Elite: Dangerous is seriously underrated

Absolutely nothing wrong. I just would like to understand it better. If you do not that is fine aswell, knock yourself out.

I think you're just trolling the thread Viajero. ED is a good game, we all like it (or want to like it) but most of us can see that it has fallen short of expectations. You are trying to be divisive and defensive rather than looking for common ground.

It doesn't matter whether you think those expectations are justified, people are just saying what they think with a greater or lesser degree of justification.

I like this game, I only wish there were more of it. I paid for more of it (not less), and I am still waiting.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Could you name a few games that can be considered competition to ED?

Well, that would mean discussing what I consider to be competition to Elite, which may not be what you or Sunleader consider competition. Not my intent at all at this stage I am afraid.

I just want to understand Sunleader´s view of what is competition for Elite as he was the one originally saying it does not have any, and I am curious to understand why that is. Once that is more clear then we can revisit your question if it becomes relevant to the discussion.
 
Well, that would mean discussing what I consider to be competition to Elite, which may not be what you or Sunleader consider competition. Not my intent at all at this stage I am afraid.

I just want to understand Sunleader´s view of what is competition for Elite as he was the one originally saying it does not have any, and I am curious to understand why that is. Once that is more clear then we can revisit your question if it becomes relevant to the discussion.
With all respect, if you make an assertion like "Elite certainly has competition.", then please be ready to support assertions like that with factual arguments, because otherwise they could be considered trolling.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
With all respect, if you make an assertion like "Elite certainly has competition.", then please be ready to support assertions like that with factual arguments, because otherwise they could be considered trolling.

I am not trolling, but I would much rather wait until Sunleader responds to my original question, if he wants to of course. And then continue the discussion on that basis. Just bear with me until that happens, if it happens.
 
What you're talking about is EVE, ED will never be that. That being said, it sure as hell needs fleshing out for damn sure

EVE is a very Different kind of Game.

What do you mean exactly by lack of competition?

Well. I mean exactly that.
Currently Elite Dangerous has rather little Competition right now.
Or rather. So far it has absolutely no Competition at all.


Now for the Definition I am not really that Picky.
Anyone is Free to make his own Definition.
But in General currently there is no Game that Cuts into the Niche where Elite Dangerous is Sitting.

Now the few Games commonly Mentioned.
EVE Online does not offer Direct Ship Control. Its not a Game for Pilots.
Star Citizen might be Serious Competition when it ever gets Finished.
X4 Foundations is Single Player.

And there the List of Potential Competition really Ends.


And here is the thing.
Each of these Games.
Actually is vastly Superior to Elite Dangerous on the Aspect of the Gameworld actually feeling Unique and Alive.
Each of these Games. Despite their Gameworld being massively Smaller. Actually manages to have a far more Interesting World than Elite Dangerous :)

(Oh by the way since we are with Definitions. I Define the Gameworld of a Game as the Games entire Background. So its not just about the Map but about the entire World of that Game. So what is the Player allowed to Do. What is the Player allowed to possess, What kind of Story and Politics are going on in the World, How much Live is in the World that is not dependent on the Player, How does Technology and Physics Work etc etc etc.)
 

Guest193293

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You've created an amazing thread, Commander: only 84 (approx) responses and over 6,000 views ! How did you manage that !! ? 🤩

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EVE is a very Different kind of Game.



Well. I mean exactly that.
Currently Elite Dangerous has rather little Competition right now.
Or rather. So far it has absolutely no Competition at all.


Now for the Definition I am not really that Picky.
Anyone is Free to make his own Definition.
But in General currently there is no Game that Cuts into the Niche where Elite Dangerous is Sitting.

Now the few Games commonly Mentioned.
EVE Online does not offer Direct Ship Control. Its not a Game for Pilots.
Star Citizen might be Serious Competition when it ever gets Finished.
X4 Foundations is Single Player.

And there the List of Potential Competition really Ends.


