External View [A definitive discussion]

[Armour]

Right, just like they hit pause to go and put the kids to bed, or save their position and reload it after work the next day..

Pause and Save both suspend the game's "reality", they don't mess with it from within.

It's a game - but even if it were a hardcore sim (sigh, if only); their whole appeal lies in the fact that they're not RL.

I've flown several full simulators down at Gatwick and much of the fun for me was in slamming the hydraulics around (much to the engineer's concern). Unless you're actually training professionally, even the most hard-nosed sim is still a game. It's make-believe. Imaginative play. External views are a key benefit of playing sims.

If a sim places you in the body of a human avatar, I would disagree with any decision to allow unexplained external views in-play on the grounds that it's inconsistent with the reality represented. But that's just my POV. Suspension of disbelief is required to play any simulation game. I can deal with the whole flight model thing - 100% Spock would be dull, you need a little Kirk in the mix to make it fun - but I prefer drones as, even though there are still many questions that would need looking at with their use, they can be explained away and they offer many other benefits.

Like i said i've nothing against such drones - sounds like fun. But i'd also like to be able to watch them launch, fly or re-dock using the external cams...

It doesn't look like that's going to happen, based upon how previous dev posts on the subject. But this discussion is still fun, right?

Remember we're talking about additions to 1st person view, not 3rd person-only. And yes, shiny replays - in fact full editing facilities - would be a cool asset both for the community and consequently the Elite marque..

Sounds wonderfully Clarksonesque.

 

[BigDuke6ixx]

I disagree for the very sound reasons he's just listed..

And yet it's a tragically apt analogy, what with the current planes-in-space handling, complete with 'afterburners' to boot...

Your reasoning is far from sound.

 

[jabokai]

Yeah, a normal external view, just like you get when you're flying a plane, for example - I'm sure many pilots think "I wonder what this looks like, I'll just pop out the window and have a look for a minute". That's what normal pilots do, of course.

The space shuttle, IIRC, had a load of external views! Wasn't there a camera up on the tail that gave a pretty good "3rd person" view too?

Basically, your argument is rubbish, pick a better one.

 

[Niewinter]

please give me external view, no hud , target indicator just for the beauty of SPAAACCCCEEEE

 

[Robert Maynard]

It doesn't look like that's going to happen, based upon how previous dev posts on the subject. But this discussion is still fun, right?

Indeed:

I recognize that the most vocally stated reason for not wanting external views has to do with PvP balance, but that affects offline/solo/private-group play how, exactly?

That may be the communities stance on it but it's not ours. We don't want 3rd person view to be implemented in a non-fictional way as our current debug cameras act in our local builds. 3rd person view will be implemented at some point using drones that keep them firmly in the fiction of the universe and can't be used to give an alternative point of view for flying as that isn't how we want player's to experience the game. We want an in-cockpit experience for flying but 3rd person drones will allow you to inspect your ship or to do beauty shots etc.

 

[BigDuke6ixx]

The space shuttle, IIRC, had a load of external views! Wasn't there a camera up on the tail that gave a pretty good "3rd person" view too?

Basically, your argument is rubbish, pick a better one.

The shuttle pilots didn't fly with that view.

 

[jabokai]

The shuttle pilots didn't fly with that view.

Irrelevant, just like Armour's original "argument"... pick a better one.

 

[NeoRacer]

A drone would be cumbersome, add extra game mechanics to facilitate it when all we wanna do is see the outside of our ship to admire and/or take screen shots with. Not to fly with (although it should be possible to 'do things' while in 3p view or how else can we get dynamic shots of guns firing ect?!?) so the drone idea has always and will always be a farcical idea.

I think many people would agree with you. ie: They'd like to view their ship (& the surroundings) via external view to "sink deeper" into the game.

But it also seems clear that offering an external view might introduce a few game play abuses, hence the list(s) in the first post trying to list & address these. Assuming we have this list (& methods of addressing them) somewhat right, a drone would seem a logical way to explain those limitations while still keeping the external view in keeping with the games ethos.

In reality, like you, I personally don't care if the external view is via a drone or explained as black magic, as long as it's available. But I do understand some limitations/nerfs need to be built into it to prevent it causing some gameplay annoyances.

 

[NeilF]

so the drone idea has always and will always be a farcical idea.

Don't see how you can declare that without seeing it in action?

It may well give a nice nerfed solution offering no game/combat advantagedm while still providing a perfect way of seeing your ship and surroundings?

