Allow use of pre 3.3 Advanced Discovery Scanner

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Aside from loading the nav computer with distance and direction vectors, basic body information, a graphical representation of each body and an indication of whether a body had been previously discovered, filling out the system map was clearly not the "only" thing the xDS did.

What exactly do you want back - the xDS functionality as it was pre 3.3 or your description of only placing bodies on the system map? Because those are two different things.

Personally, I want bodies placed in the System Map/Nav Panel, so that I can target them for 'discovery by flying around'. I don't care too much about the System Map representation of the bodies - black balls would be fine for me.
However, other people are exploring in a different way and have different requirements.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

What abscence? I told you, there are example of modules that make a small sector of the playerbase unhappy and nothing terrible happens, that's the fact.

Are you talking about the ADC. Well thats a completely different scenario and you are correct. Nothing really happens because it's such a minor part of the game. It's inconsequential.

That is not a good example. As I said it's biased so therefore subjective.

 

[ThatSmileyGuy]

What exactly do you want back - the xDS functionality as it was pre 3.3 or your description of only placing bodies on the system map?

Exactly that. Body placement. See Marx's post within this thread. He goes to a great length to explain the motivation behind this request. Pardon me that i won't supply You for now with the post number.

You can. Run the FSS and populate the system map.

Look, again. I don't dislike FSS. Let's start off with that. It's a great tool and the closest we've come to an actual "mechanic" in terms of exploration.
You sure can do anything You could back with ADS in place.
The thing is, again, as described many times, that for one there is additional time investment into doing something many don't find appealing / immersive / fun by force.

For those who like cherry picking and going hunting for ELWs FSS is a great tool. You can see what's in the system right from the get-go. Not to mention being able to scan it from the entry point.

Why would one like to have map revealed? Allow me to explain. Back in the pre 3.3 time certain players found out that they are dissatisfied with seeing the same configurations over and over again. See one glowing gas giants see them all. What else remained mouthwatering in the game? Configurations. Seeing bodies in extraordinary orbits. Maybe there are moon in close orbits with eachother, a star and gas giant at that? All close to to the main star. Maybe black hole orbited by white dwarf in "close" proximity. You never know what Stellar Forge comes up with. So those players went seeking just that. Jump into the system. Honk. Is the system worth staying in? No? On to the next one. All done while scooping and then charging the FSD. Covering far greater distances than they can do now. And as You may have guessed, seeking to find these systems is no easy feat. Since the genertion is to a degree random and there are 400 billion star systems to see. We'll never get to see it all. Now this group of players is forced to scan every system whether it's interesting or not. So as You may imagine too this cumulative time results in greater levels of dissatisfaction. Not everyone is keen on finding ELWs and being enthusiastic about being the first to do so. Everyone can play differently with different goals in mind.

Another group of players played by certain set of self imposed rules. People would go on tagging only the systems they found interesing using all or nothing method. Now to see what's in the system they are obliged to have it tagged(no, self destruct is not an option).

I may have misjudged You based on Your style of writing. Maybe You are more eccentric than salty. Who knows. It's easy to aim and fire words at one another through internet.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

1º I said that if the number of players who return to ED outnumber the players who leave because of the re-introduction of the ADS, that would be a consideranly objective good (because FD would win more money).

2º Max said that wasn't objective and that I had no facts to back it up.

3º I told him that similar things have happened before and FD didn't regret it.

4º He kept claiming I had no facts and that 1º wasn't objective.

The rest is history...

You still have no facts to back it up, unless can you look into the future. Also your example is flawed and biased, making it subjective.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Anyway. I'm outa this. I have just had to bury my cat who was killed last night. I'm not in a good emotional state for this crap. Latters.

 

[biot]

Personally, I want bodies placed in the System Map/Nav Panel, so that I can target them for 'discovery by flying around'. I don't care too much about the System Map representation of the bodies - black balls would be fine for me.
However, other people are exploring in a different way and have different requirements.

I personally don't have a problem with that suggestion. This thread does demonstrate though there is a degree of variation in what people want restored to enable their preferred gameplay.