And here is the thing.
Each of these Games.
Actually is vastly Superior to Elite Dangerous on the Aspect of the Gameworld actually feeling Unique and Alive.
Each of these Games. Despite their Gameworld being massively Smaller. Actually manages to have a far more Interesting World than Elite Dangerous :)

(Oh by the way since we are with Definitions. I Define the Gameworld of a Game as the Games entire Background. So its not just about the Map but about the entire World of that Game. So what is the Player allowed to Do. What is the Player allowed to possess, What kind of Story and Politics are going on in the World, How much Live is in the World that is not dependent on the Player, How does Technology and Physics Work etc etc etc.)
My thoughts on why it has no competition: It has been around in one form or another for thirty something years. It was unique and awesome when it first came out in the 80's, and it has evolved thru several versions since then, getting bigger and more complex each time. This is just the current version of a game that has been around for a long time. Is there anyone else out there doing anything remotely similar who can claim all of the above?

And from a business perspective, if your business has grown like FDev's has over such a long period of time it means they have a good business model. What a lot of people don't realise is that running a business is not easy. The vast majority of new businesses fail in their first year. You can have all the talent in the world for crafting games but still fail miserably in business. In fact because of the failure rate of small businesses, odds are you will fail!

So yeah, they ain't got no competition, and I am not sure they will for a heckuva long time, if ever.

Just as well I love the product and am very, very happy playing it.
 
I actually think that Elite Dangerous is heavily Overrated.

Dont get me wrong there.
Its nice that the Ship in this Game can effectively go wherever it wants.

But if everything is the same with little to nothing to do where you go.
Then the whole Deal is Off.


Elite Dangerous tries to be a Gigantic Sandbox.
But the Box is the Size of Public Swimming Pool. While the Sand in it is barely enough to Fill a Bathtube...


Thats what they got by having the whole thing Random Generated.
A Random Generated World can be Endless in Size. But as anything Generated by it is Limited by the Parameters you Input into the Random Generator. You will end up with an Endless World that is more or less the same wherever you go.

Thats why using a World Generator is only useful when you use it to Create a Base for the World and then Fill that World with Handcrafted Elements that make each part of it Unique.
But in ED this is Impossible. The Generated World is just too Large for anyone to even Dream about Filling it with Handcrafted Elements and making each part Unique. Even Dreaming about just making 1% of the World Unique by Handcrafting Content for it would be entirely Insane.

For Elite Dangerous the only way to be an Interesting Game is to Abandon the World and instead Focus on Ships and Empire Building.
Player Owned Stations, Fleets and Clans, Proper Wars about Territory instead of Generic Conflict Zones, Fleshed out Planets including Planetary Settlements and Proper World Design, Larger Ships that are more than Oversized Fighters, Proper Crew Mechanics, Ship Interior and Space Legs, Proper Ground Vehicles, Proper and more Diverse Weapon Systems which are not Defaulted to 1 out of 3 Systems.

Instead of Focusing on the World. Where even 20 Years of Work will remain a Droplet in the oversized Bucket. They should Try and Improve the Detailed Systems of the Game to Give Players something to do in this Sandbox.
This Oversized but Empty World is the First Time in History that a Game actually has a World where it could Allow Players and Clans to Own entire Star Systems and Stations in a Multiplayer Game. Without having to Worry that the Game World will be Spammed to Death by Player Owned Structures due to there being too many Player Structures in a too Small World.


But FD isnt doing any of this.
FD instead is absolutely Determined to Focus on their Giant Dead World Instead. And keep adding Fractions of Droplets to the Bucket hoping that one day they might reach a Droplet Big enough make a difference.

And thats why this Game is Overrated.
Everyone tries to Sell this Game by mentioning its Gigantic World.
While Leisurely Ignoring that this World is basicly just a Gigantic Piece of Copypasted RNG Solar Systems which ultimately all look roughly the same after a month or two playing this Game.
There's plenty to do. I just took up mining. Blew up my first asteroid full of diamonds. Made a small fortune, enough to A rate another module on my annie. Once I have A rated everything then I'm gonna get Horizons and do a bit of engineering. Then I'm gonna wing up with some fellow righteous commanders and hunt down all the griefers and Judge Dredd their asses!

I actually think that Elite Dangerous is heavily Overrated.

Dont get me wrong there.
Its nice that the Ship in this Game can effectively go wherever it wants.

But if everything is the same with little to nothing to do where you go.
Then the whole Deal is Off.


Elite Dangerous tries to be a Gigantic Sandbox.
But the Box is the Size of Public Swimming Pool. While the Sand in it is barely enough to Fill a Bathtube...


