Am I right in boiling your issue down the the fact that the 'honk' no longer fills out the system map?
I get your point in this case, in as much as you are now forced to do more work to get what you used to get.
Anti ADS people JUSTIFY your no compromise stance here.
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Am I right in boiling your issue down the the fact that the 'honk' no longer fills out the system map?
I get your point in this case, in as much as you are now forced to do more work to get what you used to get.
so the only reason is "it takes longer" and you read all the post? ok....rooooooiiiiiiiiiiiight.
So a compromise with ADS is bad because "compromising" ITSELF is bad? hollee crud I've heard it all.
First, I am not sure if I am pro or contra a compromise. It probably depends on the implementation and the reasons for it. However, this makes me feel inclined towards no compromise:
If this can be adressed reasonably and if we can somehow find a compromise that doesn't involve the godlike power of the old system (because everything else would make the coexistence of both systems silly) I am eager to hear proposals.
Why do you not want the ADS to reveal the sys map though? Surely limited data is a fairer compromise, some have said black planets like when it went wrong, or wireframes, I think generic planet graphics would be best, but none at all? A bit harsh?
Sorry, that was just a hypothetical argument because the person I quoted said that revealing the system map would not be the goal of the ADS.
For my real reasons "against it" (not sure about that yet) see above.
That's why I said what I said, I created this thread specifically for the Anti ADS to get their points across didn't mean it to as snarky comment, just to the point and blunt (which is clearly my biggest problem online!)
lore wise, there are SO many inconsistencies in the Elite lore does everything "need" to make sense? Personally I'd have had the FSS just replace the old DSS mechanic which is what I think most people disliked. It makes sense as its getting a close up view of the planet via telescopes is it not? That would have kept almost everyone happy.....someones bound to chirp in with how that wouldn't work!
Hey, I agree 99% with you. Heck I even went out of my way to come up with a detailed proposal (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/467736-Exploration-Beyond-3-3) that would give you exactly what you want. Plus solving other people's issues too, while keeping the FSS as it is for people who want that. Got almost no responses and zero traction of course, because the only way to get things going here is by being contrarian and just generally disagreeable.
As for the advantage: as you say it evidently has an advantage to you (heck, why else would you ask for it?), and it has an advantage over others in rather niche situations. Obviously plenty of explorers care about getting their name on fancy and unique systems (not credits, but weird configurations and such). Your ADS would give you an advantage as you can screen systems faster, so per hour played you have a higher chance of finding such a rare system. To which extend that is important enough an argument to deny the ADS is an entirely different matter. Clearly, having written a detailed proposal where I give you what you want, I'm inclined to believe that this is an advantage I wouldn't be fundamentally opposed to. But I can also see why others might disagree with me on that.
The thing that annoys me is not that you want something diabolically and unspeakably evil or something. Not at all. What annoys me is the way some people go about it. Having a different opinion on what FD should spend their resources on doesnt make one selfish, or at least not any more selfish than anyone else. There are advantages to the ADS. Exploration has multiple in-game incentives for competitive elements. That doesnt make wanting the ADS back wrong, but people should be straight-forward about it without throwing others on ignore lists and yelling insults.
In the Dutch language we have a term called 'gun-factor'. It basically (and I dont have a translation for it) refers to the willingness of others to 'grant' you something. Some free sets of strings when buying a new guitar. A slightly more expansive company car. Generally just stuff that people arent entitled to, but can often get depending on their attitude and whether people like them. This discussion is very much about this gun-factor. Suppose the narrative was 'Hey guys! We dont really ask for much generally, but there is a small thing that would mean the world to us! It would barely take up much time from FD (but we do understand you all have stuff you want them to work on!), it would be completely optional and very very few people would really have an objective issue with it. Can we have it? We would really appreciate it!"
I am sure most of would shrug and say:"Its probably not much work for FD, so even though I personally would rather see them spend that week on something else I'm cool with you guys getting this.". But instead we get this spamming, whiny, dishonest, ignore-list nonsense that over time has resulted in people saying:"Screw you. I dont actually care too much but I just dont want you to have it.". Which is also petty as heck, but that is humans for you. As for me: my opinion is in the topic I created, but beyond that I am bored enough while I am in between projects to point out any inconsistencies.
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For my personal gameplay that would be acceptable. Not ideal, but better than no method to avoid the FSS.
To be clear, I'd like a System Map showing only mass, temperature and distance for bodies.
By adding mass and temperature to the pre-resolved body information in the FSS (Ziljian's idea I've stolen/modified) then the two systems display the same information (FSS already has distance) but in different formats. Alternatively (again Ziljian's idea, slightly modified) allow the FSS to be used to populate the System Map, WITHOUT resolving the body and showing the detailed body information.
Z's original post:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ADS-and-SLBS?p=7333272&viewfull=1#post7333272
Ah, I see. Not wishing to speak on their behalf but I think their point may be the use the system map to make choices about where to go in a system, so a visual guide is more important. I believe it is not just about ELWs and WW but more about the weird stuff the stellar forge spits out. Basically it's explorers who don't do it for cash but for "out of the ordinary" stuff, even if it has little in game value. Something many fail to understand (and I may be wrong!). The time spent faffing around with the FSS is time they feel could be better spent and added up over multiple systems looking for that special "needle in a haystack" it all adds up.
