Bullet Sponge NPCs - Does Anyone Enjoy This?

[Stinja]

Yeah I think NPCs should follow the same rules (physics, flight mechanics, outfitting) as players. To make them more challenging, give them engineering, and/or improve their AI.
But do not cheat and buff the numbers to give more "challenge".

I wish i'd saved it, but this morning was in the Omega HasREZ in my explorer-combat Krait (1200Mj shields, 2x lightweight MCs, 1xpulse, 2 medium beam), and had a wing of 3 adders. One was Elite and two dangerous, the Elite adder took a ridiculous amount of damage, I was thinking the game glitched and hits weren't registering, but it's hull was slowly ticking down.
The dangerous adders seemed normal, and later an Expert clipper also seemed normal, and took far less than the adder to kill. Adder.

It's a real pity the Mamba wasn't sized between the SLFs and sidewinder, and we could fight a dozen of them at once. Otherwise wing-assassination level vettes would be nice to run into occasionally in RES sites: with a suitable warning it's more dangerous than a regular vette, so people know to be more cautious.

 

[Alwayslate]

One thing I noticed is that seeker missiles used by NPCs in CZs are killing a lot of hardpoints. Npcs with 0 integrity hardpoints still kick, but not with much firepower. Then they will be taken down by more seekers. [SUB]Those point defense turrts are for nothing good but only work on my dumbfire missiles. May the far god take them away. [/SUB]

 

[Cmdr Nemo]

What's up with all the ramming that seems to be going on. I could understand if as a last ditch effort to defend ones self. But recently, it's been happening to me more and more even when it's far from being over. I've had a number of ships all of which were NPC's. Which rammed me over and over until they destroyed themselves.

I've also noticed that NPC's never seem to run out of shield cell banks. I've had cases where an NPC Sidewinder regardless of the pilots status, rebuild his/her shields 5, 6 times. As well as other NPC's.

 

[Alwayslate]

Do you think those are people who don't own Horizons?

Personally, I think it'd be a great idea if FDev consolidated ED and Horizons simply because it'd mean they wouldn't have to worry about catering to both Horizons and non-Horizons owners when developing future content.

We have threat level system now and I think it works quite well. If only they apply this to CZs or RESs and balance it instead of treating them the same.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

Going for the easier low CZ? I made 300k credits for 8 ships. Math says that's about 29 ships to make the 1 million credits...which is after taking out 50 ships for Juryi Ishmaak's second requirement. Add twice or more the amount of time taking out those NPC hulls.

Fact is with an unengineered ship it's an aggro game with NPCs initial match ups and localizations leading the result of how easy a CZ is to farm. Also low CZ will mean enemy ships sparsely spawns and can aggro you hard.

But feel free to savewipe your game so you can approach a new user experience to prove your point then. Lol.

 

[Jukelo]

As a matter of verisimilitude, I like that NPCs have access to the same tools we do.

I also like that this highlights some of the issues with Engineers.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

That thread was created by people 'concerned' on behalf of the mythical non-horizons owners, none of them actually don't have it.

I love it when you pull facts out of thin air like that you know.

 

[BDelacroix]

Differences in kind are always a lot more enjoyable than differences in scale but a lot harder to do.

 

[Stigbob]

I love it when you pull facts out of thin air like that you know.

The question came up in that thread. Everyone in that thread has horizons, it was just the usual suspects scraping the bottom of the barrel.

 

[Andovar]

Couldn't they 'mix' the two?

For CZ's, keep them as the war of attrition for BGS purposes, and have RES sites and CNB's populated with some wings of high-DPS low-HP opponents. I realize that killing ships in RES or CNB also affects the BGS, but couldn't they could tweak the values where the ship-kills impact has a higher value in CZ's?

(jeez, way too many acronyms in my post )

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

The question came up in that thread. Everyone in that thread has horizons, it was just the usual suspects scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Doesn't make Elite players not owning Horizons "mythical" I'm afraid.

*obvious smiley face*

 

[Stigbob]

Doesn't make Elite players not owning Horizons "mythical" I'm afraid.

*obvious smiley face*

It does unless there are some here, which given they don't post even in "give everyone horizons" concern threads seems unlikely.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

It does unless there are some here, which given they don't post even in "give everyone horizons" concern threads seems unlikely.

No Stig I'm sorry it doesnt. You need to learn that things dont disappear from existence when you close your eyes. I'm sure it'll bring you closure on a daily basis. Now we can nitpick on one word from my initial post ad nauseam, I could show you data from steam app and we could derail the thread to player retention, but it wont be as effective as you taking a good night of rest. So let's stay on topic.

 

[Stealthie]

Couldn't they 'mix' the two?

For CZ's, keep them as the war of attrition for BGS purposes, and have RES sites and CNB's populated with some wings of high-DPS low-HP opponents. I realize that killing ships in RES or CNB also affects the BGS, but couldn't they could tweak the values where the ship-kills impact has a higher value in CZ's?

I might be wrong but I think that is how things are.

Bursting NPCs at a CNB for mat's doesn't seem to be any harder than before.
It's only in CZ's that the ships weild their cloak of invincibility.

Just yesterday I did a couple of cargo missions which had chains of 4 Elite Annie's coming after me and all they managed to do was provide me with a nice little pile of mat's.

The Annies in CZ's definitely seem to be able to soak up more damage than those you're likely to encounter more routinely.
Which, I suppose, isn't completely implausible.
Ships are going to war so they get tooled-up with superior defences.
Fair enough, I suppose, but from a gameplay POV it doesn't really add much.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Couldn't they 'mix' the two?

