NPC piracy is gone away, what to do now?

[Six6VI]

./tinfoilon

Would it not be easier to just board the ship, apprehend the pilot and eject all the cargo?

We haven't seen a module that goes in the SRV size bay and provides a boarding tunnel yet, but Sandro seemed pretty excited about that kind of mechanic being added. Legs on ships only might provide for other commanders to be invited aboard your ship instead of or, with the two via telepresence and SLF NPC.

If the target difficulty is scaled by their level in any kind of predictable way this might add a valuable PvE training path for the budding pirate, crew or wing. One SLF to obstruct escape and handle defenses while the gunner cripples the engines (Drag 2.0) and the helm deals with shields and positioning the gantry.

Alternatively we might get powered flight and storage packs, with pips. Handy on atmospherics...

[Is this "training" for commandeering squadron carriers and cap ships? Meta = BCR / hour?]

Edit: When can we clean the 'hot' ship tags, or redistribute the modules at our surface base?

./tinfoiloff

 

[Melanthes]

There is a way to stop drifting ships, but it takes some training to apply it regularly. Since NPCs below competent don't reboot, you can easily train it in anarchy systems.
When the ships drives are destroyed, it will drift in one direction. Instead of using hatchbreakers, try matching it's speed carefully and get a little bit ahead of the ship. Switch to FAoff to turn around or to position your ship so that it's broadest side is turned toward the drifting ship. The hardest part is to get in front of the ship while maintaining the direction. When you're there enable FA and throttle to zero immediately. The other ship will crash into yours, but won't take much damage, since your velocity matches it. This will slow the other ship down and it will most likely start to tumble. If you're lucky, the ships velocity is already slow enough to plunder it, otherwise repeat the manoeuvre. The only problem is, if you hit the ship from the side it will just behave like a pinball and only change the direction.
Obviously the "Oil tanker" view of the corvette helps to see what you are doing. A Krait on the other hand will probably find this more difficult.

 

[Marra Morgan]

You turned NPC piracy from something fun and relaxing

Piracy should never be relaxing.

 

[Old Duck]

I dont think running away is the sane thing to do tho, if your in a t7 or even a t9 a vette or annie can shread your shields and hull befor you can run. So running is guaranteed death. So the logical thing to do is turn and shoot the in a futile act of defiance as they empty your hold.

Is this what you do when interdicted by an NPC pirate in your T7 - turn and shoot in a futile act of defiance? I run, and I almost always escape. If it looks like I'm not going to make it, then I give the pirates what they want (which is something we can both agree on - NPCs should drop cargo like they used to when their hulls approach critical). Of course if I'm in a well-equipped T9 with SLF and a couple of Eagles try to pirate me, then I fight.

I know I'm just repeating myself, but NPCs should behave like most CMDRs would in similar scenarios. Try PvP piracy and see what a CMDR does in their T7 or T9. From what I'm reading in this thread, most "pirates" just want to be able to farm NPCs like fish in a barrel. I don't find that to be compelling gameplay, and I'm not alone.

I do admit that PvP piracy gives us an extra tool that NPC piracy does not - the ability to communicate. I sure wish ED provided "macros" for things like this. Basically give us a menu button for "Demand Cargo" and allow us to program the exact message that's sent, but since it's a "Demand Cargo" button, NPCs would understand what we want, and perhaps comply when the odds are against them!

 

[Tarman]

Is this what you do when interdicted by an NPC pirate in your T7 - turn and shoot in a futile act of defiance? I run, and I almost always escape. If it looks like I'm not going to make it, then I give the pirates what they want (which is something we can both agree on - NPCs should drop cargo like they used to when their hulls approach critical). Of course if I'm in a well-equipped T9 with SLF and a couple of Eagles try to pirate me, then I fight.

I know I'm just repeating myself, but NPCs should behave like most CMDRs would in similar scenarios. Try PvP piracy and see what a CMDR does in their T7 or T9. From what I'm reading in this thread, most "pirates" just want to be able to farm NPCs like fish in a barrel. I don't find that to be compelling gameplay, and I'm not alone.

I do admit that PvP piracy gives us an extra tool that NPC piracy does not - the ability to communicate. I sure wish ED provided "macros" for things like this. Basically give us a menu button for "Demand Cargo" and allow us to program the exact message that's sent, but since it's a "Demand Cargo" button, NPCs would understand what we want, and perhaps comply when the odds are against them!

Get in your time machine (which I see you've been using to mess around with your regenerations AGAIN - personally I liked the Delgado but you were only in that for like a week), go back, have hollow squares removed, and have the Mistress spin us up some believable pretend people. Add as much persistence as possible. Give us a comms wheel with enough response types to create interesting interactions with any given NPC vessel.

We must also kill many of that era's whiners to prevent the backlash from the AI acting in its own believable self-interests depending on situation; you know, the crowd who were disappointed when ships fled because they have the standard FPS/MMO mentality of "NPCs fite to death always, that is of gaem".

Hopefully these simple steps can provide a game with a more cohesive fake populace that acts generally like people.