Thats what they got by having the whole thing Random Generated.
A Random Generated World can be Endless in Size. But as anything Generated by it is Limited by the Parameters you Input into the Random Generator. You will end up with an Endless World that is more or less the same wherever you go.

Thats why using a World Generator is only useful when you use it to Create a Base for the World and then Fill that World with Handcrafted Elements that make each part of it Unique.
But in ED this is Impossible. The Generated World is just too Large for anyone to even Dream about Filling it with Handcrafted Elements and making each part Unique. Even Dreaming about just making 1% of the World Unique by Handcrafting Content for it would be entirely Insane.

For Elite Dangerous the only way to be an Interesting Game is to Abandon the World and instead Focus on Ships and Empire Building.
Player Owned Stations, Fleets and Clans, Proper Wars about Territory instead of Generic Conflict Zones, Fleshed out Planets including Planetary Settlements and Proper World Design, Larger Ships that are more than Oversized Fighters, Proper Crew Mechanics, Ship Interior and Space Legs, Proper Ground Vehicles, Proper and more Diverse Weapon Systems which are not Defaulted to 1 out of 3 Systems.

Instead of Focusing on the World. Where even 20 Years of Work will remain a Droplet in the oversized Bucket. They should Try and Improve the Detailed Systems of the Game to Give Players something to do in this Sandbox.
This Oversized but Empty World is the First Time in History that a Game actually has a World where it could Allow Players and Clans to Own entire Star Systems and Stations in a Multiplayer Game. Without having to Worry that the Game World will be Spammed to Death by Player Owned Structures due to there being too many Player Structures in a too Small World.


But FD isnt doing any of this.
FD instead is absolutely Determined to Focus on their Giant Dead World Instead. And keep adding Fractions of Droplets to the Bucket hoping that one day they might reach a Droplet Big enough make a difference.

And thats why this Game is Overrated.
Everyone tries to Sell this Game by mentioning its Gigantic World.
While Leisurely Ignoring that this World is basicly just a Gigantic Piece of Copypasted RNG Solar Systems which ultimately all look roughly the same after a month or two playing this Game.
Actually the sandbox is pretty big....sorta the size of the galaxy.... which is uh, really big......

I actually think that Elite Dangerous is heavily Overrated.

Dont get me wrong there.
Its nice that the Ship in this Game can effectively go wherever it wants.

But if everything is the same with little to nothing to do where you go.
Then the whole Deal is Off.


Elite Dangerous tries to be a Gigantic Sandbox.
But the Box is the Size of Public Swimming Pool. While the Sand in it is barely enough to Fill a Bathtube...


Thats what they got by having the whole thing Random Generated.
A Random Generated World can be Endless in Size. But as anything Generated by it is Limited by the Parameters you Input into the Random Generator. You will end up with an Endless World that is more or less the same wherever you go.

Thats why using a World Generator is only useful when you use it to Create a Base for the World and then Fill that World with Handcrafted Elements that make each part of it Unique.
But in ED this is Impossible. The Generated World is just too Large for anyone to even Dream about Filling it with Handcrafted Elements and making each part Unique. Even Dreaming about just making 1% of the World Unique by Handcrafting Content for it would be entirely Insane.

For Elite Dangerous the only way to be an Interesting Game is to Abandon the World and instead Focus on Ships and Empire Building.
Player Owned Stations, Fleets and Clans, Proper Wars about Territory instead of Generic Conflict Zones, Fleshed out Planets including Planetary Settlements and Proper World Design, Larger Ships that are more than Oversized Fighters, Proper Crew Mechanics, Ship Interior and Space Legs, Proper Ground Vehicles, Proper and more Diverse Weapon Systems which are not Defaulted to 1 out of 3 Systems.

Instead of Focusing on the World. Where even 20 Years of Work will remain a Droplet in the oversized Bucket. They should Try and Improve the Detailed Systems of the Game to Give Players something to do in this Sandbox.
This Oversized but Empty World is the First Time in History that a Game actually has a World where it could Allow Players and Clans to Own entire Star Systems and Stations in a Multiplayer Game. Without having to Worry that the Game World will be Spammed to Death by Player Owned Structures due to there being too many Player Structures in a too Small World.


But FD isnt doing any of this.
FD instead is absolutely Determined to Focus on their Giant Dead World Instead. And keep adding Fractions of Droplets to the Bucket hoping that one day they might reach a Droplet Big enough make a difference.