 

[BigDuke6ixx]

Irrelevant, just like Armour's original "argument"... pick a better one.

Yeah right. Got any more weak debating stratergires you can try? Unless you can come up with something better, I just have to leave you to mass debate all you your own.

 

[jabokai]

Yeah right. Got any more weak debating stratergires you can try? Unless you can come up with something better, I just have to leave you to mass debate all you your own.

Cheers mate!

On topic - the devs have repeatedly said that realism is not a prime factor in the game design. Gameplay/fun is more important. Now, it's basically just a matter of opinion on third person views, realism is irrelevant.

 

[Armour]

The space shuttle, IIRC, had a load of external views! Wasn't there a camera up on the tail that gave a pretty good "3rd person" view too?

Basically, your argument is rubbish, pick a better one.

Is that an independent external view? It shows some of the outside of the shuttle, sure, but from one fixed angle (or a range from one fixed point). That's not what people have been asking for. They seem to be after a freely positionable camera that is able to view the whole of the craft from whatever POV they feel like. Could your shuttle example do that? No.

Basically, your example is rubbish, pick a better one

 

[jabokai]

Is that an independent external view? It shows some of the outside of the shuttle, sure, but from one fixed angle (or a range from one fixed point). That's not what people have been asking for.

People have been asking for a lot of different things. And, as per my last post, realism is not a deciding factor.

 

[Armour]

People have been asking for a lot of different things. And, as per my last post, realism is not a deciding factor.

You are right on your last point, fun should trump "realistic" gameplay - but looking at stuff isn't gameplay.

Unless, for instance, you make the looking at stuff part of the gameplay, by including espionage or lookout missions or the like...but how would such missions be achieved by your commander?

I know, we could have in-game camera drones that could be used to carry out the "looking at stuff" missions. Great idea!

Anyway, it looks like the decision has already been made in favour of drones - at least according to that post by Mr Evans. So this is all moot.

 

[jabokai]

You are right on your last point, fun should trump "realistic" gameplay - but looking at stuff isn't gameplay.

Unless, for instance, you make the looking at stuff part of the gameplay, by including espionage or lookout missions or the like...but how would such missions be achieved by your commander?

I know, we could have in-game camera drones that could be used to carry out the "looking at stuff" missions. Great idea!

Anyway, it looks like the decision has already been made in favour of drones - at least according to that post by Mr Evans. So this is all moot.

Looking isn't gameplay but, to some, it is part of the fun. Personally I have no issue with 3rd person or no but I'd rather it was an option for people who like it. As I've said loads of times I don't care at all about the supposed combat advantages/disadvantages as I'm just not that competitive.

As you say, it looks like drones will be the answer to the question and I'm fine with that too.

 

[Krait_79]

Personally I don't want an external view whilst flying. Though I'm not opposed to it being an option for those that I would. What I would like is at the end of each flight the option to review it in an external mode as that would be useful for those who want to make youtube vids etc. Would also mean there would be more point in having a paint job for your ship.

 

[Phoenix13]

I'm not gonna lie, it really bothers me that I can't see my spacecraft from an external view. I agree that during all gameplay it should be not allowed. But maybe if you are completely stopped you can switch to an external to take cool pics with a planet in the background, but only have camera controls until a few seconds after you switch back to cockpit.

 

[JughedJones]

Cheers mate!

On topic - the devs have repeatedly said that realism is not a prime factor in the game design. Gameplay/fun is more important. Now, it's basically just a matter of opinion on third person views, realism is irrelevant.

This is hilarious.

I've seen the devs mention that certain things like how the ship handles and not allowing for infinite speed with infinite thrust had to be tweaked for the sake of gameplay... however... 'Not a Prime Factor' does not equal 'Irrelevant.'

Further, could you please provide a link to the devs saying that realism isn't a 'prime factor' in their design decisions? Since you say it is repeated so often, surely that wouldn't be too hard.

You're bad at arguing a point, sir.

 

[jabokai]

This is hilarious.

I've seen the devs mention that certain things like how the ship handles and not allowing for infinite speed with infinite thrust had to be tweaked for the sake of gameplay... however... 'Not a Prime Factor' does not equal 'Irrelevant.'

You're bad at arguing a point, sir.

Fair point, how about "realism is a much, much lower consideration than gameplay and fun"?

 

[JughedJones]

Fair point, how about "realism is a much, much lower consideration than gameplay and fun"?

Citation needed.