For CZ's, keep them as the war of attrition for BGS purposes, and have RES sites and CNB's populated with some wings of high-DPS low-HP opponents. I realize that killing ships in RES or CNB also affects the BGS, but couldn't they could tweak the values where the ship-kills impact has a higher value in CZ's?

(jeez, way too many acronyms in my post )

My experience is that RES and CNB combat hasn't changed significantly, if at all. The ships are possibly slightly tankier, but if so, I've barely noticed. With regard to CZs, a single sortie in a RES results in a single transaction of a set value. With the CZ objectives (take out spec-ops, destroy enemy captain, rout cap-ship, attack/defend warzone reporters, win the zone), it's possible to turn one sortie into multiple transactions, while still maintaining a single transaction if you get chased out.

So yeah, the devs could mix the two. In fact, they did.

 

[Andovar]

I might be wrong but I think that is how things are.

Bursting NPCs at a CNB for mat's doesn't seem to be any harder than before.
It's only in CZ's that the ships weild their cloak of invincibility.

Just yesterday I did a couple of cargo missions which had chains of 4 Elite Annie's coming after me and all they managed to do was provide me with a nice little pile of mat's.

The Annies in CZ's definitely seem to be able to soak up more damage than those you're likely to encounter more routinely.
Which, I suppose, isn't completely implausible.
Ships are going to war so they get tooled-up with superior defences.
Fair enough, I suppose, but from a gameplay POV it doesn't really add much.

My experience is that RES and CNB combat hasn't changed significantly, if at all. The ships are possibly slightly tankier, but if so, I've barely noticed. With regard to CZs, a single sortie in a RES results in a single transaction of a set value. With the CZ objectives (take out spec-ops, destroy enemy captain, rout cap-ship, attack/defend warzone reporters, win the zone), it's possible to turn one sortie into multiple transactions, while still maintaining a single transaction if you get chased out.

So yeah, the devs could mix the two. In fact, they did.

and that's what I get for posting without knowing the details.
sounds like a good setup to me. well done FD. [up]

 

[Stigbob]

No Stig I'm sorry it doesnt. You need to learn that things dont disappear from existence when you close your eyes. I'm sure it'll bring you closure on a daily basis. Now we can nitpick on one word from my initial post ad nauseam, I could show you data from steam app and we could derail the thread to player retention, but it wont be as effective as you taking a good night of rest. So let's stay on topic.

Don't get sniffy about derails you started and can't provide any sources for.

 

[MrFailfactory]

As I metnioned on the discord and will state here for public evaluation...While I agree that bullet sponges aren't the only way or the best way to accomplish a difficulty hike; compared to what we had before, yes, I enjoy the new CZs more.

CZs aren't a place to just go shoot a few NPCs and collect a few credits, that's what RES and CNBs are for. CZs are the place where BGS wars are won and lost. There are two important things that the new system promotes...

1) It means that a few casual pilots who aren't BGS specialists, jumping in and killing a few ships for a laugh, is unlikely to be critical in the outcome of a war if BGS players are putting dedicated effort in. In the past, CZs were easy enough that a group just having an afternoon in a CZ could have a strong effect on the war.
2) New pilots with less well equipped ships and or less developed skills, are rightly and properly, not able to keep up with CZ monsters such as those that we employ when we want to actually win a conflict.

Essentially, conflict zones are not just toys and should not be accessible to 'just any' player. I like that they have now shifted toward being an end game activity. But once again, yes, bullet sponges seems a little unimaginative. But I'm loathe to complain, as they're so much better than what we had. When FD irons out the details of the mechanics, I'll be really happy with them, bullet sponges and all.

Bolded section: since I don't BGS, am I correct in assuming that you are referring to players here, or do you actually mean through your BGS efforts you are able to affect the quality of NPC spawns to tilt the war in your favor?

Thanks.

Riôt

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Thanks for all your replies!

I've only recently started doing dedicated BGS work with my Squadron, and I still don't understand it, I'm just following orders. Lol

That said, IF FD were to reduce the "sponginess" of the NPC's, by say, half, then double the amount of NPC's in a CZ, plus put groups of CZ NPCs into wings, that would actually make CZs more difficult, aka, more towards "end game".
Numbers for wins and whatnot would need to be tweaked for BGS purposes, but that's way beyond me.

But the end result would still be tough enemies, with more firepower, and more organized, so still geared towards end game, but without the seemingly eternal TTKs. Lol

Imagine how dangerous a Spec Ops team would be, if they showed up in a wing, programmed to defend one another, and coordinate attacks more effectively, instead of wandering off by themselves.

Flying in a CZ would then be a test of your situational awareness, and tactical thinking, as well as your flying, and ship building skills, and you'd be slightly higher rewarded by faster TTKs, but you'd be neck deep in intense combat, and punished more aggressively for mistakes.

NPC's may still be relatively dumb, but with wings added in, they'd feel more organized, and the battle will quickly evolve.

Right now, in a late game ship (heavy HP engineering, good DPS), you can safely ignore what's going on around you while you spend a few minutes pummeling a single NPC.

 

[Blightedmythos]

We have three types of rez and combat zones that are suppose to reflect difficulty and rewards. We should scale them accordingly. Leave the engineered ships in the hazard res and high conflict zones but increase rewards to compensate. Make low rez and such easier for new poilet but decrease rewards. Easy fix.