As I described in my topic (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/467736-Exploration-Beyond-3-3), that would satisfy the Drews but not the Ziggly Wigglies. Which is why a simple 'would this work?' always result in a 'kinda' but never a 'heck yeah!'. A real proposal is not that simple, unfortunately. So anyone looking for a real compromise needs to actually put some effort into it.
It's not just about the lore. Both systems coexisting but not affecting each other just doesn't make sense. That's like using the Pulse Wave for Mining, but in order to make use of it you would need to go back to SC for some odd reason. Probably not the best example but I hope you still get the point:
If the ADS can tell me the position of a specific body, why is that information not available to the FSS, which is installed on the same ship, probably using the same module? For you that problem doesn't exist, because it's what you want. But what about all the people who want the game to make sense?
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Just caught up on the overnight 'conversations' in this thread and a trend emerged.
The OP is very quick (and very frequent) to label anyone who doesn't want compromise to be selfish. Of course that is his opinion. But aren't those wanting (well some demanding) the ADS to be returned via this vaulted compromise (which compromise the OP has still failed to state, or how many compromises will be the end result) being entirely selfish in their requirements? THEY want the ADS back because it upsets THEIR way of playing, or THEY don't like the mechanics of the FSS, or THEY are incapable of working out the keybinds, or THEY are upset that that THEIR specific style of gameplay now takes longer. Every one of those arguments for the return of the ADS in some form are based 100% on selfish, individual reason.
The OP is very quick (and very frequent) to label anyone who doesn't want compromise to be selfish. Of course that is his opinion. But aren't those wanting (well some demanding) the ADS to be returned via this vaulted compromise (which compromise the OP has still failed to state, or how many compromises will be the end result) being entirely selfish in their requirements? THEY want the ADS back because it upsets THEIR way of playing, or THEY don't like the mechanics of the FSS, or THEY are incapable of working out the keybinds, or THEY are upset that that THEIR specific style of gameplay now takes longer. Every one of those arguments for the return of the ADS in some form are based 100% on selfish, individual reason.
Interesting, Bottom line is there are a LOT of clever people with damn good ideas about exploring, FD should have had an open discussion about what people wanted from a change to the Exploring mechanics and come up with something, not saying FD would have been able to implement every idea, but it would have given them a base line and an idea it was about the science as MUCH as the money!
The first idea sounds pretty good to me, it's just the FSS with additional information. I don't like the idea of using the system map, since that kind of invalidates the point of the FSS mode, why does the FSS mode exist in the first place when we could do the same action using the system map?
How about an (not) entirely different idea like removing both, the FSS and ADS functionality but adding a hybrid like you proposed to the orrey map?
Were you expecting people to suggest the restoration of the ADS despite them personally liking the FSS?
It would be some weird kind of person who offered up a compromise even though they had no interest in using it.
Kinda like this one...
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/467736-Exploration-Beyond-3-3
In that case I would consider the argument (just to be clear, I am talking about the argument that people aren't interested in revealing the system map) invalid. You can do the same using the FSS, it just takes longer. So the goal is still to get the system map immediately.
I must admit that I thought the demands on what to discuss placed by the OP at the start of the thread could be a little selfish.
Hey, dont muddy the water there pal. You are over there, I am over here and we are supposed to shout at each other.
*clears throat*
Who is a poopy-pants? YOU ARE!
Just using dictionary definitions, I'm blunt and to the point and it clearly winds people up the wrong way. But seeing as I added one of your concerns to the list means what, do I think you're selfish or not? It seems to me you think I do, but I added one of your concerns? hmmmmm.
This thread was never about deciding what that compromise is and I have let the frustration of strawman arguments and trying to steer it back on topic get to me a bit much. I tried to do a nice thread so people could concisely say their reasons beyond subjective opinion of why a compromise is a no no. It kept on getting derailed, seeing as that is a tactic for people not liking something on the net to destroy it I dunno, I suspect a few did that.
There does seem in some to be a shift towards compromise, it's for someone else to organise that as my head would explode if I tried to methinks. It's HARD to have so much negativity blasted at me!!
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Literally and exactly that. I'm fine with every aspect of the FSS system other than that and I've said this from day one of the reveal thread. The FSS is an improvement over the old detail scanning mechanic which could see you taking hours to scan a system with lots of bodies and distant secondary stars and the introduction of probes is fantastic in that they give us a way of finding things that you'd previously have had to fly over planets using the mk1 eyeball to locate (and I did enough of that looking for the INRA bases in Hawkins' Gap to last me a lifetime).
Having to about in a 2d minigame spending time to get information that I then discover I didn't actually care about to begin with is bunk though, for me at least. Like I said I completely fail to grasp why just wanting a fast yet basic overview of a system has suddenly become on a par with wanting the moon on a stick in some people's eyes. I could perhaps understand it if we'd never had that functionality to begin with but we did, right up to a month ago.
I know some people's issue with the FSS is based in not having to actually fly their ships to planets to scan them but I'm not particularly concerned about that; I would be if the time taken to get the info using the FSS was the same as the old detail scan but obviously it's actually incomparably faster, which is a good thing in my own opinion - it's not an immersion thing for me at all.
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