And thats why this Game is Overrated.
Everyone tries to Sell this Game by mentioning its Gigantic World.
While Leisurely Ignoring that this World is basicly just a Gigantic Piece of Copypasted RNG Solar Systems which ultimately all look roughly the same after a month or two playing this Game.
Actually it's not all randomly generated, parts of it are handcrafted e.g. Leonard Nimoy station. Looks very different from the other stations. Not sure of the significance if the palm trees tho....

Honestly Said it barely Does anymore.
Nor has Elite Dangerous really Reached the amount of Hours that a Game like this should have Reached.
My ED has 400 Hours in it. Which it had for like 2 Years now. Only going up a few Hours further every 2 or 3 Months.

Dont get me Wrong. I still somehow Cling to the Hope. That one Day FD will Realize just what kind of Opportunity they have under their Fingers.
And Starts to get their Rears Strapped into Working Gears to Finally make something of it.
So I always now and then Check Back in the Forums and the Game to See if something has Changed.
And if they for a Change pay some Attention to the Game Systems instead of the World.
For example by finally giving some Mechanics to Mining Asteroids. And actually doing something to Create Interesting Gameplay in the World instead of trying to improve on the World itself which makes barely any Difference.
I will Tick the Game Up a few Hours again.
But since 90% of their Efforts is still Focused on the World and not on adding any Gameplay to it. The Hours soon stop Ticking again.


Unless Star Citizen against all Odds decides to stop smoking up its area and instead gets to work on actually Realizing a Game.
Elite Dangerous Remains the Biggest Hope for a Proper Space Sim.

But being the Biggest Hope due to Lack of Competition is not really a Complement now is it ?
I think ED is really not the game for you. You need to move on, somewhere out there the perfect game is waiting for you. Your mission is to find that game. Good luck commander, we're all rooting for you!
 
Yeah and I think I heard something about a Forbes report into "financial mismanagement" by the guy in charge of Star Citizen. Was not paying much attention tho, probably because I havn't invested any money in it! Anyone else heard about that?
There are entire threads...
But the financial thing is that allegations were made that kickstarter money may have been diverted to buying a mansion, instead of, you know, making a game...
At least that's my read on it, but like you, I'm not invested and haven't looked deeper than the Forbes report.
 
I think you're just trolling the thread Viajero. ED is a good game, we all like it (or want to like it) but most of us can see that it has fallen short of expectations. You are trying to be divisive and defensive rather than looking for common ground.

It doesn't matter whether you think those expectations are justified, people are just saying what they think with a greater or lesser degree of justification.

I like this game, I only wish there were more of it. I paid for more of it (not less), and I am still waiting.
I paid $40 for the base game and I have spent months playing that. I think I got a lot more than my money's worth!
 
In my opinion it is neither. Allow me to elaborate:

Let me start with this: I'm still pretty new at Elite, A bit under 72 hours total but it'll climb bit by bit every day (or at least for now)
Now on to my explanation.

Elite Dangerous has the reputation it deserves right now. The game while feeling great isn't that deep but let's start with the good parts.
Starting with the flying:
While i have played games like Elite namely Freelancer (that game is an old masterpiece seriously, if you haven't played it yet you should), Strike suit zero, X rebirth (i played it because i couldn't get Elite Dangerous at the time) and out of these games Elite feels the most free and engaging to use. I changed the pitch and roll control immediately because it felt seriously clunky to me but past that it's great how you can control nearly everything your ship does. Flight assist is great as well for flying with a feeling that you are actually flying in space.
Combat:
While i didn't really engage that much in combat (i'm a trader at heart) i do still enjoy the parts that i did, the human NPC's have a good difficulty to them at higher levels but are reasonably easy at lower levels and thus perfect to start out and invest time into it. Thargoids are a fun challenge (even though i was pretty much carried by the CMDRs i was flying with) and man do they sound good. Which brings me to my next point.
Sounds and effects:
Elite dangerous is a great looking game and sounding game. My Elite runs on mid settings considering i have a GTX 1050 and i prioritise FPS over textures. i started up ED for the first time, got in my sidewinder and thought it's running on ultra so i went to my settings to find that the graphics were on Mid, it's funny that many games of that release time have graphics on ultra that look worse than Elite Dangerous on mid. And the sound, man that's a gem as well. I remember the first time the countdown started for the FSD and was struck with an adrenaline rush for how cool it was both in effects and sound.
Other mechanics:
Things like Asteroid Core Mining while being relatively new are engaging and fun to do (albeït tedious at times, yes i'm looking at you pulse scanner), they sound and look their part too. Cracking open an asteroid for the first time was again a great experience and i never grow tired of it.