I made a suggestion (possibly earlier in this thread, can't remember which one it was) about restoring the ADS but with one change - the time taken for the map to be populated would differ based on complexity of the system. That would have been the only difference in what the ADS did compared to its original incarnation. But that was objectionable to some which indicated (to me at least) that their personal requirement was not merely a matter of getting the system map populated but retaining the invariant speed at which it was done. Which I can see if that speed factor was a primary desire to restore the old ADS then my suggestion was not going to be attractive. Fair enough. For others it may have been acceptable.

I don't make a judgement on whether those opinions are right or wrong because fundamentally gameplay is a subjective experience so there is no right or wrong. But it does illustrate the difficulty of getting something consistent and acceptable to all out of this discussion. Unfortunately after the many threads on this I don't see much progress on that front.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

Anyway. I'm outa this. I have just had to bury my cat who was killed last night. I'm not in a good emotional state for this crap. Latters.

You have my sympathy I'm a cat person myself, we have two now as we lost one a few months back.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Are you talking about the ADC. Well thats a completely different scenario and you are correct. Nothing really happens because it's such a minor part of the game. It's inconsequential.

That is not a good example. As I said it's biased so therefore subjective.

As you say, it's inconsequential and so is the ADS since you don't have to use it. That's the relevant part of the precedent.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

You still have no facts to back it up, unless can you look into the future. Also your example is flawed and biased, making it subjective.

Ermm, that example was a fact and I don't see how it is "biased" but hey, surely you can show us the neutral side of things in that particular case.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Anyway. I'm outa this. I have just had to bury my cat who was killed last night. I'm not in a good emotional state for this crap. Latters.

Sorry to hear that Max

 

[ThatSmileyGuy]

If the ADS were exploration

What exactly do you want back - the xDS functionality as it was pre 3.3 or your description of only placing bodies on the system map?

Here is the promised post, biot. Sterling have a look too.
Post by Marx # 295

Ermm, that example was a fact and I don't see how it is "biased" but hey, surely you can show us the neutral side of things in that particular case.

I think it's tough situation to handle. For one You can't prove that, since unless such thing occurs and we get official statement from FD. Then again, if gains are greater than losses it logicaly would be a positive outcome. Right? Let's not argue about this though. I'm getting the feeling it's going a bit off-topic.

On a side note: Thank You, Moderator for a little cleanup and helping this thread look more civil.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I personally don't have a problem with that suggestion. This thread does demonstrate though there is a degree of variation in what people want restored to enable their preferred gameplay.

I made a suggestion (possibly earlier in this thread, can't remember which one it was) about restoring the ADS but with one change - the time taken for the map to be populated would differ based on complexity of the system. That would have been the only difference in what the ADS did compared to its original incarnation. But that was objectionable to some which indicated (to me at least) that their personal requirement was not merely a matter of getting the system map populated but retaining the invariant speed at which it was done. Which I can see if that speed factor was a primary desire to restore the old ADS then my suggestion was not going to be attractive. Fair enough. For others it may have been acceptable.

I don't make a judgement on whether those opinions are right or wrong because fundamentally gameplay is a subjective experience so there is no right or wrong. But it does illustrate the difficulty of getting something consistent and acceptable to all out of this discussion. Unfortunately after the many threads on this I don't see much progress on that front.

I vaguely recall your 'delayed discovery' post, but not the exact details.

I (again, me, personally) would be happy with an ADS honk that took longer to detect more distant bodies so that nearby bodies show up almost immediately, but Hutton would take a couple of minutes - kinda like the X4 honk, if you've played that. I could start my decision making process from the nearby objects, flying to the ones I'm interested in and waiting for other ones to show up.

There's always pushback against further penalties to a restored ADS (beyond weight and power consumption) because they usually don't have any reason for existing - they're simply there so that people who like the FSS can feel that their system is 'the bestest'. As I said, I don't recall the details of your post so I'm not accusing you of this. I see a delayed response from distant bodies making sense for a lore/science perspective, whilst not interfering significantly with the gameplay. I'd actually say the FSS should work that way too

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Anyway. I'm outa this. I have just had to bury my cat who was killed last night. I'm not in a good emotional state for this crap. Latters.

