, also why exactly is it bad for someone to use both ADS and FSS??

It is quite simple.
The FSS system opens up the gameplay to all people,
not just those fitting a DSS scanner.

The FSS overlay gives options to gameplay,
you can either look directly for specific objects,
scan the whole system and get info directly on screen
or even passively resolve the data by travelling through.

Especially checking USSes which now spawn new after
the initially generated USSes timed out with the FSS is a boon.

Indeed never siad anything about removing the FSS, thread is about those not wanting a compromise.

The ADS meant there was no process involved in exploring a system, if it returned, this would again be the case.

This design isn't great, as there is no actual "thing" to do in this part of the game.

If the ADS exists, this will always be the case from a design standpoint.

So my reason is, putting the ADS back in is moving backwards in design of the game.

Why? If the ADS returned I sure as hell wouldn't use it again it's boring, but others would why deny them JUSTIFY IT.

Don't like it don't use it.

If "like" or "dislike" aren't arguments, than what is this thread about?
I mean...this whole forum is just circling around personal opinions and sometimes technical issues. What would be left when not taking opinions in the pool?

12345 people like the ADS but 12345 people do not like the ADS is an absolute valuable argument and reasoning for me!!!

Because just saying "I dislike something" is not a reasonable way to go about things is it? There are a shed load of things "I" don't like, so should they all just go because "I" want it? That is the dictionary description of selfish and a selfish reason is a stupid reason.

 

[Aashenfox]

In my defence it's a thread specifically for those against a compromise to share their viewpoints in one place to collate, not seen one of those....you are willing to compromise (before the injury) so thread not aimed at you.



as above the thread was about those against an ADS compromise to justify that stance, not seen a thread like that before.



I disagree, also why exactly is it bad for someone to use both ADS and FSS??



Indeed never siad anything about removing the FSS, thread is about those not wanting a compromise.



Why? If the ADS returned I sure as hell wouldn't use it again it's boring, but others would why deny them JUSTIFY IT.

Don't like it don't use it.



Because just saying "I dislike something" is not a reasonable way to go about things is it? There are a shed load of things "I" don't like, so should they all just go because "I" want it? That is the dictionary description of selfish and a selfish reason is a stupid reason.





And how does bringing the ADS back WITH the FSS stop all that? answer it does not.

ah all this Elite not designed by commitee stuff again, so FD have made NO decision with feedback from the players then? not one....nadda, zilch.......incorrect, so Ashenfox's victory meme a tad too early



agreed, but why are you against others populating the system map quicker, how does it negatively affect you enough to feel (or not feel, not sure why your here!) that the ADS should stay gone?

It's never too early for cats looking like they're in a 2d brawler with a funny line underneath.

Regarding your response to design by committee, it's rather easy to turn that around on you with a far more laughable effect. Do you think they should listen to every crazy numpty's suggestions?

 

[Old Duck]

In my defence it's a thread specifically for those against a compromise to share their viewpoints in one place to collate, not seen one of those....

Well this is definitely a more civilized thread than most I've seen on the broader topic (for however long that lasts), so I'll give you that

I'm soon bowing out of this entire debate, having been rebuked the very institution I've been trying to defend, so you have the honor of "housing" the last copy of my little essay, LOL.