Now let's go to the bad as well, let's not kid ourselves there's quite a few.
Bugs:
Don't get me wrong here every game has bugs but Elite has some bugs that really need to be ironed out. Like the Wing core mining bug where your charge will explode right away even though it shouldn't and the likes. Again bugs are normal so it can somewhat be excused.
The map:
Elite Dangerous has a massive and i mean MASSIVE map, but that comes with a catch. The map was clearly created by an automatic engine, this resulted in a general pattern to be present in nearly all systems. Most systems will have 1 or 2 main orbits around the sun and some lesser orbits around the main orbits. This results in a reduction of variety.
In-Game purchases:
To me this is kind of a big one but to others it most likely isn't. For me being able to customize everything is a big thing in these kind of games, i like to look good and i will skip certain ships just because i don't like how they look (the Fer-De-Lance for example). But any and all vanity is locked behind a paywall. Elite Dangerous is certainly not expensive (25 euro's here) it is still a game you buy to then have to spend more money on said game. Now don't get me wrong here, i don't hate it. With how niche this game is it's a big thing to still get revenue after sales but it'd like there to be at least some options that i can buy with credits instead of everything with real money only.
Missions:
Missions give all if you're trying to get a more expensive ship, my python for example would've taken me at least 1680 hours to get if i was earning credits at the rate i was doing missions. After 60 hours of playtime i had roughly 14M overall (6M in credits, 8m in assets) when i was doing the highest earning missions i could do. Considering the ship i was going for was an Imperial clipper i'd need around 140M credits to buy and fit it properly.
In-game help:
While i hate games holding your hand (like COD or any recently released game for that matter) the way Elite Dangerous just throws you out is also a bad thing. Things like Core mining, ranks, reputation, outfitting prices and so on you'd be crazy to say you don't have much to do. But a new player won't know that, they'll see the surface of everything (mining with mining lasers, missions, some trading which is all somewhat explained) but not the rest because none of this is ever even mentioned. Finding things out for yourself is great and all but not being able to know anything because nothing is ever mentioned isn't a good thing. Or at least in my opinion.
Ship and weapon variety:
While not being a really big point it's still worth mentioning. Elite doesn't have much in terms of variety, ships have not many classes they are classified in and not many ships in said classifications: Fighters (8 ships), freighters (5 ships), multipurpose (8 ships) and passanger (3 ships, one of which DLC locked). Compare that to Freelancer (a game released in 2000) has 2 main classes: Fighter (25 ships total) and frieghter (6 ships) with Fighter having 3 sub classes: light (11 ships), heavy (9 ships) and very heavy (5 ships). Freelancer while being a way older game (elite coming out a whopping 14 years later) has more ships in it's fighter class than Elite does in total (don't believe me? check out the Freelancer wiki: https://freelancer.fandom.com/wiki/Vessel_Types). Weapons however are about the same, that still isn't great though.

But with that let's end this with a high note. I love Elite Dangerous, i really do. Its community, or at least what i interacted with, is great and seriously helpful. The gameplay is great and the sounds are perfect! Keep in mind all of these pro's and cons are my opinion so you might not agree with me.

See you out there commanders o7
 
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One might argue it's underrated in terms of hype / media coverage. I know many more people who have heard of No Man's Sky, Eve Online, and Star Citizen than who have heard about Elite Dangerous.
I can agree on that. Though it might also be because Elite Dangerous doesn't invest in a lot of marketing. I get a lot of ads for No man's Sky, Eve and the likes but never from Elite Dangerous.
 
You dont get to decide whether or not i visit the forums. I bought the game and i have the privilege of expressing myself on these forums the same as anyone who paid money for elite dangerous.

Tho i do admit seeing white knights indignant response to justified criticism of the game gives me a chuckle, reason enough to vist the forum :)

He didnt decide or tell you to stop coming, he asked a genuine question: why do a dozen or so deeply frustrated and bitter people keep visiting the forums of a game they clearly dislike, just to moan and whine for years on end?