Take your time.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

I think it's tough situation to handle. For one You can't prove that, since unless such thing occurs and we get official statement from FD. Then again, if gains are greater than losses it logicaly would be a positive outcome. Right? Let's not argue about this though. I'm getting the feeling it's going a bit off-topic.

On a side note: Thank You, Moderator for a little cleanup and helping this thread look more civil.

I'm gonna limit myself to say that FD introduces modules quite commonly, if that had an overall negative result I doubt they'd keep doing that.

 

[Burke]

condolences max

 

[biot]

I can't remember if I mentioned it at the time but my thinking on the delayed reveal for a reinstated ADS is that it would address a major anomaly of the old ADS with respect to the gameplay loop. For example, if I can kill X pirates in an hour I could reasonably expect, all things being equal, that it would take 2 hours to kill 2X pirates. Similarly with mining for X tonnes in a hour, or prospecting for X materials etc.

I've always felt it was bonkers that the ADS could analyze and model a system of 70+ bodies in the same amount of time to model a system with a single body. I don't think it is accidental that it was called the "God honk". The introduction of the FSS brought exploration into line with the "scaling of effort" loop that those other game activities have. Perhaps FD didn't like that aspect of the ADS (pure speculation since they have not given any indication). Maybe other players had similar feelings to myself ... My idea was to maybe sweeten the deal to make the ADS mechanic a bit more in line with most of the other gameplay.

 

[ThatSmileyGuy]

I've always felt it was bonkers that the ADS could analyze and model a system of 70+ bodies in the same amount of time to model a system with a single body.

Now that i think of it it is backed up by logic. However the key aspect of this request is to facilitate going on a longer trip whilst not spending too much time in systems one would not consider worthy spendin time in.
Maybe the system mapper if reintroduced should take some time, but not too much, more like scaled with system size. But that would need to take maximum up to the time it used to take to jump in, scoop and charge the drive to allow a glance at the system map and a decision. So maybe up to 45 seconds to a minute?
FSS also has this disadvantage that You can't charge FSD while scanning.

 

[Riverside]

I can't remember if I mentioned it at the time but my thinking on the delayed reveal for a reinstated ADS is that it would address a major anomaly of the old ADS with respect to the gameplay loop. For example, if I can kill X pirates in an hour I could reasonably expect, all things being equal, that it would take 2 hours to kill 2X pirates. Similarly with mining for X tonnes in a hour, or prospecting for X materials etc.

I've always felt it was bonkers that the ADS could analyze and model a system of 70+ bodies in the same amount of time to model a system with a single body. I don't think it is accidental that it was called the "God honk". The introduction of the FSS brought exploration into line with the "scaling of effort" loop that those other game activities have. Perhaps FD didn't like that aspect of the ADS (pure speculation since they have not given any indication). Maybe other players had similar feelings to myself ... My idea was to maybe sweeten the deal to make the ADS mechanic a bit more in line with most of the other gameplay.

I've always thought it was a bit odd that I had to hold down a button for 5 seconds to reveal massive lumps of rock & gas when USSs and other ships are revealed on entry to a system.

But mostly I think it's pretty poor to needlessly remove game elements four years after launch and then say nothing for six months hoping the problem will go away. It's a simple oversight, the fix is equally simple.

 

[Burke]

But mostly I think it's pretty poor to needlessly remove game elements four years after launch and then say nothing for six months hoping the problem will go away.

This. This is the central issue for me. I feel cheated and disparaged by it. What happened to that award winning community management?

 

[ThatSmileyGuy]

This. This is the central issue for me. I feel cheated and disparaged by it. What happened to that award winning community management?

Possibly focused on more pressing matters. But i can't find them responding anywhere else beside the official threads. Not even on official discord channel. I'm not saying we are left alone nor implying that our words fall on deaf ears. But the silence doesn't help their image as noticed in threads on this forum, discord, reddit and many other places.
I wish FD good despite everything.