 

[Old Duck]

Get in your time machine (which I see you've been using to mess around with your regenerations AGAIN - personally I liked the Delgado but you were only in that for like a week), go back, have hollow squares removed, and have the Mistress spin us up some believable pretend people. Add as much persistence as possible. Give us a comms wheel with enough response types to create interesting interactions with any given NPC vessel.

Delgado was in response to my utter frustration with this latest update, UNTIL this thread. The Mistress has restored at least a little of my hope in the game, because I was one of the ones, like you, asking for more realistic NPCs. This change in AI behavior goes a long way to creating a living, believable galaxy.

As for persistent NPCs, I have a feeling that's out of even MoM's reach right now, as I suspect that will require some deeper recoding of the game - perhaps when "New Era" arrives!

We must also kill many of that era's whiners to prevent the backlash from the AI acting in its own believable self-interests depending on situation; you know, the crowd who were disappointed when ships fled because they have the standard FPS/MMO mentality of "NPCs fite to death always, that is of gaem".

That's why I'm so active in this thread (and thankfully so are others), to show Frontier that the "whiners" do not speak for all of us. I'm not too worried about this change being reverse - the removal of the ADS had way more backlash with far more reasonable arguments for its return, and yet Frontier is standing firm in their decision.

However, I'm okay with some tweaks to the "new piracy" for the purpose of gameplay. One example would be having NPCs reduce speed to a very slow tumbling drift when their thrusters are disabled. Either that or give us grappling hooks or a "grappling limpet" that we can use to grab a drifting NPC and bring it to a stop.

 

[Tarman]

Delgado was in response to my utter frustration with this latest update, UNTIL this thread. The Mistress has restored at least a little of my hope in the game, because I was one of the ones, like you, asking for more realistic NPCs. This change in AI behavior goes a long way to creating a living, believable galaxy.

As for persistent NPCs, I have a feeling that's out of even MoM's reach right now, as I suspect that will require some deeper recoding of the game - perhaps when "New Era" arrives!

That's why I'm so active in this thread (and thankfully so are others), to show Frontier that the "whiners" do not speak for all of us. I'm not too worried about this change being reverse - the removal of the ADS had way more backlash with far more reasonable arguments for its return, and yet Frontier is standing firm in their decision.

However, I'm okay with some tweaks to the "new piracy" for the purpose of gameplay. One example would be having NPCs reduce speed to a very slow tumbling drift when their thrusters are disabled. Either that or give us grappling hooks or a "grappling limpet" that we can use to grab a drifting NPC and bring it to a stop.

Yeah, I don't hold out much hope for the game I wanted this to be in 2014, but it's still turned out to be a good game. It can still be better than what it is, though.

I pity the people who just want targets rather than blame them for their disconnect in experience; I blame most other games, which teach you that anything that is notyou is your enemy, and will fite until one of you are dead. Very very few games have enemies that actively try to escape when you lay the hurt on them. Even Elite seems to be moving away from an experiential-based gameplay idea on more than a few fronts.

OMG moar limpets! You are the devil. You can only have stabilizer limpets once we have a master controller unit. Man, soooo many cool ideas in Elite hinge on other ideas also being included. There are few one-stop-shopping solutions to what we want as players.

 

[Barlog M.]

I know I'm just repeating myself, but NPCs should behave like most CMDRs would in similar scenarios.

Disconnect. Play Solo. Use cheats. Swear in chat.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Yeah, I don't hold out much hope for the game I wanted this to be in 2014, but it's still turned out to be a good game. It can still be better than what it is, though.

I pity the people who just want targets rather than blame them for their disconnect in experience; I blame most other games, which teach you that anything that is notyou is your enemy, and will fite until one of you are dead. Very very few games have enemies that actively try to escape when you lay the hurt on them. Even Elite seems to be moving away from an experiential-based gameplay idea on more than a few fronts.

OMG moar limpets! You are the devil. You can only have stabilizer limpets once we have a master controller unit. Man, soooo many cool ideas in Elite hinge on other ideas also being included. There are few one-stop-shopping solutions to what we want as players.

I totally agree with NPC's acting in context .. but rather than pure fight or flight there needs to be a stand and deliver communication and depending on your CMDRs reputation they react accordingly. IF I was in open and was fortunate to be pulled by a pirate and I was in a trade ship I may try and run but with ways to disrupt my FSD etc the reality is it would probably be safer to drop some cargo esp if their demands were sensible. NPCs should be the same.
IF you have a reputation for blindly blowing up innocent ships then ships would be more likely to take their chances and flee. (This should mean your rep as a pirate is poor)

 

[Tarman]

I totally agree with NPC's acting in context .. but rather than pure fight or flight there needs to be a stand and deliver communication and depending on your CMDRs reputation they react accordingly. IF I was in open and was fortunate to be pulled by a pirate and I was in a trade ship I may try and run but with ways to disrupt my FSD etc the reality is it would probably be safer to drop some cargo esp if their demands were sensible. NPCs should be the same.
IF you have a reputation for blindly blowing up innocent ships then ships would be more likely to take their chances and flee. (This should mean your rep as a pirate is poor)

The more context the better; this ties in heavily to having a better comms wheel for major NPC interaction types (Threaten, Assist, Insult, Offer Wing Services, etc).