I mean, "I have the right to!" isn't incorrect, but it isn't an answer either.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
EVE is a very Different kind of Game.



Well. I mean exactly that.
Currently Elite Dangerous has rather little Competition right now.
Or rather. So far it has absolutely no Competition at all.


Now for the Definition I am not really that Picky.
Anyone is Free to make his own Definition.
But in General currently there is no Game that Cuts into the Niche where Elite Dangerous is Sitting.

Now the few Games commonly Mentioned.
EVE Online does not offer Direct Ship Control. Its not a Game for Pilots.
Star Citizen might be Serious Competition when it ever gets Finished.
X4 Foundations is Single Player.

And there the List of Potential Competition really Ends.


And here is the thing.
Each of these Games.
Actually is vastly Superior to Elite Dangerous on the Aspect of the Gameworld actually feeling Unique and Alive.
Each of these Games. Despite their Gameworld being massively Smaller. Actually manages to have a far more Interesting World than Elite Dangerous :)

(Oh by the way since we are with Definitions. I Define the Gameworld of a Game as the Games entire Background. So its not just about the Map but about the entire World of that Game. So what is the Player allowed to Do. What is the Player allowed to possess, What kind of Story and Politics are going on in the World, How much Live is in the World that is not dependent on the Player, How does Technology and Physics Work etc etc etc.)

Yeah, understood.

I agree with you that Elite is unique in many respects. For example as far as I am aware Elite is the first (and possibly only) persistent MMO based on a first person cockpit simulation experience with twitch controls (as opposed to mouse click like in EVE or WoW). And it also offers a combined set of features few other game offer at the moment.

Granted, if you define competition as in "any other games that do what Elite does, or close" then you will be hard pressed to find many games that compete. The only option left as of today would be pretty much to clone Elite. But I personally think that would be to narrow the scope of the definition so dramatically that it would render the discussion a bit moot and useless. Successful games tipically and often tend to be succesful precisely because they manage to differentiate themselves well enough from others, weather it is in actual innovative game features, or improved quality of old proven ones, or great graphics, or great social features, or great marketing or... etc. And that is hard, it requires good planning and execution.

More critically and to the point here you also seem to think, and correct me if I am wrong, that a lack other games in this very specific and narrow niche would prevent FDEV from being motivated to improve or do better. And this is the part where I think you may be missing a new angle, so let me put a different spin on what you may consider competition.

As I said before I indeed think there is competition for Elite. Actually I think that, without realizing it, you also agree 😋 :

Each of these Games.
Actually is vastly Superior to Elite Dangerous on the Aspect of the Gameworld actually feeling Unique and Alive.

That is one example, and I fully agree that other games may do things better than Elite in certain areas. But that precisley means competition because at one point or another some players that may be considering spending time or money in Elite may decide to spend that time and money with any of those other games instead because in their view they may do some of those things better. And I am pretty sure we can find without great difficulty a few clear examples of those in this very forum 😁

In other words, you do not need another game or games that fall squarely into what you describe as "the Niche where Elite Dangerous is Sitting" to generate that competion. Games compete every day on the basis of partial overlap of feature sets that players of every walk of life may find attractive.

FDEV probably knows this very well, and follows relatively closely the development of games that share some of the themes or features that Elite has. Games like EVE, NMS, Space Engineers, Kerbal, Astroneer, Evochron, Hellion. Even non game software like Space Engine or projects of games in development such as Star Citizen are already competing with Elite for some of the same players time and money (almost 300 million dollars there suggest as much). Now some of us may be able to spend both time and money in more than one of these, but that does not detract an atom from the fact that the competition is very real and the developers of each of those are in competition either in most or some of the features of their games and projects.

This competition, has been there since day 1. For example, the Star Citizen kickstarter was about the same time as Elite´s and I would bet that FDEV´s project execution plan was somewhat influenced (even if it was just so to decide the Elite´s launch date and some elements of the scope that would go into it) by the public views and plan for SC coming from Chris Roberts. And viceversa.

All those represent very real competition that makes a dev team to try and stretch and strive to deliver better and/or faster, or all of the above, than others. The results obviously are for each of us to judge, these may be better at times, not so good at others (competition alone does not guarantee good results), but that is by the by, the incentive for FDEV to stretch and improve Elite is there thanks to all that competition since day 1.
 
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