Adding better NPC/CMDR interactions or better NPC situational and per-player-status reactions, would each improve the game; but if they could be introduced together and integrated as possible then this would really make these concepts shine.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

Is this what you do when interdicted by an NPC pirate in your T7 - turn and shoot in a futile act of defiance?

What I do when I'm interdicted by an NPC in my T7 or T9, is turn, kill and take the bounty.

 

[Red Anders]

Ah, I see. Not that it's my thing, but it would seem to me that anything that makes it a bit more challenging would be welcome and fun.

Haha did you forget which forum you were posting on there for a minute?

 

[Old Duck]

Disconnect. Play Solo. Use cheats. Swear in chat.

Yeah, even as I typed that I almost deleted it and changed it to "pilots flying real ships". In fact in some post (maybe in this thread, can't remember) I stated that NPCs shouldn't behave as people playing a video game, as many people playing a game behave very differently than they would if said game were real life instead. This is actually one of the reasons I don't like typical MMOs, because players often take away from the "game world" (many MMOs remind me of the Amazing Race) rather than add to it.

So what I really meant to say was, "NPCs should behave like CMDR Old Duck would in similar scenarios", LOL

 

[Barlog M.]

So what I really meant to say was, "NPCs should behave like CMDR Old Duck would in similar scenarios", LOL

If NPC behaves like Old Duck and swears in chat like Old Duck, than shoot it!

Behavior of Old Duck, if hi is not an AI, depends on his body chemical balance, weather, political news, that he heard recently and a ton of other factors. And it hardly predictable.
Behavior of NPC should fit game situation and should be predictable. Strict rules is main point why people escape from reality in games like Elite Dangerous.

 

[Brrokk]

I think I've put 2 and 2 together. What if the drag effect which has turned out so bad for PvP was meant to coincide with better NPC algorithms to make piracy more interesting? Balancing such disparate things can't be easy.

 

[Barlog M.]

I think I've put 2 and 2 together. What if the drag effect which has turned out so bad for PvP was meant to coincide with better NPC algorithms to make piracy more interesting? Balancing such disparate things can't be easy.

Drag Munition prevents boosting, not moving, and not using FSD. And i'm not sure that can affect NPC at all.

 

[Old Duck]

Behavior of NPC should fit game situation and should be predictable.

TL;DR - nothing I haven't said before in this thread (feel free to skip).

Predictable as in situation-based behavior, not predictable in the typical computer AI "all enemies fly exactly the same way in all ships and all scenarios" way that ED used to be like. And within that predictability, a little bit of uncertainty would be welcome. So for example, a Beluga full of passengers should run, not fight, because the captain's goal is to protect his passengers, and we know many passengers are adverse to hull damage. However, should every Beluga drop mines? I don't think so.

Also, should a Beluga with an SLF and decent defense weapons run away from a single Sidewinder? I don't think so. However, I do think that Beluga should still be outfitted like passenger ship, not a warship. Before the update, Belugas were armed with fixed weapons and SCBs and flying like Viper pilots. I don't think any NPC Belugas, except maybe the Elite ones, should be armed or fly like this. I can see them having a combination of turrets and mines, weapons they can deploy as they flee, but I do think NPCs should be predictable in their goals - protecting their passengers, their cargo, and their ships, using the most logical, effective means with some randomization thrown in. One such "randomization" might be a Type-6 going into SR and popping a chaff and heatsink (annoying but realistic) while charging the FSD.

All that said, I'm not expecting NPCs to be as clever as CMDRs. This is why we have PvP! If every Type-6 miner runs away when I attack them, I'm okay with that. I much prefer this than for them to shoot at my BattleConda while I just sit back, shield tank, and "milk" their cargo. Milking is for dairy farmers, not pirates. Heck, if players want "easy mode" milking, then let lower-ranking NPCs drop cargo after you get their shields down (mix in those mines, however, as that is just epic). Your money or your life, as the gansta say!

 

[Mohr]

Piracy should never be relaxing.

But video games should be. Some of us get enough realism at work all day.

 

[Melanthes]

But video games should be. Some of us get enough realism at work all day.

Maybe, but there is quite a lot of space trucking and mining already in the game, which are peaceful ways of money making. The illegal combat path to money on the other hand should have some challenging gameplay. The shield tanking piracy was in itself a way of using a bugged A.I..

There are also players faced with reality, who relax through challenging stuff.

 

[Ouberos]

But video games should be. Some of us get enough realism at work all day.

Other video games are available.

The shield tank diamond mining mechanic wasn't even gameplay. Shoot once. Spam Limpets. It led to people engaging in Piracy who clearly aren't cut out for it.

Prove me wrong, keep changing tactics until you figure it out.